Lilith list....

[M_Ruckuss]

Thanks for the forest info.

Clcl, will give the transposition a go. Would work even better with a young nephilim or nekima as they can fly... (as in if crew is moving through terrain.

I think I will def do a card for Nekima and black blood (will use as close a format to official as possible.

Will keep learning the crew and will try a waldegeist in a few weeks (am looking at a 5 geist list in the future with lilith purely for giggles!)

In mean time will learn Nekima list then try the twins. Keeping it neverborn though! Will also look at making my board over xmas- will do modular terrain in the interim along with crew.

[M_Ruckuss]

In mean time will learn Nekima list then try the twins. Keeping it neverborn though!

Karn (and any others....):

30ss

Lilith (Cache 5)

Nekima (13ss)

Lilitu (7ss)

3 Terror Tots (9ss)

Would then inlclude either a black blood shamen or another tot and a cherub at 35ss.

Initially thought this relied too heavily on getting the right cards. BUT the wording on Nekimas Nuture Nephilim ability is "+4 CA when "Casting or Channelling Grow or Mature" This would mean I could activate Nekima, use Blood Offering and gain 2 Blood Counters. Next activate Lilitu, needing only an 8 of anything to sacrifice a Terror Tot and summon a Lelu. Still leaves me with 2 more tots to mature and/or transform (so you could grow, get to 1 wound then turn into a fresh Lelu- OUCH!) Within 2 turns Nekima should also get 6wounds back..

I like Lilitu and Lelu now, and didnt realise at first that they are lilith themed (indeed a mate was telling me how apparently lilitu means "daughter of lilith" Not sure but sounded cool!)

Havent named this tactic yet (indeed others have probs already seen/used it but thought id share my thoughts/ put it up for discussion none the less just in case)

Thoughts???

[Stargazer]

Mate I think u really need a Lelu on the board to start cos otherwise the Lilitu starts to take wounds if there isn't a friendly Lelu in play... and the way I read it you wouldn't get the +4 Ca cos that's only for grow or mature, although I could be wrong but that's how I read it

Edited October 30, 2010 by Stargazer

[M_Ruckuss]

Mate I think u really need a Lelu on the board to start cos otherwise the Lilitu starts to take wounds if there isn't a friendly Lelu in play... and the way I read it you wouldn't get the +4 Ca cos that's only for grow or mature, although I could be wrong but that's how I read it

You could be right about the wording. The intent may well be for just those 2 spells, but thats clearly NOT what the book says so it looks to me like its legal: i'll probs be using it next week to try it out (hence getting others opinions on it lol!)

As for the wounds, their suffered in the resolve steps phase AFTER she has activated- i.e. the plan being I already have a Lelu on the board BEFORE this becomes an issue. Essentially the plan relies on either having a 12 or 13 or a red joker in my hand (not guranteed and therefore not really playable unless you START with one of each or are prepared to take wounds, which I could.

As I said, the intention may have been as you have said bud, but I wouldn't say you could read it as meaning just those 2 spells as it clearly says Friendly Nephilim within 10” of this model receive +4 CA when Casting or Channelling Grow or Mature. Casting is a separate action/characteristic from the other two spells, so while the rule may be different from the intention, I would argue this is clearly IN the rules (hopefully we'll get some more insights before we play next week!)

[karn987]

The intent seems to me to be for those 2 spells. It says +4ca when casting or channeling grow or mature. Sure there should be some punctuation to make it clearer, but THAT IS what it does.

Casting is not a separate action from using the spells. You must make a Cast or a Channel action in order to use a spell.

It says when casting or channeling because you can do either to use Grow or Mature. This is not referring to those actions outside of those spells. It would have to be worded differently to apply as a general Ca boost, otherwise why would it say Grow or Mature? There would be no reason at all.

Edited October 30, 2010 by karn987

[Stargazer]

yeh I agree although I can see the point, a comma after channeling would make the rule soooo much clearer! however otherwise it's just when casting spells. channelling grow. or using mature. Which really doesn't make sense...

[karn987]

When you wish to use a spell, you must make a Cast or Channel action. It's clear once you reread the spell section of the book =).

[M_Ruckuss]

So channelling is like focusing a shot??? As in you can "channel" and get a plus flip to casting your spells, picking the highest?

Honestly, i've effectively read it as "casting or growing or maturing". And your right that wouldnt really make sense, baring in mind as well ive never even had any models capable of shooting in any of my crews and honestly havent even heard of channeling.

As I said to stargazer (a reg opponent and friend of mine) thats why ive posted it up, to see if others had read it differently. Can see quite clearly that I have read it wrong (presuming I am getting the def of channeling right now?)

