micahwc Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 I would assume that abilities which reference a model by name could not be assimilated by Lazarus. If the ability references steam punk arachnids, then he would not be able to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted January 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 I would assume that abilities which reference a model by name could not be assimilated by Lazarus. If the ability references steam punk arachnids, then he would not be able to. Ok, thanks. Will have to try to get my head round this next week. I like this one, but why not trade one LSPA for a SSminer? You'd have the later option to bring in another LSPA in Avatar form, and the SSminer can bring a lot to a crew like this. My hooded rider was on the receiving end of a last activation charge/melee master from one of these- ouch is all I can say... I have a model for one, so will give it a try. I would have 3 spiders (x1 summoned) an electrical creation, the toolkit, Ramos and a SS miner at the end of Turn 1. If I use the SS miner to gain x1 SS and then maybe heal it with Ramos I would be back up to Cache 6, and would also still have 1 or 2 scrap counters from the LSA i had destroyed...that could work nicely. If I could avatar up I would have a pretty good melee force, even more so when the spiders swarm together. Killing the toolkit before hand would also grant me another scrap token. I think Wardens will be my preferred minion to summon. There +ve flip to attack and damage flips (v already activated models) is pretty awesome, and they are actually pretty speedy too. The main draw back I can see is sacrificing a 3ss totem in a small ss game, and the possible lack of scrap counters. All in all should be a competative but fun list to use. Thank for the feedback. Will now also try one where I dont use the avatar... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted January 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 He runs fine at 25 and 35. He just struggles with certain strategies. Dmg output is not the concern. The concern is what is the strategy you are playing and playing against? That should have the biggest impact on how you build a Ramos crew. Blasts agaisnt gremlins is key. Take Kaeris and gunsmiths, both can blast multiple targets. Sorry Mr B, missed this post through my inept scan reading. Does she work nicely with him? I love the model and artwork for sure. Looking at her entry flaming armour, resource mangament and cleansing fire are nice for the durability them give. Gunfighter with Ignite is a nice ability, and I can see the potential for attacking a high wound model with ignite, then using immolate to smack the model (presumably you would also use a linked essence of power to be able to cheat high. Am I getting the right end of the stick with her? She would be a weight 8 or 10ss investment, and I am really not a fan of the fire gamin an iggy. Would that restrict my use of her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Kaeris with student of conflict attached can be devastating. Student of conflict can help Ramos get avatar requirements. Kaeris with fast can give out a lot of burning counters then cast pulse. Softening up opposing crew for Ramos. Also Kaeris offers speed which Ramos lacks. Also don't feel you have to POP avatar turn 2, he manifest turn three just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted January 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Kaeris with student of conflict attached can be devastating. Student of conflict can help Ramos get avatar requirements. Kaeris with fast can give out a lot of burning counters then cast pulse. Softening up opposing crew for Ramos. Also Kaeris offers speed which Ramos lacks. Also don't feel you have to POP avatar turn 2, he manifest turn three just fine. Thanks, may well get her at some point. This is the trouble with book 1 minions: Joss is so freakin cool yet there just doesnt seem to be a place for him due to avatars, Kaeris, Mechanical rider and the like. Will still have to use him tho methinks. Thankyou for the advice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 He works great with brass who can reactivate him, reactivate makes him incredible threat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonedog-7 Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Interesting thread, got Avatar Ramos on his way Had a couple of games with Ramos bringing both the Toolkit & Alyce, which was nice but probably a bit of overkill on the cards/suits Think i'll try something like this for 35ss as i definitely think that Alyce has to go to balance out wanting more stones and bringing the Avatar... of course it won't stop me trying her at some point Ramos + Avatar +6ss cache total Toolkit Large Arachnid SS Miner 3x Spiders Gunsmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Alyce has to go Ramos + Avatar +6ss cache total Toolkit Large Arachnid SS Miner 3x Spiders Gunsmith I agree with the Re Alyce: she and Joss just cost too much with the extra 5ss quick avatar option. Interesting that you have started with 3 spiders rather than 2. Gunsmith is a good option to add flexibility (and I love the female model-want to give her a try). I am still thinking the mech rider is one for me to take. Am still trying to get a Ramos game in but havent the time atm!!! Thanks for posting the list Stonedog, looks like another option to try! