Maniacal_cackle

2 hours ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

I think this is correct. Adding a curated ban list from one player (or even a group) is just a subjective enterprise by its nature (if efficient card draw engines are the issue why isn't Transmortis or Guard being banned, eg). Local metas play with all kinds of "gentlefolks' agreements" or TO rulings, but the moved goal posts on this are pretty souring, particularly as a Guild player.

The goalposts didn't ever really move, since the goal is to make a format that is fun, fair, and balanced competitively.

Ideally there'd have been pretty clear errata cycles to align with that since previously it largely worked that way, but for whatever reason we got an errata 1/3 the size of normal.

Anyway I hope people give it a go once they've had a chance to play Madness content for a while, as I think the ~640 cards left in the format will offer a pretty sweet experience.

55 minutes ago, esqulax said:

I get that the versatiles are banned for Yannics sake, but they have been through an errata cycle, no ? 

Possibly.

Normally wyrd erratas 20-30 models and now only did about 10, so some adjusting was required xD

1 hour ago, Rufess said:

Seems like I am the only one on earth who has concern, but I still want to share these numbers I found in the errata.

 

Lost Knowledge

• Card drawing: 2 cards
• Card required: 5+
• Action required: 1~2 Action
• Activation required: 1~2 model

Raiding Operation(2 targets)

• Card drawing: 2 cards
• Card required: 6+
• Action required: 3 Bonus Action
• Activation required: 3 models

Raiding Operation(3targets)

• Card drawing: 3 cards
• Card required: 8+
• Action required: 4 Bonus Action
• Activation required: 4 models

 

So all numbers in Raiding Operation are greater than Lost Knowledge, it must be a straight up better Action.🙃

Models vary in how good they are at any particular task, but I think you will find Sammy draws cards a lot better than most Lost Knowledge models xD

58 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

And they still suck 

I haven't seen Witness use them and they have even less synergy and even less of a place in Wizz-Bang. A huge missed opportunity, unfortunately.

They're pretty good in witness, but Gamin just blow them out of the water IMO.

The guilty will be friendly and enemy, so believe the hazardous would apply to your side.

12 hours ago, Arlos896 said:

I'll say that I have a rough idea for how to unpack the crew and a few variations to account for issues, but after that I do struggle with the potential for half the engine being scattered across the board.

 More games may help with how to handle the later turns and seeing if I can keep the shielded stacking. 

Usually there's two potential answers to this I think.

One option is to keep the bubble together, and send stuff out to a flank as needed.

Second option is to get your unpack launching your stuff, then the original support swaps to scheming.

Not sure which is correct here, but I'd start with one?

Let me snag something from the discord as well...

Quote

to build on what I said earlier about calling it Balancefaux...

It isn't Wyrd's job to focus solely on game balance. Their job is to make the best damn game on the market.

This includes game balance at the competitive level, but also they have to worry about every other level of play from once a year players to hobbyists to tournament grinders. They have to worry about shipping, SKUs, LGSs, errata rates, card preferences, people losing their painted crews to nerfs, finding a solution that solves a thousand different problems.

As a bystander I have the luxury of going "oh this game isn't optimized for someone as competitive as I am. Maybe I can tinker out a format that focuses on what I care about most (balance)."

So I hope I didn't come off overly harsh on everyone's favorite game company 😅

..... <skip to next message>

Malifaux ISNT balanced but is still the best damn game on the market. Having broken masters doesn't make the game a failure.

Balancefaux as an alternative format aims to be balanced. If it ends up with a broken master, the format is a failure.

So I think that this format has different objectives from Malifaux overall, has a niche target audience, and has a different definition of failure.

If people tried the format and it got broken by Yannic Von Schill or any other master, we could objectively say that I failed to make a format that works.

Wyrd has not failed at all - they have made a great game that pleases many audiences.

7 hours ago, Adran said:

 

If 33 hadn't been errata'd would you have just banned all non masters from Malifaux Burns on the assumption that only titles got errata'd suggesting that only titles went through the process?

Well, the problem started when I expected ~30 errata cards and we got ~10.

Yannic Schill has been the constant feedback of the last event, but just banning the Outcasts stuff without touching the resser stuff for example feels weird.

Although the main thing is I kept tinkering until I found a format I liked.

Overall I think in my metas, if people give this a shot they will end up enjoying it.

6 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

 

If I were to organize a tournament next month, I would have to think long and hard between this version of Balancefaux vs simply banning Madness but I wouldn't go for "normal" Malifaux. Then the attendees can choose to participate or not based on how they feel about the format on offer.

2 hours ago, Cats Laughing said:

I still have concerns with the idea of banning clearly "not overpowered" stuff (Asami2 in the previous cycle and likely some stuff in the current cycle), but I'm coming around on the reasoning of why you're doing full categories as opposed to picking and choosing specific items. It does take most of your bias out of it and I get that a full consensus is hard.

