New McM player vs Lilith

[kanhead]

Hi guys, long time lurker just registered. I've just picked up the game as an alternative to my usual GW addiction.

I had a couple of games against my brother on the weekend to flesh the rules out and really struggled against Lilith with my McMourning crew. I've reviewed a few posts on here and was running a 25ss crew consisting of:

McMourning

Sebastien

Bette Noir

Chihuahua

4xcanine remains

I know i made a few mistakes. I got my activation messed up and often had McM activating early to build flesh constructs as barriers when he should go last. I wasn't nearly aggressive enough with Bette who i think should be popping out whenever something dies. I also bunched too much and got whirlwinded by Lilith way too many times...

Can anyone offer suggestion for handling her? She went down my throat with a mature nephilim and wiped out my crew in a couple of activations. Dogs and sebastien generally got smashed too easily and McM was left unsupported. With a bad control hand her high Def and a couple of soulstones made her invunerable (until a surprise Bette and flurry took her down).

I had a similiar experience against Rasputina with my crew getting smashed but i secured the objective with McM and he couldn't get through the flesh construct spawning.

Is there a preferred activation order? How close should Sebastien be to McM?

[hippieshopper]

I'm not into 25ss games that much, my favorite is 35 but I can offer some advice.

I always try to have both McM and Sebs in the $#!t, mixing it up and killing stuff. If you get a 13 or the red joker, try to save it and have Sebs whack the Mature Nephilim. I know that might sound silly but the biggest mistake people can do is under-estimate Sebastian. He is capable of doing a lot of damage in a short amount of time.

I've never used Bete Noire, and I never plan on it. All I know is to cast depraved tactics every time she activates. If it were me, I would take a Frankie right off the bat.

Since McM has the highest SS cache of any master, you can always spend one in the beginning to start with a BPC. Then in the beginning...hit one of the dogs, then dissect it, you should now have enough to make a frankie in the first turn.

If you can, hit Lillith with Wracked with Pain, this will keep her from Companion-ing during that turn. Also you get a free BPC out of it. Since McM starts off with a +1 advantage, it shouldn't be too hard.

The problem you will have is that your combat is automatically at a disadvantage to hers and all of your spells, save for Wracked with Pain, use the opponent's Defense as the resist stat.

To deter them from rushing McM, try pulling out some Frankies and keeping them with McM...preferably in front of him.

Also you might even want to try flanking him with Sebs, so that if he rushes your master, you can come up behind with Sebastian.

The only problem with this is that her spinning attack is a biatch.

But it is a [2] action. So if you stay out of range, you should be fine.

I'll post more if needed, I am not very good at giving advice but I have gone against Lillith a few times.

[Sandwich]

Lose Bete Noire.

She's useless to McM in smaller games.

I'd switch her out for a Rotten Belle or two, or a Belle and a Nurse.

You can use the Belles to move the Terror Tots and Young Nephilim around while you have McM do his thing.

Sebs should run with the dogs and constantly pump them out when applicable.

You could, if you desire, make a puppy dog into a Cruise Missile via her Injection thing, which is always fun.

The Dogs though, will work really well with a Belle and Sebastian.

The -2 Df they give, and the possibility of Rabies makes life rather dandy when you're looking for needless amounts of violence.

There's a tactica for McM I've read slightly, I believe it will be the best help any of us can offer.

[hippieshopper]

Nurses are not that useful, dog bombs and healing are probably the best thing they have.

Also, I think you should lose Bete and take a Frankie, or maybe more dogs, whatever the strategy requires.

And yeah, the tactica is a pretty good read.

[Peterdita]

Lose bette, gain punk zombies. Heck you can even lose Sebastian. I ran McM with dogs and punk zombies very effectively.

Turn 1.

dog moves up 6"

Chihuahua activates w/MCm and "get the stick" x2 BP.

McMizzle

(0)scalpel slings up at the dog, gets a BP, cheat to weak 2 damage.

(1) Discect the dog, by now even weak will kill it.

So now you 8 BP(2 from totem, 1 sling, 5 disect)

Now you can walk up more or do whatever you want.

I find heavy hitters like punk zombies with paired 7s and good damage usefull vs Lilith and her black blood. a flurry from a punk zombie can drop a mature in one activation

[CubertFarnsworth]

Lose bette, gain punk zombies. Heck you can even lose Sebastian. I ran McM with dogs and punk zombies very effectively.

Turn 1.

dog moves up 6"

Chihuahua activates w/MCm and "get the stick" x2 BP.

McMizzle

(0)scalpel slings up at the dog, gets a BP, cheat to weak 2 damage.

(1) Discect the dog, by now even weak will kill it.

So now you 8 BP(2 from totem, 1 sling, 5 disect)

Now you can walk up more or do whatever you want.

I find heavy hitters like punk zombies with paired 7s and good damage usefull vs Lilith and her black blood. a flurry from a punk zombie can drop a mature in one activation

Awsome run, but sad things is that the errata I think is going to kill all of this.

Mcmourning v2 card no longer gives Corpse counter when model is killed from Dissection and Chihuahua no longer produces BPs magically. That is 4 BPs taken away from your method. :club:

Why did they :rain: on our parade!!

