What would you do with 15 SS....

[M_Ruckuss]

Looking for advice for a hoffman crew:

Hoffman-Will obviously be including said master

Totem- I prefer the look (and lower cost of!) the mechanical attendant but am starting to think that the toolkit (with free push mechanic and ability to heal constructs) may well be the better choice to start with as it can keep up with.....

......The peacekeeper- Am definetly taking one to start with and aim to usually include one.

Guardian- Expensive yet will keep both Hoffman and the Peacekeeper alive for that much longer, and can also keep pace.

So with 19/20ss spent on three minions thats not much to play with.... (Only question here I suppose is 'is a totem necessary?' I have also considered using the brutal effigy.)

At 6ss Johan caught my eye, as have the wardens, Ryle, (the ever expensive but brilliant) Joss, Samuel Hopkins, Sue, Von Schill and watchers. I had also wondered about guild hounds, but suspect that the conseus will largely be (take watchers instead).

Any recommendations would be appreciated, particularly re the watchers, which I love the (laser-beak like) models for but am underwhelmed by. Many thanks in advance....!

[micahwc]

I usually don't take a totem with hoffman but I can see the value. I almost always take the peacekeepe. Wardens look awesome, especially if you are including lucius. Watchers are great for objectives and for increasing the number of activations you get.

Ryle is hit or miss in my experience. He works even better with lucius in the crew. Unless its a large game i dont usually take both ryle and the peacekeeper.

[Turbodog]

I think it depends on three factors you aren't considering (unless you're playing a different game than the one in the rulebook). Strategies, Terrain, and Opponent Faction.

I've learned (painfully) that if you go into a match having pre-selected models, you likely aren't going in with the best possible force. Malifaux allows you to do this to some extent, making it vastly superior to other games.

For example:

If the game is based on spreading out to grab objectives (e.g. line in sand, destroy evidence,etc), I can't think of a better choice than several watchers. They have the speed to excel at this kind of mission and can even tag objectives with their slow to die if you don't need them to stay alive.

If the game is based on survival - get a second guardian and stay in the hoffball.

If the game is based on board denial - Ryle becomes a very good choice, as do several non-construct units with excellent range like Nino, Austringers...the guild, in general, excels at this.

If you're likely to be going up against spirits (Kirai), the exorcist will make those peacekeeper attacks magical ... that's fun!

So keep in mind the strategy, terrain, and opponent faction can make a difference.

[Cunning]

Soulstone miners are excellent with Hoffman, being able to keep your master out of harms way by having him buried is great.

[Stern]

Soulstone miners are excellent with Hoffman, being able to keep your master out of harms way by having him buried is great.

Hoffman with 2 SoulStone miners and a cache of 5 at 15ss is the best way you can run him, you will be surprised at just what he can do, how mobile and just how competative he becomes!

I would play that against any other list with plenty of confidence

[M_Ruckuss]

@ CunningStunt and Stern- I do like the SS miners, but prefer to run them with Ramos as they are cheaper! Great 15ss tactic though!

I usually don't take a totem with hoffman but I can see the value. I almost always take the peacekeeper. Wardens look awesome, especially if you are including lucius. Watchers are great for objectives and for increasing the number of activations you get.

Ryle is hit or miss in my experience. He works even better with lucius in the crew. Unless its a large game i dont usually take both ryle and the peacekeeper.

Similarly I intend to keep with the peacekeeper for most games (having spent hours pinning the damn thing!) and think wardens look pretty solid. I bought Ryle because of the fluff and the model, which I have actually grown to quite like.

I will try the watchers but just cant see it at the moment-can see them working for objectives though. Thanks for the advice....

I think it depends on three factors you aren't considering (unless you're playing a different game than the one in the rulebook). Strategies, Terrain, and Opponent Faction.

If the game is based on spreading out to grab objectives (e.g. line in sand, destroy evidence,etc), I can't think of a better choice than several watchers. They have the speed to excel at this kind of mission and can even tag objectives with their slow to die if you don't need them to stay alive.

If the game is based on survival - get a second guardian and stay in the hoffball.

If the game is based on board denial - Ryle becomes a very good choice, as do several non-construct units with excellent range like Nino, Austringers...the guild, in general, excels at this.

If you're likely to be going up against spirits (Kirai), the exorcist will make those peacekeeper attacks magical ... that's fun!

So keep in mind the strategy, terrain, and opponent faction can make a difference.

I do usually take these into account, its just where to start from as an "all comers" list, and then what models to add to expand the collection- I never have just one setup, its just the starting point, but point taken!

Thats a great use for watchers I hadnt considered- thanks for the pointer! Can Hoffman assimilate this ability (slow to die) btw?

I had considered the exorcist expressly for this purpose (it is one I had picked up on!), and he will be debuting soon. Will samuel Hopkins or sue work in the area denial zone tactic? They are two of my fav characters (although I would have to convert the hopkins model im afraid!)

