US: roulette vs zombie

[themurphyfella]

so the zombie takes a rip from the gunslinger.

immidiately the zombie takes an action.

but the slinger gets to roulette to try and kill the zombie.

we played that both went off together but it seems like there should be an order to it that we just missed

[ThePandaDirector]

I would argue that the Flip on Puppet Roulette is part of the action. The Convict Gunslinger would fully resolve its action before the Punk Zombie could perform its Attack. It's best to resolve everything in the description of an Action before performing another. Of course if an action said "after causing a Rip on an Enemy Puppet, this model may Place itself in an unoccupied space within range 2" the Punk Zombie would get its Attack before the placement (same as Executioner).

[Hugor]

I am really not sure. Was going to agree with Panda, since he is always right about these things, but in reading the rules this is what I think.

Puppet Roulette

Puppet Roulette: After this Puppet hits with an Attack, you may choose to flip a card from your Deck. If the card is Even, Tear Apart the Target of the Attack; if the card is Odd, Tear Apart this Puppet.

He Started It

After this Puppet suffers a Rip during another Puppet's Animation, this Puppet may immediately perform an Attack.

These are both Abilities, and according to the rules (not sure of page since I am using the online version)

Abilities provide an Effect. Effects from Abilities do not need to be activated like Actions and do not end during the Resolve the Turn step. An Ability is always active, even when a Puppet is not Animated, and does not end until the Puppet is removed from play.

While not specifically about abilities, the rules also say

Sometimes, paying the Additional Cost of an Action will Tear Apart the Puppet performing the Action. If this happens, or if the Puppet was removed from play for any reason by paying the Additional Cost, the Action succeeds as long as all requirements to make the Action were met. If the Action has a Range, measure the Range from the Space the Puppet occupied before being Torn Apart.

In my mind, The Convict Gunslinger flips a card. If it is even, the Punk Zombie is torn apart but is still allowed to make its final attack (thus flipping 2 cards and having a chance to cheat). If the card is odd, the Punk Zombie still attacks, (flipping 2 cards) but that attack simply does nothing.

To be honest, there should probably be an official clarification, but I feel (after thinking about it) that it does all happen at once.

[ThePandaDirector]

I was going to say it could work either way, and is more a matter of what is intended, but in this case it isn't (or rather what is intended is "clear" ).

A Puppet attacking Executioner then Moving is two distinct "actions", Executioner clearly performs its Attack (due to Not So Fast) before the Puppet Moves.

If one of a number of Effects Moves or Places a Puppet, then Executioner would still perform its Attack before the rest of the Action is resolved.

However, with the Convict Gunslinger the extra Flip is actually the Attack itself (it's just determining whether the Attack actually hits the Enemy or it). The Attack has not dealt any Rips until Puppet Roulette is resolved, and therefore has not activated He Started It.

So while I will say that the Effects of a single Action can be interupted once they trigger another Effect, including the chance of Effects occuring at the same time, in this case I would say no.

Edited May 10, 2013 by ThePandaDirector

[Hugor]

But I think (and this is me not having played Unstiched at all and simply reading from the website) that this Ability only goes off (since it is not an action) when the Convict Gunsliger makes the Standard Attack Action. So he takes his 1 Action (Attack) flips his 3 cards, gives the Punk Zombie a chance to dodge, and then causes 1 rip. The rip triggers the effects on both cards, and both go off simultaneously, I feel. So, cards are flipped from both decks. Convict Gunslinger flips 1 to see which will be torn apart, and Punk Zombie flips 2 to make his attack because he is hot headed...then dodging and cheating will commence, but presumably will have a lot to do with the Gunslingers flip. In my mind having never seen the actual card.

[ThePandaDirector]

This is likely where I get nitpickity, but Puppet Roulette states "After this Puppet hits" while Punk Zombie states "After this Puppet suffers a Rip". I understand that a hit deals one Rip, but I would argue that abilities can interupt the dealing of a Rip. If Puppet Roulette stated "After this Puppet inflicts a Rip" it would occur at the same time. Because otherwise if Convict Gunslinger is Torn Apart then Punk Zombie would still suffer a Rip, which it shouldn't because the optional effect of Puppet Roulette (as I see it) replaces the Effect of a successful Attack (by interupting it before Rips are dealt). If they occur at the same time then Convict Gunslinger can Tear Apart both itself and Punk Zombie, which while funny seems at odds with what is intended (an all or nothing gamble).

Of course you could argue that a Rip is dealt and then the Effect is "replaced" with the Effect of Puppet Roulette, but that seems clumbersome (marking Rips then wiping them off again).

[Hugor]

Hmmm, I can see that now that you mention it... Making a Hit is not Causing a Rip

[ThePandaDirector]

Obviously this still requires an official clarification, and perhaps put in the FAQ too.

Funny, I never thought about this till now, but thankfully it seems confusions in PWU can be resolved instead of needing an errata =]

[themurphyfella]

I'd reread the cards and rules at lunch and come to the panda decision. Roulette his and tears apart the zombie. No rips are generated to trigger the zombie counter attack

[ThePandaDirector]

Everyone comes round to the panda way of thinking sooner or later

Now I just need to edit and delete my posts so it looks like I came to my conclusion in one post =P

[themurphyfella]

Lol

Don't fight the panda.

So the run on question was can you cheat in an additional card on the roulette flip. We said no on the night.

Reading since I've had the following logic

Roulette is an ability

Abilities are effects

The rules for cheating from your hand are for actions not for effects

[ThePandaDirector]

I agree.

You can cheat to meet the cost of an action, which includes attacks. You could cheat to ensure you trigger an ability, but you can't cheat the effect of that ability (the closest to doing so would be if it said "Play a card from your hand").

I think I need to look through my cards and see if there's any other questions that might pop up.