Lilith vs Rasputina?

[the junkie]

Hi guys,

I have my second grow league match against Rasputina. The game is preset at 25ss starter boxes. The week we are allowed avatars, any growths, and/or summons. No totems or starting with minions from outside the box. Oh and the strategy is preset Deliver a Message.

I of impromptu joined this League as Lilith and have only played her in two games. The first being a demo and the second was week one of my league. I don't have a battle report for game one, but here is a summary. Lilith vs Ramos: 7 to 0 victory. It was shared claim jump, and I took Hold Out + Kidnap. I really enjoy the transposition assassination trick. I traded a terror tot for his Steamborg Executioner, and that seemed like a fair trade.

Any who... Sorry for the tangent. As I said early this next week is vs Raspy.

So I will be unable to grow since he doesn't have any living models. I know can get some from Lilith, maybe I would be ok with two tots to youngs, but that concerns me in the endgame.

The Ice Gamins are going to stink as I have no ranged. I can avoid them as long as possible, but don't think I can do that for long. I was thinking about watching out for books on his melee def flip. In theory it is likely I will win the attack at his DEF poor. Meaning he will have to cheat first, and if he cheats with a book, I will just let that attack fail. Do you guys have any suggestions?

The Ice Golem is another tough cookie. Sure he is slow, but deadly. I don't think I can really pull off the transposition assassination trick since that would cause massive damage to my crew. I really don't know what to do with this guy since I have no ranged, and it will take my entire crew to take him down. Do you guys have any suggestions?

Rasputina... Well as a accomplished spell slinger I am going to have to weather the storm to get the job done. I have never played against her, and only a few games into Malifaux. Do you guys have any suggestions?

So then. The Shared scenario is deliver the message and that makes me happy. I can use my speed to deny him that... at least I think I can. My thoughts to maneuver my crew to get Raspy within 12" of Lilith for transposition. Allow Lilith to beat on her then active my Mature to 2 action deliver followed by 1 action kill her. Boy that sounds totally easy on paper, but come game time ACK!

I am thinking I should use my mobility so Reclaiming Malifaux could be good. Stake a claim would work well with that one since I will looking for terrain pieces and board sections away. Based on my plan Assassinate would be cool, but that feels like putting all my eggs in one basket, I either win big or lose big so kinda meh on that one. I am leaning to Hold out again since his crew is so slow. Hold out in combination with Reclaiming Malifaux means he will have to decide where to go, and I can run circles around him.

Thank you for reading my post. It's rambled on since I'm new, but you learned how I think. I will do my best to put up a battle review after this one for you guys to read.

Any advice from the community?

[maxvonlaibach]

Since I'm a comparatively new Lilith player, and my Raspy box is still on her way from UK, the following should be taken with a pinch of salt:

- Use your terror tots. I've come to love these little guys for their speed and significance. If you're going to take reclaim and hold out as your schemes, they will probably end up doing most of the work.

- Delivering a message with Lilith is $$$$$$$$- easy. Much easier with a totem around, but even without it. Just remember that you ca see through anything, including her ice pillars, and sprint a tot to within 1" of Raspy for transposition. Why not 2"? Well, the tot is probably gonna die soon, and spraying some blood all over your enemy master should be a good idea.

- Beware of freeze over, it'll kill you dead.

- Don't put too much faith in the mature, I believe that a good Rasputina player should be capable of dropping him before he does any damage due to the greater range with ice mirror, even with the -3 Ca.

- Keep in mind that everything in his force can shoot you, and beware of putting your Lilith within 8" of ice gamins.

Overall, I think that the balance is inherently tilted in your favour, due to generally high Df of the nephilim (making it much more difficult for the enemy to ice mirror you), Lilith being perfect for the strategy, while Rasputina is probably the worst, and your ability to see/charge through pretty much anything. Remember freeze over and you'll be fine.

[EnternalVoid]

With two, and now possible three, Rasputina players in our group I can give some insight I have gathered. I have not played Lilith yet but planning to soon, so I have had more experience with other masters against her.

First off understand how her abilities work. I doubt she will will take her Avatar as the mission is not to kill Rasputina, instead likely they will go with having full Soul Stones. Raspy loves her Soul Stones. Meaning she will have them to up her casting total, to make up for having to use Ice Mirror or to make it irresistable, or to keep her alive with wound reduction.

