AP Modifiers ... Optional or Mandatory?

[Mr_Smigs]

ok, going to group a couple threads together since they basically come down to the same question:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24932

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24933

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24935

Going to use "power" here to refer to talents/abilities/spells that affect AP

Where I'm currently boggled is in this general acceptance of "Specific AP granting powers are optional"

this creates a problem,

Flesh Construct's Dumb is listed before actions on the card, in the Abilities section and Dumb is not considered optional (from what I've been told outside the forums)

Logic : Dumb is an abilities, abilities are not optional unless they say so.

The Manaquin has (-1) Slow as an Action

SLOW is an AP granting power. (Negative AP, but it's listed in the same section as other AP granting powers)

but, actions are optional

so, why would anyone take this action?

then we could get into the argument that "Slow as an effect from a spell is not optional because it is an effect"

(Since we've established in my quest for clarity on what an effect is that some Talents/Actions are effects...

but,

if that is true,

then when Justice gives Melee Expert to a model, they MUST use it as well.

now, further,

page 12, indicates that Fast, and Action Modifiers are Abilities, just listed under the Actions section for ease of reference,

it also says these abilities are Always Active unless otherwise indicated.

then it goes to say that

Quote:

Actions: Any Specific Actions a model can perform in addition to the general Actions outlined on p.33....

CAN... not MUST. so, sure, beneficial actions are optional...

but then we're right back to Slow (one of these "Action"/"Abilities")

so we've established

There are Abilities that are Actions, they are listed in the Actions section of the card.

Abilities are Always on, but those that are Actions can be ignored.

Fast and Slow are two of these special Action/Abilities

What "Common Sense" to all the forum veterans (not necessarily new players joining) tells us is

"Every Ability/Action that is a BONUS AP is optional, but any PENALTY is mandatory."

but where is that covered in the rules/errata?

[Mike3838]

That's easy though, Dumb isn't an action modifying ability. It had no +/- in front of it. It's not in the same class of abilities as Fast/Slow/Melee Expert etc, so can't be compared. It is not optional in exactly the sane way as... Pandora's Open the Box is not optional.

Slow has nothing to do with Specific AP. It deducts one of your General AP. So it's not optional. It's a must.

Mike

[Hatchethead]

I think action mods with additional requirements are optional. Slow is a mod with no requirement, you're just Slow and lose an AP. The same can be said for majority of mods: Fast, Nimble, Instinctual, Melee/Ranged/Casting Expert, etc. Fast isn't optional. You always have that extra AP ... you don't have to spend it, of course.

On the other hand, McM's (+1) Passion for His Work (for example) has a requirement, discarding a body part counter, which would make it optional. Only if you decide to meet the requirement does the action mod take effect. The Exorcist's (+1) requires that he take a Wd, optional. The Warden may discard a card, optional. If there's a "cost" involved, it's optional.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Mr_Smigs]

I would like to point out that the original question is answered on page 33 under specific action points. the +1 is added to the models ap at the beginning of the activation. the +1 can only be spent on that action. you may however pass that action.

ok... this makes sense.

you DO get the AP. but since it's linked to just the single action, it's "Specific AP" and can be discarded without use.

so it's not 'the AP is optional' it's "using the AP granted on this action, the only action the AP can be used on, is optional" (It just so happens that some of these actions generate extra AP/Events)

so the sacrifice of a card, or body part or whatever... is part of the Action the Specific AP granted by the (+1) lists... not the cost to get that +1 AP in the first part...

does that make sense or am I just going crazy?

[FearLord]

You don't even have to pass specific AP - it is generated at the start of your activation and is list at the end if it isn't spent.

Fast and Slow are nothing to do with Specific AP, they are general AP which all has to be used in your activation (even if you only use it to "pass")...