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 I suggest if taking three spiders to start them as a swarm or hire as a swarm. You can maximize your activations that way. For example, also they tend to be better off as a swarm on turn 2 than turn 1. Also they are much harder to kill as wee ones. This does prevent turn 2 charges, but I tend not to worry about that. Try starting them both ways see what you fancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonedog-7 Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 3x spiders over swarm was for activation control and to stop it being a kill protege target (only without Alyce)... but then there advantages to hiring it as a swarm too, i have chopped and changed to fit between hiring each Otherwise it's because i like starting with more than just 2 spiders... i like their mechanics, but they tend to be what gets picked off so i prefer to bring quite a few and summon even more Only reason I'd not included the Mech Rider is because i didn't have one... but earlier today I've just won one on eBay so I have something else to try instead of the Gunsmith (as i don't have a gunsmith yet) so i'll likely be trying this instead Ramos + Avatar + 5ss cache Toolkit Large Arachnid SS Miner 2x Spiders Mech Rider with the choice to swap out the miner if i want to run 4x starting spiders dependent on strategy (or 3 with an 8 stone cache) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted January 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Had my first 2 games with Ramos yesterday, one at 25 ss and 1 at 35ss. I took the avatar and the toolkit in both games (which I know some feel is a waste, and I might agree in the 25ss game). The first game was reconnoiter v Levi. I completely screwed up with my strategy and schemes, and became so intent on killing Levi that it cost me the game. Was good fun and learned several points. I took Ramos, toolkit, avatar, x1 LSA, a SS miner and 2 spiders. My opponent took Levi, Alyce, several necropunks, a watcher and a doggie. My opponent was very aggressive and dictated most of the play, although I did get a lucky red joker on Alyce with avatar Ramos. I then spent most of the game chasing Levi around the board. Silly mistake, great fun! Things I learned from this "training" game: 1)Blowing up LSA is great BUT activate them first so you don't get hammered by activation control. 2)I summoned a warden with Ramos to kill a waif. Now my opponent suggested I summon a LSA, and my goodness were they right. While wardens are cool, LSA's still come in with 5wounds AND MELEE EXPERT. I cant say for sure of course, but if I had summoned the LSA the game could well have swung another way. More on these later. 3) If I am going to take a mobile toolkit with avatar (I may well look into the arcane effigy-+ to tomes is great for meeting manifest requirements but it doesnt REALLY DO much else...) it needs to go where Ramos is going to walk so I can pick up scrap counter! 4)Remember your scheme/strategy 5)Electrical creations are great, but situational 6)I need to learn how to get the best out of steam punk arachnids. 7)I also need to learn how to get the best out of SS miner-using them to hurt themselves for 2ss isnt great when you will quickly gain insignificant-it didnt do much all game. Maybe should have just buried it? All in all a good game I ended up losing 6-2. Learned a good few things. We decided on a 35ss turf war for our second post pizza game. I again ran Ramos while my opponent this time opted for the freikorps. He took the boxed set, student of conflict and Johan,opting for the Kill protegee scheme and I cant actually remember the other.... with a cache of 4 I opted for Ramos, avatar, toolkit, x2 LSA, mechanical rider, 2 spiders and cache 8, taking bodyguard Ramos and sabotage (both declared). Everyone says how easy the later of these is- It isnt when you have declared, your quickest minion is the rider, and von schill walks over to lay the smackdown...! I ran the rider up the board, only to run it back turn 2 when von schill appeared. I again forgot to activate my LSA before Cuddling them, and ended up (in short) turn 3 with Avatar Ramos, an arachnid swarm, the rider and a single arachnid hiding behind a tree with the entire Freikorps descending on me (with Johan holding the sabotage objective.) I really thought I was in trouble. The next thing I know, my opponent has marched the specialist into my crew, taking a fair few wounds off the rider. I have gone to charge it with my swarm, and he informs me that wp6 models (so my entire crew!) were on a negative to hit it in melee....he very graciously allowed me to take back the move and charge it the solitary spider. Von schill won the activation for the next turn and leaps forward with fast, kills my rider, leaps back and leaves me with 3 models and a huge pile of scrap...I tied up his activations by splitting up the swarm and charging and latching onto his specialist, hoping to wound it 6 times (due to its armour). Things were looking desperate, but no I triggered my plan. I planned to do it