Omenbringer

30 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

I do really think the biggest issue Malifaux has with creating a diverse set of options is the communities resistance to identify the state of the game.  The game has existed for a very long time and we've still got new players jumping in with Mei Feng going through the same cycle of trying to make her work I've seen since M2E launched.  At some point the community needs to have an honest evaluation of how competitive options are so we can have an honest conversation of how to bring more masters on to the competetive stage.

Thank you!

@Dogmantra

While I agree with a lot you have stated in your posts I don't know if I would agree that Wyrd has done a great job of balancing the Strats/ Schemes and models.

As I stated in my previous post, many have recognized (particularly the competitive environs) that the symmetric Strats and extremely limited variety in win conditions of both Strats and Schemes (kill this or control that, usually around the center line) are easily exploitable (A Line in the Sand or Convict Labor are always available to choose). This is one reason why net lists are so popular, most of them (at least the most lauded ones) don't care about the generated Strat or available Schemes since they are tooled to both kill quickly and dominate the center line.

Also as LunarSol  points out, the existence of the Netlists really shows that a lot of the range is just not viewed as a competitive option, even by players that don't consider themselves competitive caliber. It is a common mantra in the Guild forums that you start with Francisco and 2 Guild Austringers then add a Master. For the most part every Faction has something similar that they state when asked about a list. The biggest issues occur with models that have Acting Values in the 7-8 range.

In my opinion the best method of combating netlists is to increase the pool of models that are considered worthwhile options, make the Strats more asymmetric, and focus on really balancing the Schemes (I would even be in favor of restricting available Schemes to the specific Strat a player generated). This requires both stepping down the obviously over the top and pushing up the slugs (and I would say that doing it via upgrades is a really poor method). I think  a lot of us could agree on what would be included in the over the top list.

To do all of this though requires a breather for the game. I am hopeful that The Otherside will allow this to happen.

I would say even Headhunter falls into the Kill Something group, though has the added caveat that you must have either enough models or AP to capitalize on the killing of the model to score.

On 9/6/2016 at 6:02 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

Every once in a while someone comes to a Faction-specific forum and posts a list and asks whether it's a good one or not. Within minutes someone comes along to tell them that there are no fixed lists in Malifaux and that you need to tailor your list to the battlefield, opponent and strat and scheme pools.

Yet it seems that the US meta is ruled by fixed lists. It seems that most of the major tournaments are being won by lists that don't customize any but rather run the same list come hell or high water and win every game.

So I was thinking that maybe we could discuss this. A couple of questions that you may or may not take into account when formulating an opinion:

How come? And is this common in the UK scene as well?

Is this good for the game?

Should we start telling the list-posters that yeah, that's a nice list but consider switching that Baby Kade for an Illuminated?

Any other thoughts on the matter?

Question 1:

I would say there are a few reasons for this. First, fixed lists have an advantage in competitive circles because it limits the amount of interactions one has to learn while playing their crew. This usually leads to better performance, particularly if the interactions strongly favor a few key factors, i.e. efficiency, speed, versatility, durability, control, and/or denial. The models that possess more of these key factors will generally win out over other choices regardless of the Strats/ Schemes generated.

While the "build to the strategies/ schemes" folks are correct that focusing on them during crew building can afford a player better opportunity to complete them, constantly changing crews has often been more of a detriment than a boon. I am far more competent with Somer (a crew I have played for many, many years) even when the Strat/ Scheme doesn't favor him, than I am with any of the other crews I can purpose build for Strats/ Schemes (and I have access to a great amount of crews in all factions) simply because I rarely forget the interactions of Som'er and his staples. Even restricting yourself to a single faction doesn't really ease the difficulty of consistently recalling the key abilities that make one model better in specific Strats/ Schemes than others.

Second, many Masters really need specific models to be effective with their shtick. The models that tend to be hired (or summoned) are also generally influenced by how well they can contribute to the key factors mentioned above.

Thirdly, though there seem to be a lot of Strategies and Schemes to draw from, they all generally equate to "kill something" or "control space" near the middle of the table (though middle line is probably a better descriptor). Again these strongly favor the handful of models that can do these things well. While there are schemes that invite players to venture deeper into their opponents half of the board, those are usually ignored in competitive environs because they are much more difficult to achieve than the ones that occur very near the center area of the board, where an awful lot of the Strategies tend to score.

