Crazy idea to help learn and teach the game

[SpiralngCadavr]

Malifaux is definitely not a good introduction to the tabletop world, in my opinion (I love the game, but it's worded really densely (esp. if you get the regular rules instead, and everything's got wonderful but distracting fluff around it).

I'd suggest starting small, and making mistakes. Get a good sense of what you can do, then, a few games in, look at the rules again-- for me, that was enough to go from really confused to feeling a good grasp of the game (after I understood what the basic flow of the game was like).

[Requirement]

The bottom line is that some people need to learn more gradually than others, and what harm is there in having Quick Start/New Player rules as an optional resource for those who want it?

I don't think there is any harm in it. I think it could be helpful. I'm not trying to knock on you or the idea of finding ways to help out new players and I wasn't trying to sound like a dick. Three of my last five games have been demo/starter games so I'm stuck with everyone else trying to explain the game and help people get their minds around it. I am not trying to say it isn't hard to figure out Malifaux, especially without table top experience. I just don't think that there is an easy way to simplify things without drastically changing the game. I think a walk-through handbook? That makes the most sense to me. I liked the way book 1 walked through things. Admittedly, though, it was a fair bit confusing and the fluff didn't really help me not get distracted.

I played two games of Anima tactics tonight. My first real tabletop miniatures games. At last! After a few turns, I was able to concentrate on what I was doing instead of trying to make sense of the game. I got to play. That was fun.

For some reason, everything about Anima Tactics was clear. What each powers can do, when to use them, what each character should do and how. When I played Malifaux, we were just doing things with no good reason, none of us too sure of their action.

Maybe, for you, getting some experience with Anima Tactics will be the segue into Malifaux. Way back in the day my friend, who is the one who did introduce me to Malifaux, tried to convince me to pick up 40k. I for some reason just couldn't figure it out. I got really frustrated and never even actually played a game. Malifaux is the first game I have ever actually played. It is also the first game I have ever understood, rules-wise. And, yes, it took me about 6 months to figure it out to a point that I was actually OK.

I just wish that Malifaux would become less confusing. It seems like a great game, but I just can't seem to wrap my head around it right now. Maybe with some more tabletop experience?

Fair, I wish it wasn't so confusing to start out as well. I also wish I lived close enough to Montreal (my birthplace even!) to just roll over and help you out or run a few games. If you haven't yet you could get in contact with Zachio or gnam who are Henchmen in the Montreal area. They know the game, have models, and can probably help out. At the very least it would be nice to have someone in the room who already knows the rules.

I'd suggest starting small, and making mistakes. Get a good sense of what you can do, then, a few games in, look at the rules again-- for me, that was enough to go from really confused to feeling a good grasp of the game (after I understood what the basic flow of the game was like).

This really is valuable advice. And like I said in my last post, you are going to fail and mess up but that's all part of the learning curve. Even the most experienced gamers forget all sorts of stuff, especially in a denser game like Malifaux. Just stick to it, don't stress too much, and make your games fun.

Again, sorry about last post if I seemed like an arse. I really wasn't trying to be.

[super_bruno]

Maybe, for you, getting some experience with Anima Tactics will be the segue into Malifaux. Way back in the day my friend, who is the one who did introduce me to Malifaux, tried to convince me to pick up 40k. I for some reason just couldn't figure it out. I got really frustrated and never even actually played a game. Malifaux is the first game I have ever actually played. It is also the first game I have ever understood, rules-wise. And, yes, it took me about 6 months to figure it out to a point that I was actually OK.

Yes, I think that Anima Tactics could lead us back to Malifaux in the not too distant future. The rules of Malifaux are not too difficult to understand. And that is not really the problem we have with it for the moment. Rather it's the huge number of unique powers and the possible interaction between each characters that is difficult to understand. My players just didn't know what to do each turn. It was a kind of analysis paralysis, not because every action seemed like a good idea, but rather because nobody was too sure what the consequences of an action would be.

Maybe the language has something to do with it too. We are all native french speakers and english is a second language (but we DO NOT say "Ze" instead of "the", like those annoying people from France! ) Since the wording in Malifaux is so important, maybe it also leads us to some confusion... I don't know.

[Dustcrusher]

I don't think there is any harm in it. I think it could be helpful. I'm not trying to knock on you or the idea of finding ways to help out new players and I wasn't trying to sound like a dick.

I wasn't sure, that's why I asked instead of pointing a finger. I figured maybe you didn't intend to sound like a jerk and I just read it that way, so my intent was to give you the benefit of the doubt. I hope it worked. Also, I said I disagreed with 1/3 of that post, so I agreed with the other 2/3

I think a walk-through handbook? That makes the most sense to me. I liked the way book 1 walked through things. Admittedly, though, it was a fair bit confusing and the fluff didn't really help me not get distracted.