with the upper hand and with more models, but this had to do instead. The tactic I about to describe I am going to term the(or Mcdoogles, but thats a little egotistical!) spiderbomb. (others have no doubt done this but ive not seen it put down onto paper, apologies if it has. This is situational, and is better against formation style crews. I used the 7 mask I had been saving especially to Leap Ramos (as late as I could into the turn, so my last activation) into the heart of his "turtled" crew. I had deliberately taken the "charges cost 1" (0) action the previous turn in case von schill leaped out of combat. I landed on top of him and promptly used 4 of my rather larger pile of scrap counters to summon x2 LSA (learning from last games experience with the wardens!) I then (aided by my mighty cache of 8!) melee expert(ed) von schill for a few wounds. The LSA activated and then proceeded to munch through a few freikorps member. I had to ss to gain the first activation, but I activated Ramos, used his (2) action to hit with every construct in my crew before melee experting von schill, and discarding another 2 scrap counters to hit him twice again. It worked wonders and I was able to destroy most of his crew. It was definetly risky, and must be one of the few times I actually remember winning a soulstoned initiative flip, but it was great fun (but not without is risks obviously! The game went on to end as a draw after the 7th turn. It was a great game, and I learned even more than the first game: 1)LSA are great when summoned by a:Ramos into combat! 2)I left myself FAR too vulnerable early in the game-but for a woods I was a goner 3)Spiderbomb-great fun! 4)Sabotage is not a dead certainty with Ramos, even with the rider. Kill protegee or assassinate would have been better perhaps (forcing caution with an aggressive master is always a plus!) 5)Spiders-i'm just not getting them 6)Need to use electrical fire-maybe taking the arcane effigy would help with this. It would also give me an extra card per turn, and, if within 6, would allow me to free up an extra AP with Ramos...Just need to pray for high tomes. (Thanks has to go to my opponent-it is always great, but especially with a new master, to play against someone who will push you but allow you time to think and experiment- a gentleman and a scholar!) Any feedback/chat on any of this would be great-am also struggling to decide what to run with Ramos. Avatar and either toolkit or effigy for sure. Beyond that I am tempted to look solely at LSA and maybe Johan for an allcomers list- any thoughts? Edited January 22, 2012 by McDoogle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted January 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Think i'm going to summarise the previous post! 1) Avatar and LSA are great 2) I need to work out how to use electrical fire (as in how does Ramos get near enough) 3)I need to work out how to use small spiders (latch on?) 4) I need to prevent my crew from becoming vulnerable pre-spider bomb 5) Mcdoogles spiderbomb: Activate Ramos as late in the turn as possible, with at least 6 scrap counters, preferrably having already taken a (0) boost action in a previous turn. Leap Ramos into the heart of a "turtled" or close formation crew. Use 4 scrap counters to summon x2 LSA (or wardens but imo melee expert better) Melee expert a model. LSA activate and munch through as many models as possible. Pray/ SS slip to win initiative, activate Ramos, used his (2) action to hit with every construct in your crew before melee expert-ing and then discarding another 2 scrap counters to hit him twice again. Is definetly risky, and reliant on winning a soulstoned initiative flip, but is was great fun! Proposed crew set up Avatar, toolkit OR Arcane effigy +4/5 SS to cache. 2 LSA 15ss left-rider and ss miner an option, as are Johan, Alice & spiders. Options: Johan and Alyce Johan and 3 spiders Rider, Johan and +1ss, Alyce and 2 spiders Rider, Johan and a spider. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 One thing I want to touch on first before other feedback, can't have arcane effigy and ss miner, or lasp hired in your crew together. They are two different special forces. You can still summon an lasp later in game. Though I do agree it is a fair option that will help you meet electrical fire manifest requirements. From a lot of games I find I need to channel electrical fire more often than not because of cover. I am usually only casting it once a turn successfully. Touching on the rules was easy with limited time I will touch on your strategy later, once I have more time. Great right up felt like I could visualize what was happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted January 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 One thing I want to touch on first before other feedback, can't have arcane effigy and ss miner, or lasp hired in your crew together. They are two different special forces. You can still summon an lasp later in game. Though I do agree it is a fair option that will help you meet electrical fire manifest requirements. From a lot of games I find I need to channel electrical fire more often than not because of cover. I am usually only casting it once a turn successfully. Touching on the rules was