Now the stuff to remember. The first is the spell December's Curse. Really this is the spell that many think of when they think of her. It does good damage, can generate blasts, and she can cast it while being out of sight thanks to Ice Mirror. She will not be afraid to shoot her own models in the back with this if it means she can get severe damage for the two blast templates over a couple of your models. The 4 wounds they deal will drop Tots and even put heavy hurting on the Mature or Lilith. Worse if she gets this off and triggers her Overpower to cast it again, mind you it is only worth it if the original target is still alive as Overpower must target the same defender. One of the most important things to know about this spell is that it has a gun icon, meaning she can't cast it if she is in combat and she can't cast it through her minions with Ice Mirror if they are engaged.

The second spell to really be on the watch for is Ice Pillars, as she will use them to try and block off certain routes for you. They are not hard to break, but they will eat up actions and produce difficult terrain.

The last real important thing to look out for is one of her 0 actions, Freeze Over, as it can lock the models touching a piece of Terrain in spot. But it says they can't move or be pushed, it says nothing about being swapped so she can still get someone off with her spell.

I don't know how experienced your opponent is, nor how familar he is with Lilith's box and Raspy's box. So here are a few things;

-If Raspy tries to hide behind terrain and sling her spells out through her minions, she might not have anyone back there to protect her. Of course she will be looking for the Transposition spell, it is the obvious means to reach her. What might be forgotten is that the Mature Nephilim can use Walk twice for 12" of movement and 2" reach. Meaning you can have a Tot run into a spot where the Mature can reach it from, Transposition them, and then have the Mature go. If you had Lilith with in 6" of the Mature at the start you can Brood Mother with it so it can activate next. You will not be able to Deliver the message that turn but you can still take a swing at her to put some pressure on if you want and maybe pull a soulstone out. But be careful, if Raspy dies you can't delivery your message. If you managed to do this after Raspy has activated then you just have to get to next turn to delivery your message. I would try to keep a high card in your hand here, so if she tries to walk out of combat you can likely peg her and keep her there. This works best if Raspy put herself somewhere her Golem can't get back to the Mature easily *ie can't charge the mature and has to use at least 2 AP or more of movement to reach him*. With out Melee Expert you can rob him of its activation by merely being outside of a charge arc and more then 5" away.

-Schemes, this is a actually not bad. I like Bodyguard, as if push comes to shove I can run away for 2 VP. I would shy away from Assassination as she has those 8ss likely, be expecting it, and will not make it easy for you to get the beatdown you wish for. Bodyguard in turn might makes my opponent more aggressive and less defense if they want to deny those points. So often the closer the game the more pressure it puts on them. With her Fast, walk 6", and Master of Malifaux she can cover ground. Her Defense of 8 and 10 wounds also goes a long way. The sad thing is that with her starting box it is only 19ss, and with her cash it means 2 wasted stones. Still 8ss can go a long way, a few for defense can help alot. I would say Hold out for the other one as with just her box that is hard for Raspy.

-As for the Ice Gamin, remember VP are everything. Killing them is not important if they are not fulfilling schemes or stategies. Same with the Ice Golem. With Statue, Shatter, only needing a tome to sub zero trigger you, and possibly more armor from Raspy it is often not worth it to try and kill them unless you have to. With only a 4" walk on the gamin and 3" on the golem, it will be hard for them to out pace you, more so as they will try to keep Raspy with in Ice Mirror range of a few, and with her 3" movement she is not covering alot of ground either. If you do have to kill the Gamin there are two ways to approach it. You can send in the Tots, knowning they are going to take a beating and possible die, or you can try to pick them off carefully with Lilith. With Soulstones you can reduce the damage from shatter to limit taking to much damage from them, and if you use a Tot or two to soften them up you might have them low enough for her to take them out with a single hit if you are lucky. The Ice Golem is to be avoided unless you have to, and if so try to make sure Raspy did not give the guy another +2 armor. If you really do have to stop him then you are going to likely need to throw alot of AP at him to take him down due to the armor and wounds.