The chances of a 12 or 13 hitting my hand, or after her 2 attempts to cast it in 2 turns getting it off are quite high so even if i havent found a way of doing it more easily its still doable...

Edited October 31, 2010 by McDoogle

[M_Ruckuss]

Have read it now and understand it. So yeah, see it's no possible. Still think the list/tactice is possible tho. Thats what the post was supposed to be focsued on!!lol Just means she may suffer a few wounds (which Nekima would help heal after a few turns anyway, How do you think it would work?

[karn987]

30ss

Lilith (Cache 5)

Nekima (13ss)

Lilitu (7ss)

3 Terror Tots (9ss)

Would then inlclude either a black blood shamen or another tot and a cherub at 35ss.

Hmmm its not a bad list, its putting all your eggs in one basket to start with and using Nekima for her blood to grow the tots right off the bat is an ok strategy. Rembere, it's a (0) action to do and Instictual lets you do another but different (0) action so you could only do it once a turn.

But besides that, I really dont like taking a lot of Nekima's wounds for blood because she is so expensive. I really feel like I hold her back when I drain her down so low because it makes her to easy to kill at that point).

I would suggest trading in 2 tots for a Young for more power at the start. But otherwise, the Lilitu would net no wound loss each turn as long as it stayed near Nekima, so it certainly could work. Lilitu just drags in the food and Nekima butchers it =)

[M_Ruckuss]

Rembere, it's a (0) action to do and Instictual lets you do another but different (0) action so you could only do it once a turn.

But besides that, I really dont like taking a lot of Nekima's wounds for blood because she is so expensive. I really feel like I hold her back when I drain her down so low because it makes her to easy to kill at that point).

I would suggest trading in 2 tots for a Young for more power at the start. But otherwise, the Lilitu would net no wound loss each turn as long as it stayed near Nekima, so it certainly could work. Lilitu just drags in the food and Nekima butchers it =)

Cl, i'll remember that about (0) actions

I can see your points. I think that at 30ss its really Nekima OR Lelu/Lilitu. It can be played, but until Lelu shows up, even with Nekimas regen shes still losing 2wds a turn. Plus Nekima would become pretty fragile...

Other than a hilarious-to-play 30ss 10 Terror Tot list I think I like my original list atm:

Have found that Blackblood can activate, gain a blood counter, move and pull the Nephilim forwards. Nekima can also activate, also losing some wounds and gaining a second counter. I should then be able to turn 2 terror tots into young nephilim and regain some wounds on these characters next turn. Activating Nekima last turn 2 also allows my entire crew (bar lilith but master of malifaux...) to ignore terrain through fly. Meanwhile cherub and lilith can either/and/or cast illusionary woods and/or earthquake to keep the crew moving. I recently played the perfectly (as in an earlier post) until I exposed Nekima...

If I can keep the blackblood near her so she can fly , she can boost my combat models to have flurry. Plus the mask to CB from Nekima, FLAY FLAY FLAY. Also forgot to use "Black Blood" rule/abiltiy in first 2 games-schoolboy error lol!

I would Love a Lilitu in there, and could do Lelu, Lilitu, Nekima and a Terror Tot (or a waiting-to-be-a-woe!) but prefer the 1sr list overall I think. More fun. Growing Nephilim reminds me of "Digimon" (if you remember it!) which I used to watch with my then-kid-brother. Its one of my fav things about a crew, and why (i think) I generally prefer to start with tots (and hat they are fast becoming my absolute fav wyrd model!)

Also, one point I dont get and my gaming corcle all dont agree on is: can I choose to fail a willpower or defense duel, (say for transpostion or lure) or do I have to flip and then cheat low so I fail? I genuinely cant find this and would like to know (especially for the Belle in my McMourning crew)

[karn987]

Lilitu will lose 3 a turn, heal 2 from her Twisted Thoughts if you target her with it, and Regen 1 from Nekima. Net loss, 0 wds.

Yup I remember Digimon, the Mature Nephilim even looks like one of them

To your last question, see the errata. If your model bets the resist total of a spell cast by a friendly model, you may chose instead to have it equal the resist number (thus failing). You still have to make the resist flip, but even if you get a red joker, you can chose to just equal the total and fail. It's in the errata, dig into it. There are lots of gems like that in it. Be sure to view the extra errata, and FAQ while your at it in their entirety as they have a lot of nice updates etc.

[M_Ruckuss]

Clcl will download and read!!!

Hmmm, that makes the list more playable, although theres either the prob as self-harming nekima or waiting until your in combat. May have that as list number 2 for a giggle. Cheers for the input (again!) lol

[M_Ruckuss]

A few q's after a recent 30ss 3 way with 'Tina and Ramos.

I took Nekima, Lilitu and 3 Tots.

I kept Lilitu near Nekima and se;lf harmed Nekima turns 1 and 2 to summon a Lelu.