May I also ask what the adv. of a second guardian is~? Is it just that its another construct that isnt a hunter and is hard to take down?

So how does this look as a resevoir of models for Hoffman to draw from:

Peacekeeper (9ss)

Samuel (8ss)

Sue (8ss)

Guardian (7ss) (Or x2 = 14ss)

Warden (5ss)

x2 Watchers (6ss)

Ryle (8ss)

Toolkit and Attendant (4/3ss)

Exorcist (6ss-v Kirai)

What do we think of Sue (8ss), Johan (6ss) Von Schill (10ss) Brutal Effigy (4ss) Joss (too many ss...???)?

Edited February 7, 2012 by McDoogle

[Turbodog]

The benefit of two guardians really lies in the protect spell. (Actually a major benefit of any guardian).

Consider this...

Peacekeeper, Hoffman, Totem (I like governor's proxy here), Guardian 1, Guardian 2.

Turn 1:

Hoffman assimilates protect and casts it on Peacekeeper.

Totem Extensions protect and casts it on Hoffman.

Guardian 1 casts protect on Totem.

Guardian 2 casts protect on Guardian 1.

Congrats! You have set up a nice chain for passing down wounds:

Peacekeeper --> Hoffman --> Totem --> Guardian 1 --> Guardian 2

making your crew really, I MEAN REALLY difficult for an opponent to focus fire on.

Now riddle me this, Dreamer (or any super villian will do)...how much straight damage (not effects as they bypass this) do you need to hit the peacekeeper with to kill it?

If you're wondering why a governor's proxy for this... Won't it be fun when I get to pick and choose exactly who killed the proxy by deciding NOT to pass off wounds on one of the hits? Or put another way...when I pass them from the Peacekeeper down the chain to the proxy and then...he doesn't pass them and dies. The only truly safe place to attack is the guardians who...um...aren't really what your opponent wants to attack.

I also like this with the toolkit in the same place. Now we have a relatively mobile Hoffball (since everyone is pushing to keep contact at end of turn.) In addition, at least three heals per turn are coming to the group via Guardian self heals and the totem's welding abilty. That's before Hoffman worries about healing, which, you know, he heals when the constructs in base with him heal OR if he assimilates it OR if he actually has scrap and casts it.

Yessir...two guardians make for a very hard to eliminate crew. (via damage/wounds. The ways around this are to instant kill, like headshot). They are also pretty expensive (the list above is 25 points alone and really doesn't do much other than survive and beat on things a little with a peacekeeper. Granted, in many games, that'll probably get you a few VPs.

More on the other models you mentioned later...

Edited February 8, 2012 by Turbodog

[M_Ruckuss]

Yessir...two guardians make for a very hard to eliminate crew. (via damage/wounds. The ways around this are to instant kill, like headshot). They are also pretty expensive (the list above is 25 points alone and really doesn't do much other than survive and beat on things a little with a peacekeeper. Granted, in many games, that'll probably get you a few VPs.

More on the other models you mentioned later...

I see what you mean-this makes for a pretty reilient crew!

Ive been toying with ideas and am liking the following two so far (depending on schemed etc obviously!)

Hoffman Cache 4

Peacekeeper (9ss)

Guardian (7ss)

Warden (5ss)

Samuel/Sue (Offensive/Defensive swap) (8ss)

x2 Watchers (6ss)

Hoffman

Peacekeeper (9ss)

Guardian (7ss)

x3 Watchers (9ss)

Exorcist (6ss)

Mobile Toolkit (4ss)

Edited February 7, 2012 by McDoogle

[micahwc]

I think there are probably better 6 stone choices for johan in faction. Plus, if he gets obeyed his relic hammer will hurt a lot. A warden will keep up with your second list and give a chance to paralyze enemies.

[Turbodog]

I know it's not out yet, but IMO people should really consider the Pale Rider option Hoffman will have. Afterall, he is a construct, right?

I know he's expensive, but if you're looking at a Samuel/Sue swapout then I'd put him in that mix too.

I think, as a mobile gun platform for Hoffman, he has no equal. It's the movement of a Peacekeeper but with fantastic range, and healing (if you score a kill). It also won't be nearly the card hog the Peacekeeper or Wardens will be. I'm just waiting for the model to come out rather than proxy it to try things. But I'm VERY excited about the possibilities.

---------- Post added at 11:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 AM ----------

I think there are probably better 6 stone choices for johan in faction. Plus, if he gets obeyed his relic hammer will hurt a lot. A warden will keep up with your second list and give a chance to paralyze enemies.

I agree here.

[M_Ruckuss]

Sure, as (primarily) a Zoraida player I get this one!

I did look at the pale rider too, but again, I will probably wait until the model comes out.

Thanks for all the help guys- much appreciated!

[Turbodog]

Said I'd chime back in about the other models and insomnia dictates that now is a good time.