-Don't forget your illusionary forest spell. It says nothing about having to be 1" away from a model or terrain like some other spells, meaning you can use it to block off a route with some difficult terrain and lack of sight. It also means you can put it on something like the Ice Golem or Raspy to hamper their movement hard, just make sure that Lilith then uses her movement to get out of Ice Mirror range.

Honestly I would not try to stand toe to toe with him and fist fight him. All he needs to be is lucky to have even some tomes in hand to protect his golem and gamin, be willing to throw the blessing spell on Raspy if he feels threatened *+2 armor will make her harder to kill*, be willing to spend soulstones to make things hard for you to resist or protect Raspy, and if so I could honestly see him able to win that fight. It is better for you to make plans to set up getting to Raspy, delivering your message and completing your schemes.

Edited April 24, 2012 by EnternalVoid

[Cunning]

The 2 easiest to achieve schemes will probably be Bodyguard and Kidnap. Hold out at a push.

Kidnap is usually one of the easiest schemes to achieve. Pick the 3 weakest models in your opponents crew (the gamin) and you're away.

Hold Out is good against Rasputina as his models are so slow that they will have to spend most of their time heading to your deployment zone to prevent you getting it that they wont be able to leave much for anything else.

[Sliver Chocobo]

First of all Mature Nephilim give him fast so he can then walk and diving attack and hit tina with his melee expert, this will get the mature killed, but tina will most likely will too, she has Df 3 10 Wd mature has Cb 7 4 weak and black blood, so even if the mature doesn't her it's black blood might.

Lilitu, use her to pull the silents ones away from her, you don't want her bouncing spells off of them

Tuco, is very quick and has a shotgun. While Tina might be immune to blasts gamin are not, so shot tina try to get the gamin in blast range it's even better if the tina player is using the essence of power. Also remember veil appearance, an extra 3'' of movement and a to attack flips against him

Not sure what to do about the golem, I've never seen anyone play it

Don't worry about the ice pillars, they can't shoot through it and you can fly over it, so in fact it helps you more than it helps them

[WindlordRyu]

Get something close to Raspy (doesn't have to your model), then Brood Bother something and transposition it with whatever is close to her (use a soulstone if it's your opponents model so it won't be able to resist) and deliver the message. Keep Lilith out of melee so he can't deliver the message to you. Pick Bodyguard and you'll get 6VP easily while your opponent can't realistically get more than 4 from his schemes.

[Sarsnick]

Tuco, is very quick and has a shotgun. While Tina might be immune to blasts gamin are not, so shot tina try to get the gamin in blast range it's even better if the tina player is using the essence of power. Also remember veil appearance, an extra 3'' of movement and a to attack flips against him

Remember Veil Appearance is a PUSH, which is amazing for a 0 action. Whether in melee or not, it always works. Then he has Nimble for a Walk after he pushes away from melee.

He is a pretty amazing model

http://soulstonesociety.com/2012/04/model-review-tuco/

[maxvonlaibach]

... except Junkie is playing a battlebox game.

[the junkie]

So it sounds like what i was thinking. Use transposition and brood mother to get the strategy then play keep away with hold out and bodyguard. Making sure to use my portable forest for a constant los block. Well that sounds like a win, but not too terribly fun of a game.

I will let you know how it goes.

[Dustcrusher]

The game is preset at 25ss starter boxes. The week we are allowed avatars, any growths, and/or summons. No totems or starting with minions from outside the box.

I hate to be overly critical...wait, in this case, I don't.

Starter boxes only sounds great in theory but in practice it doesn't quite work. First off, as EnternalVoid said you're screwed out of 2 stones because of your box's composition, and your starter isn't the only one (poor McMourning). Thankfully you can at least field Young Nephilim if the growth op presents itself.

One silver lining- I have a new blog topic now. I'll post my thoughts on an adjusted starter-plus-blister growth league there. Alright, I'll step off my soapbox now...

--------------------

Now, I've only played against Lilith once, but I do play Rasputina so I can tell you what I'd probably do were I in that player's shoes.

'Tina's starter is slow. Odds are good I'd go one of two routes to get Deliver a Message:

1. try to bait you into sending Lilith onto my side of the table, then tying her up with the Golem or Gamin until I can deliver the message and follow it with a gift of icy blizzardy death.
   
