Bluefyr

So having discussed this with the group of people i play with we boiled it down to the following. They dont enjoy it because they can see by turn 3/4 how hard it makes their attack / defense flips and that they lose more often than not before cheating. There is no counter play to it except to kill those models asap. 

I then compared it to Parker's crew abilities to put down an incredible amount of scheme markers (yours and theirs) and then use those scheme markers for fast on models that hit with + flips built in. There is nothing you can do to stop it except to kill those models.

In Malifaux crews arent balanced perfectly against each other, this isnt chess. Most crews have something they can do that others can not. That Parker Crew can kill and scheme like a boss, dreamer wishes he had that much killing / scheming power. However Late game Dreamer with his card engine can actually stand up for a bit and get some schemes done. 

So i guess what i'm getting at is each crew is good at something that i've seen and you have to play to your strengths. Parker was able to out score me early but i was able to catch up late game. Obviously the pool of schemes and strats changes every single game so you wont be playing the same way twice too often. So looking at just one ability in a vacuum isnt the most helpful. I think you need to play games and see just how good or bad it is in the different schemes and strats. 

10 hours ago, BimVooDoo said:

Also Gamble your Life should be reworked, making it an attack action or at least being able to cheat the duel and not the dmg flip. 

I think this is the part that broke some peoples brains. Not being able to do anything against it sucks. I would like to see this be cheatable on the flip so my opponent has some say with the stitched being able to grab a card you've taken out of the game now. At least then they aren't sitting there knowing they are going to lose 90% of the time when i have thrown a 12 /13 out of the deck.
 

Been playing dreamer a lot lately now that interest has been reignited in the local meta. turn 4 and 5 are brutal for my opponent for sure if they let me get the cards out of my deck. However having played against several ranged heavy lists (parker in particular) I rarely have more than 4-5 quick actions (after turn 1 depending on deployment) doing this a turn because the models they are on are super squishy and die in 1 activation from the opponent. Dreamer can summon in 1 model a turn reliably (2 if its day dreams) and they must now spend an action to use their (quick action) as they are stunned. 

My opponents agree if you leave dreamer alone and let him get the card mechanic going the last 1-2 turns are hugely in your favor as a dreamer player. That being said Parker was outscoring me left and right with his combo of actions dropping / creating scheme markers and just straight up killing things with + to crap ton of gun shots (which also works in melee because they have gun fighter??).

So far dreamer is strong but not crazy unbeatable or even that much of a threat when you start taking out key pieces.

 

So parker just basically auto scores 2 points with his new trigger from dig their graves right? They place our scheme marker in base to base then they die from shots? Or does the place happen after the damage?

On 2/14/2019 at 3:43 PM, Thatguy said:

Yeah. It seems like Black Blood Shamans took a utility hit.

Took a huge utility hit... no reason to ever take more than 1 and thats pushing it now. 

11 hours ago, DumbLuck said:

I feel that if they're going to keep this change to Dismember a few more of the models in her crew need access to the Trigger.

I agree 100%  give that to Nekima and some other melee nephalim, the ones that want to be in combat, not the shaman in the back who has a garbage knife now having to hit an enemy. BLEH  this newest update was garbage for neverborn all over the place.

2 hours ago, Fixxer said:

Rougarou however are not. This is her best minion, no question. Triggers on a rougarou attack are ALL really good. I would recommend that box and Bultungin for some cheaper minion options...  at that point her crew should be solid. 

I have not had luck with Rougarou as they tend to die super fast (1-2 activations from an opponent at most) I do agree Bultungins are great for scheme running or ganging up on people. They are just fun cheap minions.

I use her card draw almost every turn as well but she is not worth 7 SS imo. Lures arent nearly as good with range 12 and guns being range 12 as stated above. I wish she wasnt so lack luster but she is able to be made from a terror tot turn 1 so ... what do i know  Lelu has been a damage champ when he gets there... which isnt as often as i'd like. They both feel really slow.

1 hour ago, Angelshard said:

@Bluefyr please go read the post again, its not 15 times where you removed a weak. Its just after using it 15 times. And if you lose one high card for 14 low cards you're still very much ahead. This ability doesn't screw yoh over, it helps you win games

I disagree on the simple fact that averages dont play into any given game as they require large amounts of data. It becomes luck based to a certain extent and if you get 3 or 4 flips with no low cards you have just set your deck back a chunk with no gain. Yes you can also flip thw opposite but it comes down to luck. Being forced to get rid of a card that you dont want to is a NPE period. 