[hippieshopper]

Because Hamelin is out and they need all of our awesome powers for him.

This is how I see that though, I don't see anything about no corpse counters or anything....not in the books, or the errata, or my cards, not even the one's at my LGS. My point is...until I see that on a card, I am gonna use my own

[CubertFarnsworth]

Because Hamelin is out and they need all of our awesome powers for him.

This is how I see that though, I don't see anything about no corpse counters or anything....not in the books, or the errata, or my cards, not even the one's at my LGS. My point is...until I see that on a card, I am gonna use my own

New errata coming out hippie...supposedly any day now :tired:.

But you already now this as I have seen your comment before about holding on to your own cards.

You are going to die with your boots on Hippe, I like your style!:guns:

[kanhead]

So the feeling is that McM can one turn her? I'm not so sure if she has SS left...but i didn't really get the chance. The dogs dropping her Def was my target but the minute she gets an activation she whirlwinds the lot of them - and generally they are activating early to delay McM. Blackblood is also a problem with their low wounds.

I've read a bit of the tactica, they post a link from a henchman that the Chihuahua does pull the stick out of thin air. BPC didn't seem a problem anyway, getting a high crow is!

I'll give it another shot and try defending Seb more and spitting out dogs with him rather than rushing in. I'll delay a turn to try and bring out more Fleshies as a meat shield. I'm really tempted to try a nurse/belle combo but i'm not sure i want to lose bette yet, she did the best out of my crew in the few games i had. I'm tempted to suicide a dog at Lilith/mature pop Bette and flurry them away.

I guess i'll have to experiment witht he punks/nurses/belles (and buy a few more models).

[Peterdita]

dog charge to Bette aint a bad plan. I'vebeen known to use it when I run Bette. Just ahve to keep that 10 in your hand.

Also about the high crow, if you have and 8-9 of crows and are in a pinch you can cheat with that and burn a SS.

[hippieshopper]

So the feeling is that McM can one turn her? I'm not so sure if she has SS left...but i didn't really get the chance. The dogs dropping her Def was my target but the minute she gets an activation she whirlwinds the lot of them - and generally they are activating early to delay McM. Blackblood is also a problem with their low wounds.

I've read a bit of the tactica, they post a link from a henchman that the Chihuahua does pull the stick out of thin air. BPC didn't seem a problem anyway, getting a high crow is!

I'll give it another shot and try defending Seb more and spitting out dogs with him rather than rushing in. I'll delay a turn to try and bring out more Fleshies as a meat shield. I'm really tempted to try a nurse/belle combo but i'm not sure i want to lose bette yet, she did the best out of my crew in the few games i had. I'm tempted to suicide a dog at Lilith/mature pop Bette and flurry them away.

I guess i'll have to experiment witht he punks/nurses/belles (and buy a few more models).

I see it as a war of Soulstone attrition. McM...by default has more than she does, if you use Sebs and scare her into using them, he might die...that's okay (take Framed for Murder=D), if you do that and come in for the kill with McM, it's over.

She may have better combat, but McM self heals better, all he needs to do is hit her.

If you have high masks, save them for his spells.

If you have enough, it's crazy awesome.

Scalpel Slingin'

Rancid Transplant (Scalpel Magic)

Attack

Dissection (Scalpel Magic)

Attack

Cheat the $&*# out of those spells, highest thing ya got and a SS.

Hit her with that and as our Henchman says... "Bitch, get off my table!"

And, thanks Farnsworth...I think.

[kanhead]

Ok, i'll give it a go. Sounds like i need to get a bit smarter with my activations and positioning and really take advantage of the high SS pool rather than change things up too much.

I think i'll try to probe a bit more with the dogs and try to get him to commit without support and before i've activated McM. Maybe even using the chihuahua to pop a soulstoned dissection as a surprise backup.

[VonWyll]

Greetings.

If your looking for advice against Lilith, what you want is 1-2 Rotten Belle. A successful cast of Undress will lower Lilith's defense by 2 and, if you can get two dogs onto her, that's another 2 defense gone. This leaves her with a paltry defense stat of 4, making her easy pickings for McMourning, Sebastian or just good old fashioned Canine Remains. It's worked for me many a time.

The Reason why you might want two, is because Slow can be cast twice on Lilith to reduce her Actions to 1 (The first casting cancels out fast and the second actually makes her slow). Slowing down Nephlim is actually really nifty, it means they can't use Diving Attack and remember, Distract allows you to hit multiple targets.

If nothing else, it may force her to burn a Soulstone, which is always a good thing.

Unfortunately, for a McMourning crew, there are just better options then Bete Noire. McMourning is possibly the one Ressurectionist crew that does not require additional punch as together, him and and his adorable sidekick bring it in buckets.

Crooked Men are also really good. If you know where Lilith is likely to go, drop some Shafted Counters. Her defense can't protect her from the damage they deal and she may end up paralyzed (or, if your really lucky, dead). This is also a handy way of detering a Mature Nephlim.

Edited October 27, 2010 by VonWyll