2. If you keep Lilith away, I'd have to make a break for it. This is what you want, ideally, since 'Tina's playing to your strength (mobility) and her fastest minion is Wk 4 with no movement tricks.
   

I'd pick schemes that encourage you to come into my deployment zone like Hold Out. Movement is your strength and artillery is mine, so I'd be doing my best to set up good Ice Mirror LoS and then I'll kill one minion at a time. Ideally I'd shoot for getting you down to just Lilith so she has to come out and play.

Gamin are just tough enough to be irritating but they won't take that much more effort to down- just make sure to plan for Shatter damage. If you clump your models too much, I'm going to target my own Gamin with December's Curse and cheat the damage to Severe- 5:blast:blast + 2 for anything within 2" when it shatters will devastate a clump of enemies.

The Golem is accurate to his namesake- slow, hits hard, easy to hit back (Df 2), hard to do more than 1 wound to (Armor 2). Since he's slow anyway, and you might put a Mature right in my face, I'll likely keep him close by to protect 'Tina (her Bearskin Armor means his Shatter won't hurt her). December's Touch can make him Armor 4, so if you choose to (or have to) engage him, you'll be chipping away a wound at a time.

Once you get close, I will use Freeze Over to attach your tongue to a lamp post if you leave someone on a piece of terrain ;-) This ability is often forgotten and has won me the game (Perdita isn't so fast when she's stuck in place, is she?).

You won't have to deal with Ice Pillars- that's good. The bad is that's one more December's Curse thrown your way, or someone buffed with December's Touch.

The Avatar might show up in this game- with the restrictions in place and Lilith's crew being a face-beating bunch, (s)he might feel the need to have a panic button available. I haven't used it but I can say she goes from easy pickings to rather scary in melee. It might be an ugly surprise late game.

As has been said, focus on your strategies and schemes and keep your crew in cover until it's time to strike. I'd say keep Lilith back unless absolutely necessary.

Hope this helps.

[the junkie]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I completed my game tonight and went it went has planned.

I choose Bodyguard and Hold out (both unannounced) He took the Raspy one and Framed for muder (which he put on his delivery minion)

Turn 1 I moved up staying very close together. I wanted to give him some bait to deploy heavy center to counter mine.

Turn 2 he moved up a bit then I used brood mother on a transpositioned terror tot to deliver the message. I finished the turn by spreading my forces to prevent him from coming into my deployment zone.

Turn 3... Well that when the Mature Nelli diving attacked 'Tina. I think he messed up here in that he allowed the hit a 1 neg flip + charge ment I could cheat it... with the Red Joker I had in my hand. I flip my second damage and got another severe... 12 points of ouchy from one hit. So he tried a healing flip and saved 2, but 12-2 is still 10 and 'Tina was dead. This box set reminds me of the saying, "cut the head of the snake and the body dies."

He spent turn 3 vengence killing my Mature, but by then the game was wrapped up. I played VP denial the rest of the game. I won 6 to 0 and now am tied for the lead with another Neverborn player.

Next week it will be me vs Collodi in a open 25ss game with a model selection pool of 40ss. The strategy is Shared Contain Power. I may be playing another denial game, but want to spread out my schemes to hedge my bets should I lose.

I am thinking about taking a heavy grow list since no matter what I do I will be swarmed with dolls and out activated. Below is my list, keep in mind that I am only in my 3rd game with Lilith, and probably 6th in Malifaux. It don't have much room to grow since he wont help out my blood counter problems.

Lilith, Mother of Monsters -- 5 Pool

Primordial Magic [2ss]

Black Blood Shaman [6ss]

Desperate Mercenary [2ss]

Stitched Together [5ss]

Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]

Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]

Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]

He is also pretty new to Malifaux, but by far one of the best players I have seen. Picture that guy who plays chess 3 moves ahead. So any advice from the community? I have heard that the grow list is uber cheese, and don't really have to take it. I just need better ideas.

C&C welcome. Thanks!

[EnternalVoid]

Congrats on the victory. Sounds like he really made the mistake with Raspy there, had she activated first? Had she activated he should have put the armor spell on her so she would have had some protection. The Armor +2 and damage reduction flip might have saved her, though it sounds like he made the mistake of also letting you hit period *better off cheating it high and soul stoning to hopefully beat your charge attack*.