That's what I was getting at- maybe someday I'll get the hang of this whole "written communication" thing *wink*

My eventual want for simplified cards would be that they'd work alongside a new player's guide and special intro scenarios. Each scenario would add a few new pieces to the puzzle until the players are playing the full game. Sounds like I need to track down Book 1 for reasons beyond reading the fluff.

Side note- the "other game" I mentioned where I was stomped so bad was 40k. I was trying to avoid picking on GW again- the main point was that jerky players took what might've been fun and made it horrible, and that can happen to any game. But I digress...

Bruno, I went through (and sometimes still go through) plenty of analysis paralysis when I play. Your group is not alone in that. As far as language goes, I suspect Malifaux rules being published in French, German, and Spanish is only a matter of time.

I think you may have sold me on Anima Tactics- probably going to check the rules out soon.

[Requirement]

Yes, I think that Anima Tactics could lead us back to Malifaux in the not too distant future. The rules of Malifaux are not too difficult to understand. And that is not really the problem we have with it for the moment. Rather it's the huge number of unique powers and the possible interaction between each characters that is difficult to understand. My players just didn't know what to do each turn. It was a kind of analysis paralysis, not because every action seemed like a good idea, but rather because nobody was too sure what the consequences of an action would be.

Analysis paralysis is an amazing term for it and I personally vote we, as a community, fully adopt it. It still happens to everyone. I play with a couple guys who have been playing table tops since they were 12 and they will fully go through Analysis Paralysis at least once a game. It does get better. In the meantime though, the consequences are never that bad. As I said up top, don't stress too much, at some point it starts clicking and you can work through some of the interactions in your head. Getting a little experience under your belt, even with another game, can be really helpful and I honestly do hope you come back 'round to Malifaux. It really is an amazing game and quite fun.

Maybe the language has something to do with it too. We are all native french speakers and english is a second language (but we DO NOT say "Ze" instead of "the", like those annoying people from France! ) Since the wording in Malifaux is so important, maybe it also leads us to some confusion... I don't know.

Hahaha damn French. Unfortunately my French is quite poor at this point, Americanization took care of that for me. However, I did have to help an English as a second language father understand the intricacies of the language, so I fully understand where you are coming from. hahaha. If you ever have wording issues I might be able to help you (or anyone else on here could as well.) Like I said, if you have a laptop keep it nearby when gaming. Everyone is always helpful and there is always someone online to answer and typically pretty quickly.

Also, I said I disagreed with 1/3 of that post, so I agreed with the other 2/3

What 1/3 of it did you disagree with? Might help me be a better teacher.

---------- Post added at 12:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------

Also: I love walls of text... on my cards, on my forums.

[Dustcrusher]

What 1/3 of it did you disagree with? Might help me be a better teacher.

Keep in mind I have an art degree, so my maths may not be that precise :-P

1) Personal preference on models for demos- I avoided Johan because he seems like a very average model- certainly not bad but IMHO he's only decent (though a nice soldier for Ramos/Colette). I think Ronin would be more useful short and long term, and I am not that fond of encouraging someone to get a model that might not see much play once they get better at the game (unless they know this going in and are OK with it).

I would rather just wait and buy the boxes, or decide not to and go with it. Buying some models from a box then buying the box (we're assuming no alt sculpts involved here) hurts the ol' wallet unless you like to give new players extra models sometimes (I hoard my minis :-P ).

I'd do these for 12 point demo games with your example crews:

Lady Justice: Judge, Death Marshal, cache 5 (if I even bother with the cache)

Viktorias: Convict Gunslinger, cache 7 or add a Ronin, cache 2

Perdita: Nino or Santiago, Francisco, cache 2

2) I agree that encouraging new players in the face of defeat is important, especially since in Malifaux it's really easy to miss something and suddenly have an "oh, damn it" moment. Not sure I like the notion of pulling out the nastiness too soon- wait until they have a couple of games under their belts where they really "get it" before ramping it up, unless you happen to know that particular player wants you to play hard as soon as he/she understands the game fully.

I doubt you meant "let's put the screws to the newbies" in retrospect- at least, not the ones that are still trying to figure out the difference between a pulse and a blast and when they can and can't cheat flips. I say leave the Kobra Kai stuff to instructors in martial arts movies *wink*

I tend to do the opposite- if it looks hopeless, it's a perfect opportunity to show the new player how they can use their models to mess me up bad. Similar lesson, different application. I also try to limit the amount of time between actually activating my models. I am more likely to make mistakes if I have to hustle, and it makes me a better player anyway.

3) Naturally, I feel that alternate cards would be a great teaching tool. I'm advocating leaving some of the more complex abilities out- I realize now that it sounded like I wanted to rewrite things completely, and while I think that could be interesting for "speed Malifaux" unlearning old stuff would make things hard for new players.