So how does this look as a resevoir of models for Hoffman to draw from:

Peacekeeper (9ss)

Samuel (8ss)

Sue (8ss)

Guardian (7ss) (Or x2 = 14ss)

Warden (5ss)

x2 Watchers (6ss)

Ryle (8ss)

Toolkit and Attendant (4/3ss)

Exorcist (6ss-v Kirai)

What do we think of Sue (8ss), Johan (6ss) Von Schill (10ss) Brutal Effigy (4ss) Joss (too many ss...???)?

As stated: Peacekeeper, Guardian, Watchers are really no brainers to have available. Toolkit and attendant are both good to have around if for no other reason that they are Hoffman's specific totems. I've been playing more and more Hoffman without totems. Conversely, I'd never play Hoffman without Peacekeeper and Guardian. (note: possibly swap Peacekeeper for Pale Rider once he is out...)

Samuel: I like having available. He's a fantastic high min damage model to go after those hard to wound enemies. He certainly isn't for every situation, and 8 ss is alot to pay for a model that can't really benefit from Hoffman's special abilities. Scout movement and range (including hunter) helps him keep up with your otherwise fast crews.

Sue: I like more and more. One of Sue's major advantages is the (1) hurt ability card draw mechanic. Peacekeeper (and Wardens) will be card hogs. Sue can help mitigate this a little. Paired pistols are also nothing to shrug off. Again, not for every situation, and at 8 ss, he's kinda expensive. But very nice to have available.

Wardens: Very nice on paper. I'm planning to get 2 to have available. We'll see in game play how they actually work. I expect good things all around.

Ryle: Hit or miss for an 8 ss model. I'd put him in my rotation with Sue and Hopkins depending on scenario. He tends to work well for me when my opponent is coming to me, but works poorly when I need to go hunt my opponent or be otherwise really mobile. He also tends to be kinda card-hoggy as he and the peacekeeper (and machine puppet targets) are all looking for my high rams.

Exorcist: I like. The constructs can effectively protect him and he can magic-i-fy their weapons. He can also deal well with the non-living, which can pose problems for the otherwise just damage based Constructs of Order. Again, not for all situations - he's going to slow down your crew if you stay with him.

Johan: I don't like as much. No real synergy with Hoffman. I'd rather take the exorcist for magic weapons. The 3" melee range isn't as much of a benefit with your models' mobility. And there's the danger of him being obeyed as pointed out.

Von Schill: Always good, but expensive at 10 ss. If you need a space marine to run off on his own (away from the Hoffball) and get stuff done. I'd take this one man army.

Brutal Effigy: I like on paper - but less important for Hoffman than for other guild crews. If you're bringing non-constructs (ie Sue, Exorcist, etc) his value increases since he can heal them.

Joss (and other expensive Arcanist Constructs like the Steamborg or Arachnid Swarm or Mech Rider): I don't like as much. They are all expensive and I just find the Peacekeeper a better purchase for that number of SS. All can be good in different situations, but I don't think they are necessary...instead they are "interesting" for after you get good with Hoffman.

Other important ones you did not mention:

Nino Ortega: Always good due to his ability to headshot. As pointed out, you likely have card issues with hoffman so you need a way to make your opponent have the same problem! Nino is great at draining a hand or killing something outright once that hand has been drained.

Witchling Stalkers: Very cheap (4 ss), magic weapon, and DISPEL magic. One of Hoffman's problems is that with low Df, constructs can be debuffed pretty easily. I find myself fearing paralyze on my team. In one game, Copellius shut down the entire hoffball for 5 turns striaght. A single stalker can dispel that paralyze effect before you activate and then Copellius is minced Peacekeeper meat. This is just one example. I love having access to dispel magic effects. Plus, you get the magic weapon, ranged weapon, hunter, and scout. Sorta like how you were thinking of using Johan but cheaper and more utility. Certain matchups, certain terrain, I feel like I NEED at least one of these in any of my guild crews.

Hunter: In my estimation, NOT a great model for Hoffman. But a decent plan B for Hoffman. You locate this model like a counter melee threat behind most of your crew. You use it to attack after the opponent engages. Given the right situation, it can "spring forward" to use the chain to drag something closer so that the peacekeeper can deal with it...but that's more rare. It is decidedly poor at "hunting" other models despite the name. You need to keep it around the Hoffball where it can be protected. Oh yeah, and plan B. It can pick up Hoffman and run with him after your peacekeeper dies (which it will...as soon as your opponent realizes what a horrific threat Hoffman riding a peacekeeper is and devotes resources to the task).

That's all I can think of for now.

[M_Ruckuss]

Thank Turbodog- completely get your point with Johan. This is my only guild crew, so my experience only comes from models I have played against!

Samuel, a witchling, an exorcist, an extra watcher and (eventually) another guardian should see me right I think. Manythanks turbodog.