It is to bad you are facing Collodi after the battle box phase, the moment you give him access to the stuff behind the box he gets alot more options. Namely Stitched Togethers. That will not be to much of a grow list as Collodi does not bring any blood for you so only your own stuff will help you here. To be honest, the easiest way to beat Collodi often is to have some blast templates.

His Maronettes have 3 wounds, his Wicked Dolls 2, to anything that deals 3 damage on blast will wipe out chunks of them. Even with 2 wound it will weaken the maronettes and destroy the wicked dolls. Tuco who is coming out here any day now I believe would be pretty good at laying into them. Though Misaki can also fulfill this if you make sure to have a ram.

He is going to outnumber you, our Collodi player tends to take 11 models at 25ss. 4 Maronettes, 2 stitched togethers, 4 wicked dolls, and Collodi himself. Yours might do things a little different but I suspect he will have no less then 9 models if he is not taking any effigies. Black Blood will not hurt him due to being Neverborn themselves too. Also the Stitched Together on your side will not be as helpful as Collodi gives his dolls +2 WP if they are close enough to him and against other Stitched it will be Strait WP unless he is in range of Collodi.

Perhaps the best thing at this point thinking about it is; what models do you have available for Neverborn and Mercs?

[the junkie]

unfortunately I don't have too much since I planned to play guild in this league. We had 3 guild people + me and only one Neverborn so I grabbed Lilith. I have Lilith + crew, Young Neliphims, Black Blood Shaman, Nekima, Primordial Magic, Malifaux Cherab, Zoraida's box + totem (though I cannot use her), The Twins, Alps. Desperate Merc, and a conflict gunsliner.

I was really hoping to have Tuco for this match, but my store hasn't gotten him in yet. I will be heading to the store tomorrow to see what jumps out at me.

[EnternalVoid]

All right, I have given it some thought and such. Sorry for the slow response but been busy and got some games in myself. But here are my thoughts. Sorry if they are long.

First off a grow list might not be the best course. The Black Blood Shaman is a heavy investment at this point level and with Collodi's speed he might not give you much time. I would likely, considering what you have and will be up again, take a Mature, 3 Terror Tots, the Primordial Magic, and have 8 stones for Lilith. For Schemes, I would go with Kidnap first. Target three of his marionettes as he will sacrifice them to protect Collodi and if you do kill Collodi then they are all sacrificed anyway. As long as two die you get 1VP and if you get the three you get the 2VP. So if you can get the kill on Collodi you will get at least 4VP, 2 for Collodi and 2 for Kidnap. Plus another 2VP if Lilith deals the death blow. For the second scheme you have a couple options;

-Announced Bodyguard, as if he gets Lilith he has a good chance of winning already, this means a heavy swing if you can keep Lilith as you will deny him and gain two more VP. Also it will make taking Lilith out more important, though this is a double edged sword. With 8 stones you have them for both offense and defense with this list.

-Unannounced Grudge on one of his models, a wicked doll or a marionette. By not announcing it he will not know to protect that model from you and you can just deep strike it at some point or something and net the 1VP. If you pick the marionette I would not make it the same as the ones you have for Kidnap. More on how to attack this one marionette later.

-Unannounced Stake a Claim. This one again would only net you 1VP but again, he does not know exactly what you are after so you can just sprint a Terror Tot or another model into place at the end of the game and get that VP.

-Unannounced Break Through or Hold Out, again only 1VP but as can run into position the last turn. Between these two and Unannounced Stake a Claim you can pick which when you see the map and figure out which would be the easiest.

Shared Contained Power gives 2Vp for killing the leader and 2Vp if it was your leader. It is unlikely for Collodi to be the one that gets the killing blow against Lilith, so it is more likely he is going to be aiming for those 2Vp, his schemes to get him victory, and denying you yours. So max Vp of 6. My plan would be to take a bit of a gamble on the win here, as Collodi will really be the deciding factor.