Also, it feels like the format is catered to a more seasoned competitive audience as newer players are more likely to be caught out with their new purchases being banned for reasons they won't understand (and potentially not having any backup options to use instead).  With that said, something like a worldwide vassal tourney seems like a good place for this format (as no purchases would be invalidated) and local TOs should read the temperature of their community*.  I agree with Math above that TOs should feel free to alter their tourney to match their community needs

I think this format will shine when mixed with standard.

If a TO organizes three tournaments, they might find the standard format gets stale.  So doing two standard, one balancefaux will give a more enjoyable variety IMO (or whatever mix).

2 hours ago, Cats Laughing said:

I do want to give props for editing your original post to call the basic game "Standard" instead of your original term, which might feel true to you and others but was quite loaded.

Yeah wasn't ideal  xD

For further context,  I am planning on playing that format (standard) and enjoying it - just not 100% of the time. So the original name was a tongue-in-cheek poke, but it did not go over well so I removed it as not helpful.

1 minute ago, Azahul said:

Bayou starter is in Malifaux Burns for what it's worth. Page 188 onwards.

Oh thank you. What all starters are there?

30 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Out of interest, were there other versatiles besides Yannic that were deemed as problematic balance-wise?

Also, there's no mention of the Bayou starter in the list?

I couldn't quite remember the Starters, but I'm pretty sure Bayou and ES released the year before.  Neverborn and Outcasts were in Malifaux Burns I believe.

I mainly am worried about Perdita with guild mage and Von Schill with yannic.  And while yes I could just target those two, it'd be real rich for me the resser player to go "Enslaved and Gwisin are fine.  But Outcasts and Guild are clearly broken."

I also wasn't satisfied with just removing the madness content.

Removing these ~20 cards is the first moment that I felt like I had a good format. It is a bit clunky, but I hope the actual play experience will be excellent.

With other measures, I think they would have been easier to market, but ultimately made for a less fun and balanced format.

It was also after the conversations I had around the first Balancefaux event, where Yannic VS was constantly cited. But I didn't want to pick exactly which things were too strong so I did it by categories.

51 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Interesting! What for?
 

I think she's still decent with LJ, probably both versions actually. LJ 2 support 33 quite well (adversary, free focus, burying models, etc...). For LJ1, grabs 7s from the discard pile to guarantee one of the suits of the leap.

"Hit two important suited TNs" is just generically good tech for everyone xD

I've even seen 33 used OOK in outcasts (though that was stronger with pine box).

To shed more light on the general thinking:

I did not really focus on what content needed banning (like Damian needs a ban and people say Kastore might not).

I instead focused on removing a chunk of the game, and checking game balance. After removing Madness and seeing the new errata I did not feel satisfied.

So I removed another chunk (Malifaux Burns versatiles).

And then I hit a point where I felt like Balance was really good and there were tons of options for the remaining ~640 cards.

Is it a perfect solution?  No, but I'm not looking to fix everything. Just to make a format that is fun, balanced, and competitive.

Next step is to do another event and see how it runs.

18 minutes ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

I'll just flag here that I'm skeptical about trying to add a curated ban list to the rule of "has this been through an errata cycle already?" I can't picture using the format with the armchair quarterbacking of "Wyrd should have addressed X." I still like the original notion and might try running it or suggesting it for a local event, though.

There's like an hour long conversation on the LFG discord if anyone wants to really explore that issue!

Well, the initial Balancefaux experiments are in, and we have a new errata, so time to update the format and introduce a 'new' one!

These are the two main tournament types I'll be running for now:

Standard, anything goes:

Play Malifaux using the regular rules (so double masters and Madness content is allowed).

Balancefaux:

The idea of this format started by banning things until they go through an errata cycle. It has since grown to adjust to the new smaller errata.

Uses the Singles format.

All Madness of Malifaux content is banned. Versatiles from Malifaux Burns are banned. So any models with the following keywords are banned...

• Arcanists: Witness or Watchmen.
• Bayou: Angler or Jockey
• Explorer's Society: Bygone and the Yaksha model
• Guild: Cavalier, Guild mage, and Gatling Gunner
• Neverborn: Returned or Grim.
• Outcasts: Bygone and the four Outcast Syndicate models
• Ressers: Returned, Enslaved Spirits, and Gwisin
• Ten Thunders: Red Library, Story, and Sayuri.

And that's it! For the other ~640 cards in the game, go wild!

I've run through a lot of ideas for what could be removed, and this seemed like the smallest, least biased intervention that led to a prediction of a balanced format. Now time to try it out!

For those currently in a Balancefaux tournament, these changes won't go into effect until the event is over or the TO says otherwise.

6 hours ago, Armour said:

So how are people feeling about the Balancefaux format, now that the November errata has cut the best Malifaux Burns master titles down to size?

Are the Madness crews just going to run away with everything at this point?

I've certainly had some people go  "oh  Balancefaux seems really appealing now!"

Will update the format soon (in a new post).