1 hour ago, Angelshard said:

@Bluefyr Because even with the risk it's already a very strong ability with very little risk. Nothing else in this game can improve your deck.

Look at the math @Andrew James Princep provided in the other Lucid dream thread. After 15 uses your deck has improved your average draw from 7 to 8. That is the same as improving every single one of your stats by one on every model in your crew. Your chances of flipping a moderate or severe on a negative flip goes from 33% to 55%, that is a significant improvement.

These numbers are with the risk of removing a severe. Remove that risk and the ability goes through the roof.

Thats 15 uses... How many games have You been able to use it 15 times and remove a 1-5 for all of those? So far in my 4 games with that iteration I have not. I get some medium cards as well as a high card at least once a game. It just feels awful to have an ability you control screw you over.  

38 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

Presumably so it's an upside on aggregate, rather than at all times?

I don't think any other ability removes cards from your deck, so you couldn't have that risk in another faction. There are plenty of other actions with risks risk/costs like requiring TNs/opposed duels, paying wounds or sacrificing models. 

Lucid dreams has a unique downside because it's a unique effect.

Right but its a negative cost to an ability going off. Put in a target number then. I would rather it fail then to be forces to get rid of a card I dont want to. Or give us a synergistic ability that buffs nightmares in some way since people lose their minds over card / deck mechanics.  

29 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

I don't see why the action doesn't just say "End this models activation" instead of setting things aside until you're done. 

Also, to echo previous sentiments this action was class last week, I don't understand the effort to make it even better. 

Just go back to the previous version, allow some time for testing and point anyone who's worried about ditching high card to some articles on chance.

Why does there need to be a chance to remove a high card at all is my question? Do they just want a risk associated with an ability? I dont see this in other factions or abilities so it honestly has me questioning the reasoning behind it. 

Just now, RatsInTheWalls said:

I also read that as moving the enemy, but it's vague.  Of the two, I certainly prefer enemy.

 

On the whole, I'm underwhelmed.  Opportunist is very weak, and the loss of aura based damaged just feels wrong.  It's got potential, though.  There's a lot of free movement to work with.  one Stunned could potentially move half a crew (if friendlies move).

Its once per activation, and you move the enemy model not ours. So it wouldn't work like that even if it moved friendly models.

1 hour ago, Distruggiuova said:

I read it as if you move the target 2”, is it wrong?

edit: I think the new Woes synergies really well with each other now, I don’t get why you are negative, if it proves to be underpowered after a couple weeks of testing it’ll be adjusted (more damage maybe?) but now it’s a control crew that doesn’t totally invalidate half the enemy’s crew with a bonus action from 6 ss models. It doesn’t seems weak to me.

 

 

You're correct i read it wrong. It does move the enemy model after re-reading it. Thats helpful for survival on Pandora against melee assuming her def trigger goes off. 

I'm negative because i've been playing with and against 4 other factions (gremlins, outcasts, arcanists and ressers) and they all get to buff and synergize with their own models with no negatives to doing it. Most of them get 2 benefits from 1 action. Sometimes from a trigger and sometimes built in. We now have 2 crews that have built in negatives to their actions or have to jump through hoops to get something to go off thats half of what a focus condition does in this crew. 

Its just frustrating seeing old m2e prejudices come out because a master was good then and they hold that against her now (people not playing her and these abilities). If you compare this crew and their abilities to other factions crews abilities and synergy its laughable with this version. I really hope to see this changed in a more positive direction for the crew so that they can do something useful / fun / combo like?.

The one thing i will say that Pandora has going for her which is huge is her 6 inch activation control. This tilts many people if they are bunched up  or even if you catch their master and 1 beater. The fact that she can choose who the next model that activates is causes a massive amount of Salt. When you tell someone no they cant use that model and have to use this model way over here, over and over again while you kill their master who is near pandora and they cant get them out of harms way... it is bad. If you've ever played warmachine in 2nd ed and played against Epic Haley this is the comparison i'm hearing in my meta when i play her. They could care less about the removal of conditions or the stunned or any other abilities as long as they have choices and get to play the game. This feels like they dont get to play when it goes off. 

No one i played with has even come close to seeing her as a counter to condition crews in her previous versions of Open Beta. She still had activation issues to remove conditions to get + on models that you probably dont want to attack, or are really wanting to wait to go with, but cant afford to let a beater have fast and focus. Honestly those synergy crews are amazingly strong and it was nice having Something in our bag to tone them down. Since neverborn has few (zero?) options for synergistic masters in faction atm. (im yet to play Marcus or the guild guy as i didn't pick them up yet).