Now comes the important part, how to kill Collodi. So first his defensive abilities. The first are the obvisous one, Use Soulstone. Like any master he can up his defense with the use of a soul stone and reduce damage. With 7 Henchmen points Collodi might have a decent number of stones, or if he is like our local player he might only have 2-3. It really depends on what he feels he has to take. Odds are he will have 4 marionette, 2-3 Stitched togethers, and then a number of wicked dolls. The more Stitched Together he takes the less wicked dolls he will have, thus reducing his number, but at the same time increasing possible damage output. His second defensive is the fact that Collodi can pass hits off onto his Marionettes as long as they are close enough. Effectively sacrificing them to save himself from a hit.

The best chance I see to kill Collodi will be to get him to draw all his marionette close and get Lilith in there to Whirling Death on them. Targeting the Marionettes first you can try to wipe them out. Even a weak hit from Lilith will kill them. With out his marionette Collodi will only have his stitched together as his real options for attack, as rebuilding the Marionettes is a slow process that prevents him from giving out Fast. Of course he likely aware of this, so thus a lure becomes necessary, and a transportation target.

I would start with trying to keep him from closing in too easy the first turn. This way between Lilith’s Master of Malifaux and your totem, you can try and prepare a decent hand for turn 2 or 3. If you get the black joker, keep it just so it does not show up at the worse time when you go for the kill. At which either two things will happen; he will use his speed of Collodi and marionette to get to Lilith, or he will get with in 14”, preferable 12”, of the Mature Nephilim. If he goes for Lilith use your cards/soulstones, to make sure each marionette misses its first attack so you can trigger Disappear. At which point they are Cb 2 vs. Df 8, making each of the rest of their attacks have an uphill struggle after that point. If this happens, hopefully Lilith has not activated so she can go Whirling Death on them, more on this in the next paragraph. Try to save Lilith towards the end of your activations to try and keep him from doing this and maybe getting another round of going after Lilith like this.

For how to deal with the Marionettes and Collodi in this case she can use her Whirling Death, targeting the marionettes first to insure they are gone before going after Collodi. Using Soulstones here when necessary while leaving a few for defense. With your last AP you can then take a swing at Collodi as hopefully all the marionette are dead. If all goes really well Collodi is dead but more than likely he will be alive but hopefully you have exhausted his marionettes and all or at least a chunk of his soulstones. This would work so much easier if Allure worked on the marionette and Collodi, as you would just cast it first and then Whirling Death to make destroying his marionettes easier.

The other option is to use the mature to try and lure Collodi into going after it with his marionette so you can set up a place where the primordial magic can use Transportation to get Lilith in there and then do her attack. If you took the unannounced grudge on one of the marionette the mature can even target that to net that 1Vp. It would be easier if he went and gave you this by coming after you, but it is an option to use the Mature as a lure.

The major concern though will be the stitched together. They can deal some heavy damage and ignore Lilith’s high defense for her softer Wp. They have a better chance of taking Lilith down than Collodi and his marionettes.

Here is the break down. If you kill Collodi with Lilith, you get 6Vp, 4 for Contained Power and 2 for Kidnap. Odds are if Lilith is still alive you have won, as he will get none from Contained Power and even if he gets his 2 schemes he is going to be short. If you just kill Collodi with one of your minions, you have 2 Vp from Contained Power and 2 for Kidnap. If Lilith is alive he might have 4Vp from schemes but you might still get the 1 unannounced Vp if you went for it. If he kills Lilith but Lilith killed Collodi first, you have 6-7Vp to 2-6Vp.

Note this is how I would consider approaching this, so take it for what you will.

[IDislexiaHave]

My suggestion at 25 points with Lilith with 8 ss is that Lilith is almost unstoppable with defense of 8. I would try to get to engage rasputina as fast as possible because she is not really a threat to you in combat. Your mature has flight and diving charge so it shouldn't be too hard to get to her. And with Lilith move 6 charge of 9 reach 2 with fast and master of maliphaux it's hard to avoid Lilith as well. If you have to kill the gamin I'd do it with the mature, with armor 1 cb 6 paired and minimum damage of 4, if you pull off moderate you are killing a gamin and only taking one point of damage from shatter, which there should be no retaliation. Also avoid the mature getting hit by rasputinas spells at all though because it will drop in one turn, make use of diving charge and flight to avoid Los.