Q1)CAN LILITU HEAL HERSELF USING TWISTED THOUGHTS?

If she can, then she can loose 0 wounds when near Nekima

Q2) I WON THE GAME, BUT IS THIS LIST GOINGTO BE FEASBILE IN A SERIES OF GAMES?

Q3)WOULD I BE BETTER OF STICKING WITH THE BBS (WHICH I AM STARTING TO LIKE MORE) OR EVEN USING AND GROWING 5 TOTS INSTEAD?

My thoughts on this would be using Nekima to make 5 tots fly, and mobbing targets with them (maybe 2-3 between them and Nekima). This would give me 4 BC, or 4 young Nephilm (potentially) the next turn. I have been self harming, growing then attacking. Is this way a better method??

I know alot of people like taking Young Nephs to start, but I honestly prefer taking Tots, as I feel (at this ss cost at least) Nekima and Lilith (with Cherub casting love/&/or Illusionary wood) allow me to move and strike turn 2.

I did love Lelu and Lililtu, and think I prefer them to young (and maybe even mature in some ways) but can I really afford to potentially hamstring myself in turns 1 and 2, as with only taking lilitu I really want a Lelu on the board ASAP. Her lure and healing is also really useful, especially when gaining BC's with Nekima. She and Nekima also allow for a Lelu, Lilitu Nekima and Lilith to hit and heal.

Q4)IM PROBABLY JUST BEING STUPID BUT AS NEKIMA GIVE OTHER MODELS REGEN 1, THE REGEN DOES NOT START WITH THAT MODEL, SO COULD BE DESCRIBED AS BEING "GAINED" DOES THIS MEAN THAT WHEN A LELU/LILITU GAINS A WOUND FROM THIS REGEN, ITS COUNTERPOINT WOULD ALSO GAIN A WOUND UPON ITS ACTIVATION

(im probably just missing a point in the rules here but thought i'd ask however unlikely this being allowed is.

[karn987]

Q1) Yes she can. It doesn't say "another" so she can target herself with it and as per the marshal's, a model can always draw los to it's self.

Q2) It can be if you play it right... you have some serious speed, power, and adaptability within that list. I think it will do well if you allow yourself to flow with the coarse of the game and adapt your strategies to each game. But over-all... yes I think it will do well.

Q3) I have never personally been a fan of Tot mobs because it leaves to much to chance and they are not terribly strong models. They are great for their points, but they are still only 3ss models and have a hard time fighting hte more powerful models.

I agree, I like to take Tots over young at the start, but that's more for fluff reasons and fun then serious competitiveness.

I also LOVE Lelu and Lilitu and would take them every time over Young when I have the points. I think they are worlds better, but thats me =D. I mesh with them well and can use them, some people just don't mesh with them well (they don't like the trick's etc). So really its your choice, but for your points, I say the twins every time.

Black Blood Shaman is rather good to, but he is a support model and I feel he is like Nekima, they only appear in big games (or specially designed small games) and need a solid crew to support. Alone they are not worth their points 100%, so I would say no to BB at 30ss with Nekima in the list. At 35ss, sure go for it, I use him all the time at that level.

As I have said before, I would take a Lelu and not try to summon one as it's very hard to get one out. Though with Nekima on the board, you can give Lilitu the additional Mask to her Ca, so all you need is a 13 and 2 blood tokens ><. So again, I don't think it is worth it as a viable strategy. Just pay for a Lelu.

Q4) Yes it would but Lelu already has Regen 2 so it would not stack with the Regen 1 and it's built in Regen 2 would take prescidence. But that is how the twins heal 4 wds each a turn. But to give you a solid answer, yes if one part has Regen and heals from it, the other half heals to.

[M_Ruckuss]

Q1) Q4) Yes it would but Lelu already has Regen 2 so it would not stack with the Regen 1 and it's built in Regen 2 would take prescidence. But that is how the twins heal 4 wds each a turn. But to give you a solid answer, yes if one part has Regen and heals from it, the other half heals to.

See this is where I get confused: malignant force state "if this model is healed from any source other than a friendly lilitu, one friendly lilitu heals the same number of wounds"

So in effect the lelu heals himself with regen, allowing the lilitu to simulatneously regenerate, and vice versa with lilitus twisted thoughts ability. I assume the abiltiy is worded this way to stop a chain reaction of say 4 heals across 2 lelus and a 2 lilitius.

All of you points are (as usual!) fair. So I could take Lilitu, Lelu, Nekima, Lilith and then either a cherub or a terror tot.

I take it you would recommend the tot?

Puts me at 30ss dead on, with 35ss probably being another tot and the cherub?

