Flaw in Clarity - please explain on Effects Ruling

[Mr_Smigs]

was re-reading this, and something hopped out at me...

I stopped reading that argument halfway page 3 but here is an answer to you:

Definition of effect: anything applied on a model during the game which changes their attributes from what is written on their card, except for Wd loss.

This includes stuff like: modifications to stats and additional Talents from Talents and Spells, debuffs applied on the model by another model's Talent or Spell (Censure, Undead Psychosis, Hex, etc.), states of models (Defensive Stance, Falling Back, etc.) and ongoing Auras (the effect must be removed from the model the Aura originates from). Maybe some other stuff too which I don't remember at the moment. The point is that effects are temporal and change the model from what is written on their card.

Stuff that are definitely not effects are as follows (but not limited to): Wd loss, model's position on the board, Counters and Tokens (the latter get a specific mention in the spell so all is well), anything written on the model's stat card originally, attributes of terrain (you can't remove Severe or Impassable from a terrain piece), instantaneous Actions like Pulses (though if they have lasting effects those effects can be removed).

Note that in some cases an effect on a model originates from a lasting effect on another model (for example an Aura) or a piece of terrain. These can be removed from the affected model but they will be immediately reapplied by the lasting effect.

-Ropetus

wait...

states of models (Defensive Stance, Falling Back, etc.)

so... the "state of a model" is movement restrictions / moral restrictions?

this makes the whole first sentence in the definition of Effect in the rules manual seem.... wrong...

was "state" used as a game term in that ruling?

[Mr_Smigs]

ok,

so "Wade in" is like a conditional Nimble... i can get that...

what about "Is that All you Got" which says the same thing, but changes the model's stats?

[Dolomyte]

its like a conditional stat booster.

[Mr_Smigs]

so,

anything written on the card, that has a condition needed to cause change to the model's stats is not an effect because it's written on the card??

[CRC]

What if spellbreaker hits a Pale Rider after the Avatar of Entropy manifests? Does the "Rider" characteristic from "To Me!" get stripped?

[Dolomyte]

so,

anything written on the card, that has a condition needed to cause change to the model's stats is not an effect because it's written on the card??

I would tell you to use logic, but what would the point of that really be.

[Dolomyte]

What if spellbreaker hits a Pale Rider after the Avatar of Entropy manifests? Does the "Rider" characteristic from "To Me!" get stripped?

Your going to have to type up all the applicable rules word for word, I dont have book 3 to judge yet.

[Mr_Smigs]

I would tell you to use logic, but what would the point of that really be.

well,

logic...

to save typing space I shall use the term derp to mean "something on the initial card that has an activating condition that changes the stats of the model (talents, CB, etc)" basically, something Denied Effect Removing Potential.

Given a derp is not an effect

If a derp simply needs a condition to activate to be a derp then a Spell that changes a model's stats is a derp with the condition (the model uses X actions to activate this derp

Therefore Spells which change the models stats, is not an effect

nope... contradicts the OP ruling.

so... sadly, that logic, while sound, fails in the definition phase.

the problem here is,

Definition of effect: anything applied on a model during the game which changes their attributes from what is written on their card, except for Wd loss.

This includes stuff like: modifications to stats...

"Is that All you Got"

says

While this model has 4 or fewer Wd remaining, its Peacebringer Stikes gain +2 CB and + on damage flips.

gains.

as in "modification to stats"

making it not a derp but clearly an effect by the OP ruling.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Mr_Smigs

[Cunning]

I think it's basically if a model has to do something(make an action, choose to lose wound etc) to make it happen then it's an effect, if it's passive then it's not.

For instance. If a model has fast then it's always fast. Fast is not an effect. If a model has reckless then it loses a wound to gain fast. In this instance fast is an effect.

In the instance of Is That All you Got, I suppose you could argue that the +2cb and the +ve damage flip is an effect. However if you use something that removes effects it'll come straight back as Is That All you got will just reapply it.

[CRC]

I'm not up to typing it all in right now, long day. Here are some others I thought of to tide you over:

If Lost Love sacrifices itself "For Love" and gives Kirai Spirit, will Spellbreaker strip that away?

Hamelin uses Understand the Soulless to make a model Insignificant, can Spellbreaker strip make it significant again?

The Dreamer hires three Teddies, which gain Nightmare, can Spellbreaker strip that characteristic?

I hire the Viktorias, one of which is nominated for "Weapon Selection" and gains Paired Nihonto but loses the Pistol. Will Spellbreaker turn her back into a gun-vik?

[Mr_Smigs]

I'm not up to typing it all in right now, long day. Here are some others I thought of to tide you over:

If Lost Love sacrifices itself "For Love" and gives Kirai Spirit, will Spellbreaker strip that away?

Hamelin uses Understand the Soulless to make a model Insignificant, can Spellbreaker strip make it significant again?

The Dreamer hires three Teddies, which gain Nightmare, can Spellbreaker strip that characteristic?

all these are covered in the current definition of "Effect"

which is, yes. they are all changes to the initial card reading (new stats/abilities/talents/etc...) and thus are removable...

I hire the Viktorias, one of which is nominated for "Weapon Selection" and gains Paired Nihonto but loses the Pistol. Will Spellbreaker turn her back into a gun-vik?

not sure. by the current ruling, i think so...

I think it's basically if a model has to do something(make an action, choose to lose wound etc) to make it happen then it's an effect, if it's passive then it's not.

For instance. If a model has fast then it's always fast. Fast is not an effect. If a model has reckless then it loses a wound to gain fast. In this instance fast is an effect.

In the instance of Is That All you Got, I suppose you could argue that the +2cb and the +ve damage flip is an effect. However if you use something that removes effects it'll come straight back as Is That All you got will just reapply it.

this "i think" logic is what I keep seeing rulings based on (or at least the discussions other side) ... intention...

but, "Is that All you Got" the model does have to do something.... it has to be below a set number of wounds...

now, yes, logically, it reasserts itself shortly after.... but that becomes the next question, of "when"? but we'll come back to that after establishing "if" it ends in the first place.

[Guild]

I hire the Viktorias, one of which is nominated for "Weapon Selection" and gains Paired Nihonto but loses the Pistol. Will Spellbreaker turn her back into a gun-vik?

While yes, this is an effect. It cannot be removed. Removing the effect would invalidate the models requirement to accurately depict the gun and single sword. The effect of Spellbreaker CANNOT affect the effect of Weapon Selection and thus is ignored.

[Mr_Smigs]

While yes, this is an effect. It cannot be removed. Removing the effect would invalidate the models requirement to accurately depict the gun and single sword. The effect of Spellbreaker CANNOT affect the effect of Weapon Selection and thus is ignored.

take that to the Spellbreaker thread.

spellbreaker ends effects.

if spellbreaker cannot stop it, then it is not an effect.

that's how the current ruling seems to run it... which is where the whole OP started...