13 minutes ago, Neverbear said:

Looks like Pandora had a rework similar to Molly! Can't wait to play it! I love that the crew is even more about positioning! I love that opportunist does not randomly counter some crews anymore! Thank you Wyrd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

They literally could have done this several different ways and much better. Why not just give them the + with any condition on the enemy model. Instead they make us put a condition on them to begin with thats a debuff, and then remove it. They literally just needed to take out the "remove the condition from the enemy model" part of their previous version. 

This feels like a straight nerf on top of Misery aura damage being removed. 

Moving something 2 inches after it gets stunned is interesting but its a 4 inch aura when we have 8 inch range on our stat 4 actions that cause stun (outside of candy / pandora).

Pandora has no clear direction of what she wants to be or be doing (a once per activation shockwave and no melee, a 4 inch aura to move models, a 6 inch aura to activate different models... it feels all over the place (control maybe?. I feel like the theme is lack luster in every area, damage, survival, scheme running, etc with no real synergy except now a 4 inch bubble that lets you move a model 2 inches once per activation.

FLucid Dream - - - -Reveal the top three cards of your Fate Deck, choose one revealed non-Joker and remove it from the game, then discard one other revealed card and set the last card aside. After this model Activates, shuffe the set-aside card back into this model's Fate Deck.

I like this one a little better but im getting tired of neverborn being picked to have a negative effect with their abilities. Why are we forced to get rid of one if we flip a 13 / 13 / 13 for example or even a 9/ 9 / 9. Why cant it say "you may remove up to 1 card. Discard 2 if you dont remove any, then shuffle 1 back into your deck." Or even discard all cards not removed from the game. Why are we forced to hurt ourselves on an unlucky flip??

This frustration ties in with the changes to pandora which forces us to remove negative conditions we just put on the enemy to use a key word on all woes. It seems like we have to jump through hoops and waste actions or choose bad choices to get these things. Please enlighten me if there are other crews in other factions that have a negative tied into their abilities like these??

Also still no melee for pandora or candy?  

5 minutes ago, thebarbalag said:

Can I just say, "Thank you, Dev Team!" Thank you for listening, and thank you for configuring the Woes into something I'm genuinely excited to play with. Going to try to put them on the table tonight. Thanks!!!

What exactly are you excited about (looking for the bright side of this)? I am honestly a little disappointed with the changes. Misery aura is a 4 inch conditional move if you give stunned out you get to move 2 inches... it seems too small to be useful most the time. Our damage output is still lackluster in this group and even more so now with no more ping damage from cheating. 

Pandora's def/wp trigger at least is useable even if stunned got nerfed and she isnt going to survive. (2 inch move away after giving them stunned should help theoretically when you get it off)

Opportunist is now just bad on most of the woes (stunned is 1 condition that we still cant give out very often, stat 4 on sorrows). You're giving the debuff, then removing it for a + on attack only. Why not just focus for the + to damage as well and leave the debuff on them. Its silly compared to many other factions giving out buffs to themselves and then using them to their full effects. We have to take 2 actions for something a focus can do anyways for 1. 

18 hours ago, Passenty said:

For starter they should give Pandora and candy engagement so the opponent cant just walk away from them

100% agree here!

 

4 hours ago, Da Git said:

as it would still leave the same problem in that it's much better against condition-based crews than non-condition based crews. That's why I suggested it only work against Stunned (which most/all of the crew gives out to varying degrees from Stat4 Woes to irresistable Candy (got I hate you for this ability!), then the crew can be strengthened/weakened on their own merits without considering who they're facing.

I immensely dislike it being only against stunned. Stunned goes away after they activate, we dont have reliable ways to give it out to more than 1 model at a time (except pandora) and Candies literally puts it on them when they activate so it goes away when they are done. 

I do like the idea of if something within x inches gains stunned you get a push / move etc but it would have to be a big (8?) range to be worth while. 

I can see where removing their conditions is super strong and counter. I do wish we had a way to remove them though that was not so wide spread. That way it becomes a tactical choice instead of a, I am removing it for a buff every single time on every single model in this crew.

12 minutes ago, Sybaris said:

Just pasting my suggestion from the battle report section.

How about adding the following trigger for Lorelei, the Living Blade

 Once per activation. After resolving:  Perform the Hurl Corpse action.

I would love a trigger i could use on my second or third attack. I find her really boring to play honestly

14 hours ago, Zebo said:

17 hours ago, Bluefyr said:

Then if they do get engaged you just move out, run and gun shoot, run and gun shoot (assuming fast). and are now farther away than they can reasonably charge.