3 hours ago, Banjulhu said:

 

Still feels like all that has happened here is a downgrade without adding anything back to make up for the loss.

Looks like they buffed equilibrium range, she has a powerful suite of options for her bonus action now, friendly marshals can ignore coffins for LOS and cover, Entropic Debt is more reliable and hands out adversary...

So her support options have gotten very strong at first glance.

Well, Yan Lo and Kirai have been nerfed.  All my advice on them is outdated xD

If you like watching vassal games, check out the Malifaux World Series on YouTube. Can see some great resser games there (with a lot of Yan Lo xD)

3 hours ago, Zebo said:

Yea, a model with an 8" Ranged gun can hit reliably 2-3 targets with a weapon that can hit models in 2" AOE... 

I know Plaag is a bit abrasive, but worth noting it is more like 13 inches with run and gun and potentially 6 inches apart with triggers xD

I do think Mad Dog has some distinct weaknesses, but also get why the Arcanist players hate him xD

10 hours ago, Aeschere said:

Thank you for those answers. It looks like Schtook is the current top tier master. 
 

@Maniacal_cacklehow would you rate the current master list? I have access to all the masters and I am curious to hear how they rank. 
 

My meta is usually quite competitive. We aim for relaxed tournament play. So high performing lists, focus on winning but with an open mindset where we understand that mistakes can be made. 

I don't think tier lists apply well to Malifaux, so that's tricky to answer. I also rate masters as a package (so Yan lo 1 and 2 are still just one master for me).

There's also a rumor of an imminent errata circling due to some cards appearing online.

I'm also not an expert on all the reseer masters, but...

Yan lo is busted IMO. He is very difficult to play, but for me he is one of the top five masters in the game. I'm basically soloing him atm and am in the Finals of the World Series with him. Archie and Valedictorian unlock his full power.

Von Schtook has a very powerful keyword. I hear people say he is very solid, but after the nerfs I don't think he'd be in the top 10 masters of the game.

McMourning - most people think he is weak, but apparently Plaags meta has some success with him. I feel like if I sat down and played 20 games with him I'd get very good with him.

Molly - my most played master this edition.  The things she does well have been a bit power crept, so she is just outclassed now.  Still a powerful option, but you basically have to ignore her keyword except Archie and crooligans.  One of the most flexible list builders in the game.

Reva - opinions range from garbage to OP.  I think she is very strong with some notable weaknesses on both titles, but can be overcome.

Jack Daw - super broken if opponents don't know what's coming, but falls off a bit at top tiers.  Solidly strong.

Seamus - I feel like he struggles with some weaknesses he can't overcome (super card dependent with few tools to improve his hand), but solid.

Kirai - ugh I hate playing her cuz so many models to manage.  People say she is broken but she doesn't dominate tournaments. Often leads to one sided games IMO.

Overall Ressers don't have any terrible masters.   Molly is probably bottom of the list for most players, but she is my second best master in the faction for my style.  She struggles with GG3 though. Very challenging pools for her are common.

Note that Plaags meta is one of the best in the world IMO.  I don't always fully adopt his advice, but always worth at least examining his claims.

1 hour ago, Plaag said:

molly now plays bad

schtook1, reva2, both seamus, kirai2, morning2 now plays very well

I'm curious - what sort of Mcmourning2 crews do you see doing well?

Most people I encounter don't like him.

I think the issue with Mad Dog is that he is so strong against armor that he sort of warps the game.

 But outcasts in general are so strong against armor that it is fine xD

If ressers got a mad dog I think that'd be a bigger problem.

How competitive is your meta?  If it isn't super cutthroat, then all resser masters have something to offer.

Molly is better using a wide range of models in her crew adapting to situations, so I'd start with von Schtook. He has been nerfed but the crew is still strong.

They have a lot of tools for GG3, and WI be a nice reintroduction to the game as you learn about Malifaux Burns. This was a complete game changer of an expansion as every master now has two titles (completely different Stat cards).

So I'd say get some warm up games in, then find out about Von Schtooks title (which is pretty strong).

Molly is super fun but more challenging and requires more knowledge of your opponents crew IMO.

Yeah, I think that in general most things shouldn't ignore cover/concealment/friendly fire unless there's a good reason (thematic, clear-cut mechanics of the crew, makes sense for the ability, stops a really bad anti-synergy with the crew, etc).

As one example, Underbrush markers are concealing and it would be really poor if the crew was affected by that concealment (although even in that case, many of the models ignore the underbrush markers instead of all concealing).

EDIT: Also 2" abilities. I feel like those are essentially melee range and should ignore concealment xD Zipp's crew for example feels a bit silly with Beau's Lead the Way.

4 hours ago, unti said:

This sounds awesome. Have you tried to bog down the 2strat markers in the middle with toshiro and his summoned ashigarus with range 2" melee? Or is it too much hand pressure for Molly2?

Yeah needing 12s to summon just ends up being so difficult. Only 9 cards in the deck can do it.