I have a blog post musing on how it might work- after feedback I'm thinking basic stats and attacks plus maybe one ability each. Since Lady Justice and Seamus are my go-to demo crews, I realize Seamus's minions are completely hosed with blank talent and spell sections and will look grossly underpowered. So give LJ one of her boosting abilities, Judge gets Bullets and Blades, Marshals get Finish the Job, Seamus gets Live for Pain (it's the simplest he has), Belles get Lure, Sybelle gets Shriek. Perhaps they'd each get one additional innate ability, like Judge's Never Me or Sybelle's Regeneration.

Then we add one or two spells plus one or two abilities per model, then maybe one near-complete version and last, the normal card.

Also: I love walls of text... on my cards, on my forums.

I certainly do, but I also realize we're in the minority. I've been scouting locations for a lodge for the Society of Profligate Textual Exposition, but the paperwork is a nightmare.

[Requirement]

Buying some models from a box then buying the box (we're assuming no alt sculpts involved here) hurts the ol' wallet unless you like to give new players extra models sometimes (I hoard my minis :-P ).

I think I played too much Pokemon... gotta have 'em all! I totally feel the "hurts the wallet" argument, I'm just as poor as everyone else. I think buying two boxes (or more aptly having a friend buy one... sneaky sneaky) or just a couple models from those boxes can be worth the investment if you use them to show people how to play with them. Just keeping "starter models" around for the demos, ya know.

I'd do these for 12 point demo games with your example crews:

Lady Justice: Judge, Death Marshal, cache 5 (if I even bother with the cache)

Viktorias: Convict Gunslinger, cache 7 or add a Ronin, cache 2

Perdita: Nino or Santiago, Francisco, cache 2

Solid demo crews! I love it. I would maybe think about just leveling the cache to 2 or 3 for all of them for the first game and maybe even just say "We'll do hiring crews next game, this is to show how it works." Again though, those crews are solid (maybe even without editing the cards? None of those models are too "wall of texty") and show a lot of different abilities without getting to weirdly complex.

2) I agree that encouraging new players in the face of defeat is important, especially since in Malifaux it's really easy to miss something and suddenly have an "oh, damn it" moment. Not sure I like the notion of pulling out the nastiness too soon- wait until they have a couple of games under their belts where they really "get it" before ramping it up, unless you happen to know that particular player wants you to play hard as soon as he/she understands the game fully.

I didn't mean for it to come off as "crush the weaklings!" More of a "show them what their crew can do and what your crew can do, on game three, as a constructive teaching tool." Obviously I don't think it would be cool to (pre-errata) Dreamer bomb them on their first game, as funny as that concept is in my head. (BOOM! So what did you think of the game?) We are more in agreement on this than I think it initially seemed.

Like I said on the first post though, I lost the first 50 games I played. It sucked. I have cool friends who were encouraging, helpful, and not too big of jerks. Being that guy to a newbie player goes a long way in keeping them with it. I think what happens after the game is just as, if not more, important than what goes on during the game (after the first few games...)

I doubt you meant "let's put the screws to the newbies" in retrospect- at least, not the ones that are still trying to figure out the difference between a pulse and a blast and when they can and can't cheat flips. I say leave the Kobra Kai stuff to instructors in martial arts movies *wink*

I couldn't help myself. There are only so many times a day I get to say "Sweep the leg!"

I tend to do the opposite- if it looks hopeless, it's a perfect opportunity to show the new player how they can use their models to mess me up bad. Similar lesson, different application. I also try to limit the amount of time between actually activating my models. I am more likely to make mistakes if I have to hustle, and it makes me a better player anyway.

I like the mistakes make us better. I like it because I make so many mistakes and I want to at least pretend I'm getting something out of it. *grin* But it is a seriously good lesson for new players and one of the first things my buddy kept telling me (as I was failing to glue Lucius' cane and hand on) was that I will get better by making mistakes and losing to good players.

I think the lesson is good both ways. I like showing what my models can do and showing people what their models can do. I think the more exposure to ways things interact the better.

3) Naturally, I feel that alternate cards would be a great teaching tool. I'm advocating leaving some of the more complex abilities out- I realize now that it sounded like I wanted to rewrite things completely, and while I think that could be interesting for "speed Malifaux" unlearning old stuff would make things hard for new players.

I'm honestly still not sold but I support your efforts. I also would like to see the fruits of your labors when you get it done.

I certainly do, but I also realize we're in the minority. I've been scouting locations for a lodge for the Society of Profligate Textual Exposition, but the paperwork is a nightmare.

And the submissions for quotes to go above the doorways are absurdly long. There's no way we are getting a mason to inscribe a 300 word quote on a piece of granite.

[Requirement]

Also, the reference section of http://tabletopgeeks.com/malifaux-downloads/ has some killer sheets to keep around the table for newbies. Common talents and abilities list is clutch, even for some veteran players.