Lastly, I would say that some of the more devastating "fixed lists" (the Papa in a Box and pre-errata Ratjoy) are working to exploit design flaws with the game. If you can kill a large portion of your opponents crew early in the game and/ or restrict them to their deployment zone (or very near it), then there is often little they can do to score VP's. The simple fact is that focusing on killing models is still a consistent path to victory in most cases. Restricted time limits in competitive events really exacerbate the issue further.

Question 2:

No it is not good for the game.

While some people love net listing and don't mind taking un-fluffy crews, I would argue that most players just want to play the crew that is most visually appealing to them. One of the big draws to Malifaux (at least for me and the majority of players that I have talked to about it) is the "character" aspect of the game. The game feels more like playing an RPG than a traditional TTG, especially because of the card mechanic (more control over what happens), though the old Asymmetric Strategies and chosen Schemes from 1st edition assisted that quite a bit (if you haven't played the game that way I would strongly encourage a run through of the story encounter version of M2e). Net listing runs counter to this appeal, and really just show cases that there are large imbalances in the game. This is not good for Wyrd who I am sure would really prefer to sell across their entire line instead of just the handful of models that are better than everything else.

Question 3:

Though you can surely try and steer players toward other choices it is unlikely to have an effect unless the alternative is at least very near par with the optimized choice. An Ice Golem is not equal to Snow Storm or an Arcane Emissary, regardless of how much we try to dress it up.

On 9/6/2016 at 8:18 AM, -Loki- said:

This thread makes me so glad I'm not very competitive.

Thematic crews is what drew me to the game.

I can not agree more. I really wish the "character" aspect of the game was re-emphasized.

On 9/6/2016 at 1:01 PM, #Maxi said:

Book 1 or 4 it's not the core of the problem.. the core is that there are models that, for the same cost (or even less) do more things and are better under every aspect than others. That brings to fixed lists imho.

This is very true, though I would argue that many models from the newer books fall into this group.

Many of the "problem" models are just head and shoulders above anything else that you would even think of hiring (or summoning) in a game.

Loki even bending panels didn't fully solve the issue, the rubber bands (and I had to use quite a few) did a lot more to aid construction.

Dogmantra are you using a Foil card?

While the Plastcraft stuff is nice it can be a pain to put together because they love to curve their walls. Rubber bands help during assembly. Also they don't print on both sides so one side will be just the base color.

21 hours ago, -Loki- said:

What puts me off 4ground is mostly the scale. It's true 28mm while Malifaux is 32mmm so everyone looks slightly too big around the buildings. Doesn't bother some people, and I normally don't mind slight variations in scale, but it irritates me with 4grounds stuff. That's why I really want Plastcraft to do some more ColourED ranges for Malifaux, or at least redo their original city stuff as ColourED.

 

 

A bit surprising as I found the opposite actually, the Plastcraft stuff is quite a bit larger than other terrain makers ranges so the models (on their bases) look correctly proportioned to the structures. It does look odd though when you have an assortment of buildings from different manufacturers (4 ground is quite a bit smaller than Plastcraft).

I would like them to produce more sets though would love if they would start printing on both sides and stop including curved wall connections.

On 9/4/2016 at 5:03 AM, Butch said:

I like the Wolsung and Wild West Exodus buildings from Micro Art Studio.

And the western buildings from the small german shop War Mage.

The Wild West Exodus set is nice though again a bit small compared to the Plastcraft stuff. It is a bit of a value though and if you get multiple sets it is easy enough to kit bash more complex structures.

On 9/3/2016 at 0:29 PM, Captain Black said:

Game mat's, Hmm now would you go for Cloth, PVC, or mousepad type? Not having any experience of game mat's what would you suggest?

For game mats it is difficult to beat just producing your own. A cheap drop cloth (washed and dried first is a good idea), couple tubes of paintable caulking, and some crumpled tin foil (to texture the caulking) makes very nice mats (depending upon the size of your drop cloth it could make quite a few). It doesn't take that long either most of the time is spent letting it dry.

If purchasing though I like the vinyl ones as opposed to the mouse pad ones.

I would use more light in your next photo. Ophelia looks very nicely done though.

They are quite a bit smaller than I thought they would be, but they do look nice.

As of last night when I emailed them about the Terraclips sets, they had Sewers (lots of places still have these) and Prison of the Forsaken. These two actually compliment each other very well and if you have a suitable mat to base them on (so you dont have to use the floor tiles for your lowest level) can easily provide enough terrain for an engaging table with many different layouts.

Given the OP is in the UK 4Ground is likely your best option.

I would strongly recommend you use a custom blend of products to keep your paints coherent and fluid. Like you I also go long periods between painting stints, however since using the the following mix I have had virtually no issues with paints drying out or losing coherency (some paints, usually Metallics, are just a pain to keep coherent for long periods of time).