easy with limited time I will touch on your strategy later, once I have more time. Great right up felt like I could visualize what was happening. Thabks-will be much appreciated! Shame with the effigy, but yeah-thanks for pointing it out. Toolkit it is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebonstar Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 I've been playing avatar Ramos lately as well, he is great fun. Now I don't buy spa's, but I summon one for manifest and its turned out to be a great little boon, mainly for the latch on (I call it the facehugger lol), and if you run Kaeris you can blow it up to hand out flaming tokens. Also, I agree on the lspa's, but I don't buy those either, I have aRamos summon them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Small spiders in my opinion are one the best minions with Ramos, their versatility is awesome. Activation control with swarm no swarm. They are fairly tough with self repair in swarm, armor, and when separate def 6. They can blow up themselves for a pulse or Ramos and Kaeris can blow them up. Add Kaeris and these buggers are even better because of her blow up ability. Speed is decent with arachnid better with avatar. Ramos is going to summon them and this makes then even harder to wipe off. Swarm has a paralyze trigger, which isn't to hard to use since it likely be the only one looking for high crow. I get this off at least once a game, and that can be a game changer. Now to make significant they are poor choice because of cost but that is Ramos's problem with crew selection until union miners. Just a small list for small spiders. I agree lspa you don't need to be hired, or at least not 2. Electrical creation is amazing, it doesn't cost you anything in when in dies in slaughter. It can move through anything. It is going to cause a wd and it will prevent turtling around it. Miner is best used by causing two wounds to get melee master then bury, with scout and 8" move this guy is crazy scary. Since you can bury over and over again and still keep melee master makes this guy really dangerous. I like to keep him in back get some stones, heal him and use his melee master later when I avatar. Keep in mind I advocate avatar Ramos does fine manifesting later and doesn't need a toolkit, so I tend to manifest turn 3-4. Also if I want to avatar on turn 2 I take toolkit and Alice this means I get 2 activations and still manifest all on turn 2. Edited January 23, 2012 by Mr. Bigglesworth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted January 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Small spiders in my opinion are one the best minions with Ramos, their versatility is awesome. Activation control with swarm no swarm. They are fairly tough with self repair in swarm, armor, and when separate def 6. They can blow up themselves for a pulse or Ramos and Kaeris can blow them up. Add Kaeris and these buggers are even better because of her blow up ability. Speed is decent with arachnid better with avatar. Ramos is going to summon them and this makes then even harder to wipe off. Swarm has a paralyze trigger, which isn't to hard to use since it likely be the only one looking for high crow. I get this off at least once a game, and that can be a game changer. Now to make significant they are poor choice because of cost but that is Ramos's problem with crew selection until union miners. Just a small list for small spiders. I agree lspa you don't need to be hired, or at least not 2. Electrical creation is amazing, it doesn't cost you anything in when in dies in slaughter. It can move through anything. It is going to cause a wd and it will prevent turtling around it. Miner is best used by causing two wounds to get melee master then bury, with scout and 8" move this guy is crazy scary. Since you can bury over and over again and still keep melee master makes this guy really dangerous. I like to keep him in back get some stones, heal him and use his melee master later when I avatar. Keep in mind I advocate avatar Ramos does fine manifesting later and doesn't need a toolkit, so I tend to manifest turn 3-4. Also if I want to avatar on turn 2 I take toolkit and Alice this means I get 2 activations and still manifest all on turn 2. Is this because she (alyce) gives him reactivate, which would then normally cause 1 wound in resolve phase, but he loses that part of the ability after he manifests? The LSA are there purely for scrap counters atm. Re the soulstone miner, are you saying that you can gain melee master, move, get to where you need to be, pop up, melee master again then bury withou losing melee master? Thanks for the tips of the spiders. Im still struggling for actual crew selection though. You suggested not starting with the x2 LSA. What would you start with instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpobjects Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 When you use (0) action overdrive on the soulstone miner and then use his (1) tunnel action to bury, the miner does not suffer the 2 wounds at the end of his activation since he would be buried. It is ruled here http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=342678&postcount=5 Any time in the future of the game that you would choose NOT to bury the