To be fair I now have a Nekima/shaman list, a waldegeist list, an old school neph list and the lelu/lilitu combos. And thats before i toy with the idea of losing Nekima (heresy!)

[Wodschow]

There's a good reason for the wording on Same Malignant Force.

Otherwise it'd go like this every turn.

Lelu heals 2Wd from Regeneration

-> Lilitu heals 2Wd because Lelu heals 2Wd

-> Lelu heals 2Wd because Lilitu heals 2Wd

-> Lilitu heals 2Wd because Lelu heals 2Wd

-> Lelu heals 2Wd because Lilitu heals 2Wd

-> you get the point..

They heal alot each turn, but not an infinite amount

I'd say that Terror Tots are always a good idea in a list that features Nekima, simply because she makes it so easy to grow them further. As is the Desperate Mercenary is a cheap way of getting some Blood Counters for growing (but you're probably already aware of this since you say you have a BBS list).

Including both Lelu, Lilitu AND Nekima is alot of points though.. You're going to be outactivated most of the time, but if you don't mind that go ahead. You could consider taking only Lilitu and growing Lelu later, it takes a high card though, just another possibility for saving a few SS.

How do you make an 'old school' neph list with Nekima though? That is the true heresy..

[karn987]

Yup Woodschow beat me to it by... oh 17 hours heh =P.

But yup, thats how their healing works and the exact reason why it's worded that way.

Any way, Tots are nice. I don't like to swarm them, but I do like 2 - 3 per list.

Also the Twins + Nekima is 27ss... even in a 35ss game thats only 8ss to toy around with before you start eating your cache. So it's all up to how your going to play. I've had good success with a list like this in the past, but it's a harder game to play. But if you get it right, its hard to beat =D.

Lilith

Nekima

Lelu

Lilitu

Terror Tot

Terror Tot

Cherub

But yeah, sounds like your starting to develop your lists with Lilith and your own play style. Good to hear! Hope your enjoying her and good luck =D

[M_Ruckuss]

I'd say that Terror Tots are always a good idea in a list that features Nekima, simply because she makes it so easy to grow them further.

As is the Desperate Mercenary is a cheap way of getting some Blood Counters for growing (but you're probably already aware of this since you say you have a BBS list).

How do you make an 'old school' neph list with Nekima though? That is the true heresy..

Thanks for explaining it!

I know, the extra cast makes it really easy to grow them, love doing it!

Not fond of the deperate merc idea, as effective as it is!

I think alot of it is situatioal; if im playing a game when I can afford to be slower turns 1 and 2 then I can include her with the intention to summon a Lelu. In quicker games tho, I really like the BBS, cherub and 3 tots. Take wound on BBS and Nekima, run BBS forward, pull everyone 4, let Nekima give everyone fly snd then run across the table!

Nekima in an old school list...35ss?

Lilith

Nekima 13

1 Young Nephilim 6

Black Blood Shamen 6

3 Terror Tots

Play your cards right thats a mature Nephilim turn 1, with all the tots (hopefully) maturing/growing turns 2-3.

Gain lots of BC with drain blood and blood sense. Could also drop BBS if u want and grab another young or some tots...

[M_Ruckuss]

But yeah, sounds like your starting to develop your lists with Lilith and your own play style. Good to hear! Hope your enjoying her and good luck =D

Thanks Kharn. Im absolutely loving her and the combos avaliable...oponents dont like it when she comes to play (cackles insanely.....)

[Wodschow]

Nekima in an old school list...35ss?

Lilith

Nekima 13

1 Young Nephilim 6

Black Blood Shamen 6

3 Terror Tots

How can this be considered old school? xD

[M_Ruckuss]

How can this be considered old school? xD

Perhaps it isnt but I would see the theme as being old school, as you are powering up Nephilim rather than going for some of the new and shinier things.

The Black blood ay be pushing it a bit, and is mainly there for the extra movement and BC, to get the mature nephilim ASAP

You could go for the extra nephilim and go all out oldies plus Nekima-should be a pretty straight forward but hammer-like list. Or you could lose the BBS and go:

Lilith

Nekima

Mature Nephilim

4 Tots (or 2 Tots and a Young)

I suppose the list isnt old school; perhaps I should have said that I like the idead of Nekima and then finding ways to "digi-volve" (if you ever watched digimon if not then power up with steroids may do!) your book 1 Nephilim (which the BBS helps with, but isnt essential for.

Bascially im a sucker for the lilith/nekima combo (meant innocently.... !)

[karn987]

So hows this been working for you McDoogle? Crushing pitiful humans and bathing in their blood yet? :vb_devil:

[oozeboss]

(meant innocently.... !)

Now there's a unique concept for this forum!

:vb_devil:

[xxXhayzelXxx]

*giggles* naughty naughty! I agree sisters are fun to play with....