Here is the mix I recommend with ratios:

• 1 Part Liquitex Gloss Medium
• 1 Part Liquitex Matte Medium
• 1 Part Liquitex Flow Aid
• 2-3 Parts Distilled Water (with as few "taste" additives as possible to find).

I add this to my paints before using them and after.

Some thing else you can add since you are planning on using an air brush is Liquitex Air Brush Medium. This I would likely add to the above mixture in the following ratios; 2 parts Gloss, 2 parts Matte, 1 part Flow Aid, 1 part Air Brush, and 2 -3 parts Distilled Water (as a Start, adjusting as necessary).

One last thing is to periodically "jostle" your paints (without opening them) when storing them for a long period of time. An electric massager is great for doing this quickly and easily.

Huh? Which option on Photobucket are you using, Direct, HTML, or IMG? I usually use the IMG and dont have any issues.

Failing that you might have to delete some stuff in your Wyrd Attachment folder to get below the max threshold so it will allow posting.

Little mistakes like this are one of the reasons I would like to see Wyrd gain more control over the content posted on Pullmyfinger.

Good luck locating the Streets and Buildings of Malifaux Terraclip sets, they have been out of production for a while now. Would love to see them come back with a bit better thought on packaging/marketing, but Nathan implied in the past that they wont be seeing a reprinting or new development for the foreseeable future.

With that said you could always just use the files from World Works Games (the partners for the Terraclips line) to build your own. It can be costly to get into though, particularly if you want to build stuff that will last and not be a pain in the ass to build.

Failing that there are a number of other options that provide pre-arranged (read as not really redesign-able) buildings and such. A lot of players speak highly of 4Ground but they have always seemed a bit high priced to me. Sarissa is another option though I would also look at Burnin Designs, especially if you live in the US (their prices are lower).

The last option is to build your own. There are a number of tutorials for that around and often it is the cheapest option.

Second the recommendation to host your photos on another site.

I would add to your list:

6. Switching to pre-assembled, pre-painted miniatures.

Lilith is a good start.

Generally I recommend against throwing models into combats with multiple opponents. These almost always go badly. I also recommend against throwing your beaters into these situations early in the turn, particularly in Gremlins where it is easier to out activate or late activate your key models. Durability only goes so far when you are in a sub-optimal situation.

Putting reactivate on her (or a Warpig) and waiting until the late turn to have her head in is a much more consistent path to devastation. She is safer when she doesn't have to worry about eating counter attacks until the next turn, when hopefully she has whittled down the opposing horde (add in an initiative win and she might just be able to even the odds).

Given you are looking at the Guild and Neverborn the 2-Player Starter is a great way to go. The included models are good but not having to pay their Mercenary Tax makes them even better.

 

Anoter dumb question xD

How we can get the new, for example Bear or Oxfordian upgrades? the box that contains the miniatures will be actualized?

You can get them in the new Generalist Upgrade 2 box. They were available early during the GenCon Sale, not sure when their general release date is though.

 

Ah, I see! This is one thing I would have never figured on my own because I don't particularly dig the Gremlins and I haven't spared them a second look. I've no idea what Som'er does but I'll check him out.

He is definitely worth a look as he is arguably one of the best at changing gears in game. He is also difficult to pin down as far as what he does due to the sheer variety of builds and options he has available to him.  I have been piloting him since near the start of the game (1st edition) and still learn new options for him. Plus win or lose he is great fun to run.

 

Starter box actually contains a code to download the full rules.  The two rulebooks you have linked there have the first couple of waves of model rules in them and a lot of fluff, but in terms of rules required to play, contain the same information you get with the starter box.

Not the exact same information, the recommended amount of terrain is higher in the 2 player starter (the free rules manual hasn't been updated to this amount yet).

While what you have there will definitely allow you to take your first steps into the game, they will not allow you to play at the recommended level of 50 SS or with full crews led by Masters. I dont recommend, however, running out and buying a bunch of other stuff unless you have a clear idea of what Master/ Crew you really want to play.

The 2 player starter is great at teaching the game in easily digestible bites with each sequence introducing a new topic that builds upon the previous ones. This will provide a good foundation upon which to base future purchase decisions upon. Don't fret however the models in the starter forces are fairly good for their cost and can be played out of their factions.

Given your parameters it is difficult to argue against Som'er Teeth Jones as the best match.

She is such a great looking model. Very characterful.

Mine is named Britney.