miner and leave him on the table he would then suffer the 2 wounds since he would be officialy ending an activation, ie not burried. He would also lose melee master and defensive stance if he reached the closing phase, ie not burried. So as long as you continue to tunnel every turn, the miner keeps the melee master, defensive stance and does not suffer the 2 wounds for overdrive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted January 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 When you use (0) action overdrive on the soulstone miner and then use his (1) tunnel action to bury, the miner does not suffer the 2 wounds at the end of his activation since he would be buried. It is ruled here http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=342678&postcount=5 Any time in the future of the game that you would choose NOT to bury the miner and leave him on the table he would then suffer the 2 wounds since he would be officialy ending an activation, ie not burried. He would also lose melee master and defensive stance if he reached the closing phase, ie not burried. So as long as you continue to tunnel every turn, the miner keeps the melee master, defensive stance and does not suffer the 2 wounds for overdrive. Clcl. And can he hit with melee master, bury, then continually do the same thing turn on turn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpobjects Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes until he is killed of course. You have to place him on the table of a new turn during the beginning activation phase. If you do not win initiative your oponent will attempt to end your shenanigans. That where defensive stance comes into play and hopefully some high cards in your hand if need be since you just drew a new hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted January 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes until he is killed of course. You have to place him on the table of a new turn during the beginning activation phase. If you do not win initiative your oponent will attempt to end your shenanigans. That where defensive stance comes into play and hopefully some high cards in your hand if need be since you just drew a new hand. Right so turn 1 I activate him, gain melee master without suffering 2 wounds and bury him. He then moves 8" in the resolve steps phase. I can then activate him again, gain defensive stance and bury again, moving another 8" in the resolve step phase then move him where I want, unbury and bring the hurt (preferrably with a crow to gain a ss) with x1 action, melee master him and then bury again (or go with Ramos first for yet another attack!) Is all of this correct-if so this could make the spiderbomb trick even better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted January 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 And another thing-do I discard any scrap tokens Ramos was carrying when he manifests, does he keep hold of them ,or are they removed from play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpobjects Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Well you had a few things out of order, I think because you’re excited On the turn you would want to use (0) overdrive, albeit turn 1 or whatever. 1. You spend 1 AP on defensive stance first per the rules on defensive stance. 2. You use (0) action overdrive gaining +2 melee master. 3. You then use your last AP to tunnel/bury yourself. This allows you to not take the 2 wounds for overdrive and you will not lose defensive stance/melee master since you are buried and not in play for the closing phase. Then in the start closing phase you move the tunneling marker 8 inches. On the next turn during the start activation phase you must decide if you want to unbury the miner. If you do unbury him he will be able to strike up to 3 times and then use his last general AP to tunnel/bury again. If you do not choose to unbury him then he will move another 8 inches during the start closing phase. Continue ad nausem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted January 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Well you had a few things out of order, I think because you’re excited On the turn you would want to use (0) overdrive, albeit turn 1 or whatever. 1. You spend 1 AP on defensive stance first per the rules on defensive stance. 2. You use (0) action overdrive gaining +2 melee master. 3. You then use your last AP to tunnel/bury yourself. This allows you to not take the 2 wounds for overdrive and you will not lose defensive stance/melee master since you are buried and not in play for the closing phase. Then in the start closing phase you move the tunneling marker 8 inches. On the next turn during the start activation phase you must decide if you want to unbury the miner. If you do unbury him he will be able to strike up to 3 times and then use his last general AP to tunnel/bury again. If you do not choose to unbury him then he will move another 8 inches during the start closing phase. Continue ad nausem Thankyou for the clarification-see how these things can be used to rather good effect- will be trying this in my next game! Sweet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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