Talents/Actions/Spells - Confused

[Mr_Smigs]

Ignore allows you to temporarily remove an ability from a card so you act as if it wasn't there. Eg Perdita can act as if Pandora didn't have Emotional Trauma on her card and shoot her without making a WP check.

Immune means you don't take the effects from the thing your immune to. EG. If I'm immune to Poison, I would just not take the counter.

If something can't be ignored, it would also cover immunities to it. More or less as ignore means you act as if the text wasn't there, can't be ignored means you have to use the text of the ability. So Irresistable would work against something with Breach Psychosis.

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• So Breach psychosis vs Irresistable. Irresistable test has to be taken.
  
• Irresistable only can't be ignored by talents. Blind Justice is a Spell so can ignore it.
  
• Expose Fear can be ignored by Blind Justice as it's not an immunity it's ignoring the entire ability.
  
• Immune to influence doesn't work if your attacked so you would have to take an Irresitable check.
  
• The Box Open removes Immunity to Wp duels so Breach Psychosis doesn't work in The Box Opens bubble.
  
• Immune to Influence stops Lure as your the defender.
  
• The Box Open will remove Immune to Influence, so you could be Lured.
  
• Breach Psychosis would stop you being Lured.
  
• Breach Psychosis would be removed by The Box Opens so you could be Lured.
  

wait:

• Irresistable only can't be ignored by talents. Blind Justice is a Spell so can ignore it.
  

Talents are Special Abilities, actions and whatnot a model has...

Actions are things that require AP

are Spells Not Actions and therefore Talents?

[Dolomyte]

No, spells are spells.

[Q'iq'el]

are Spells Not Actions and therefore Talents?

Spells are something you do with your cast Action. They have cost listed, but that cost is really the cost of the cast needed to perform them.

So yes... in very general terms you can think of your character card as listing Talents (Abilities and Actions [edit]: and Triggers, I guess) and Spells.

[Mr_Smigs]

No, spells are spells.

please. extrapolate. why are they not also considered Talents, they meet the requirements for a Talent.

[Q'iq'el]

Because of the definition in the Rules Manual?

See page 12 - point 8 defines what is a Talent and point 9 defines what is a Spell. Both are separate categories.

[Mr_Smigs]

Because of the definition in the Rules Manual?

See page 12 - point 8 defines what is a Talent and point 9 defines what is a Spell. Both are separate categories.

8 and 9 are just referring to the ID points on the Card Diagram...

given how the "Actions" section bleeds into the Movement, Combat, and Casting sections...... (the running definition of "actions" spanning all those rules)...

with the definition of Actions spread between a dozen different pages...

how are we to know that Talents does not refer to everything on the back of the card?

tho.. now that I look at page 12 again,

I wonder...

If Talents has a sub category of Weapons... and the Weapons sub category is defined by "Talents of the weapon"... isn't that a bit of a circular definition?

[Mr_Smigs]

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16557&page=4&highlight=immune+spell+fizzles

only one I found so far... that links to a forum I can't access...

[Q'iq'el]

8 and 9 are just referring to the ID points on the Card Diagram...

Yes, but if you look at the wording, Talents is precisely defined with all the groups belonging to it. Spells are not in there.

Spells do not contain such a precise definition, but it's clear from the Talents description, they are category apart.

[Mr_Smigs]

Talents include Actions

Actions include things that Require AP.

Spells require AP.

Therefore, Spells are an Action

Therefore, Spells are a Talent.

or did I miss something here?

[Asphyxxious]

Talents include Actions

Actions include things that Require AP.

Spells require AP.

Therefore, Spells are an Action

Therefore, Spells are a Talent.

or did I miss something here?

Page 12 of the rules manual says

"Models in Malifaux can posses one or more Talents. Talents are divided into into four categories: Abilities, Actions, Triggers and Weapons."

According to your series of statements I can see how technically spells would fall under the category of actions.. At the same time making them talents. May not have been their intent but I don't see why not tbh.

I am pretty sure this isn't the intent though. The only example that comes to my mind right now is the doppelganger. You can mimic one (1) spell or a talent as different options. If talents included spells period there would be no reason to state they could take (1) spells.

But like i said... your logic makes sense to me lol so idk. Interested to see how this one goes

[Q'iq'el]

Talents include Actions

Actions include things that Require AP.

Spells require AP.

Therefore, Spells are an Action

Therefore, Spells are a Talent.

or did I miss something here?

The Cast action is what you missed.

Spells do not require AP. Spells require Cast action (or Channel if possible) and that action costs the number of AP noted by the Spell's name.

[Asphyxxious]

The Cast action is what you missed.

Spells do not require AP. Spells require Cast action (or Channel if possible) and that action costs the number of AP noted by the Spell's name.

Ahh i see it. Page 50 is what you mean right? So the (#)Cast is the action but the actual spell is not the action?

[Q'iq'el]

Yup. Which is quite important distinction as we've learned from a couple of recent rulings.

In a way Spells are opposite to Melee in a non-intuitive way. On the surface it seems there are many different actions when it comes to spell casting, but in fact there are just 2 actions - cast and channel.

With Strikes it may seem there is only one way to attack in melee, but in fact strike may be performed by many many different actions, out of which Strike Action and Focus are just the generic actions anyone can take (with bash weapon if they have none on their card).

[Asphyxxious]

Hmm makes sense. Good to know ty

[Mr_Smigs]

huh...

good catch.

now it makes more sense. thanks.