You can only charge once per activation. But if your experience says that they're fine as they are, I can't do nothing but respect it. 

Ahh you're correct the run and gun is only once, i think i misread it, thank you for the heads up. I dont think i ever used it more than once anyways, moving out of melee, then run and gun, then shoot again usually did enough as it was. (i had no problem getting fast on them most turns).

14 hours ago, Zebo said:

He shoots with 5 and 2/4/5 with no chances of increasing the damage, I wouldn't count him as a range threat. Although you could be right with the obey-master thing. I was thinking to use it to force to interact and drop an enemy marker, and felt I was the smartest in town xD. Could be something like ss-or-marker, or maybe extra damage-or-discard (hi, mental trauma)? The fact is that Six-Shooters is forced to be your main action, and only has one useful trigger, and no option to achieve it more easily. 

I would open to more scheme markers / extra damage but he isnt a magic user so outside of his master status i dont see him forcing people to use / drop / retrieve SS. Though they are physical currency in the world so maybe he's robbing them of their SS? Again i personally dont like that as an option as SS are points in your list building but thats just me.
He is a ranged threat though as he is 12 inches away. Look at Nekima who is a melee beater with a once per activation trigger and a trigger you can only use if you kill them and have a model close by to use the corpse token. Being ranged he has more flexibility and threat is all i was getting at, not that he was a beater from ranged. We have Leve for that

11 hours ago, Zebo said:

Parker: while is funny, he still needs a bit of help to taste as a Master. All his tactical needs enemy markers, his "main" attack is low damage and with small possibilities to help his crew, and his other attack may not be cast twice over the same target. 

I've seen a lot of restrictions on no more than once per target in the various factions i play and play against. I dont think thats a problem really.

I would add the Pilfer trigger to Stick Up, what makes a 50% chance to steal ss from ss users. Or maybe add the ss stealing to the own Stick Up Mechanic, and the attack force to discard cards to avoid damage + steal ss, and with one trigger to steal an extra ss. Also adding the Drop It trigger wouldn't be harmful 

I think you're going too far with the Pilfer trigger. Stealing SS from people is huge and also a super negative play experience. Its bad enough when you have to discard cards but you are straight up messing with their list now (SS are in the cost of their list). I would strongly argue against stealing from them. Gaining one on the other hand is ok imo as it isnt a double gut punch. 

For his Six-Shooters, maybe a kind of new trigger like

 Thanks for Your Cooperation: Non-Master only. The target may discard a ss. If it does, add a ss to this crew's ss pool. If it does not, the target must take a  non action taken and controlled by that model that does not attach upgrade or list a model by name.

I personally dont like the thought of him being an obey master on top of a huge range threat, gun line list. It doesnt really fit. I like the name but maybe instead of dealing with SS and taking actions have it do something with fast or slow / focus / push. The name brings to mind a bank / train robbery.

Convict Gunslinger: sorry, keep thinking that, while their damage is too high, a Stat 5 minion with no way to hit the Onslaught trigger shouldn't be 8ss. A Rabble Riser cost 6ss and has the same stats, HtW instead Bulletproof, Blade Rush instead Run & Gun, Fading (Misfit) instead Quick Draw, Flurry instead Life of Crime, Quick Reflexes instead Onslaught... Not saying Convict Gunsligers are not better, because Convict has and may shoot, but there's not so much difference between them to cost 2ss more. People are afraid of a trigger that only occurs 25% of succeeding duels (with a Stat 5, don't forget). The only thing they do is to shoot, and they're not enough good for their current cost. 

Having played these guys several times and in other lists for 9 points they are still really strong. Stat 5 minion isnt a bad thing. Thats actually average and is beating most def or tying which is again beating. Run and gun is what i think pushes them over the top with fast. Being able to camp at 12 inches and gain fast, focus if you need for the ++ if they are in concealment and still get the straight or + damage is soooo good. Then if they do get engaged you just move out, run and gun shoot, run and gun shoot (assuming fast). and are now farther away than they can reasonably charge. They can take a few hits and that trigger goes off more often than i thought it would. There arent that many high Rams but when you are at a + or ++ its a solid shot.

1 minute ago, Paddywhack said:

That might be a more problem with some crews giving out good conditions too easily than anything else. I think swinging either way can be bad and some actions/abilities were changed during Closed to address that issue. But you are right in that it seems Opportunist is 'all or nothing' in that it can either feel OP to the enemy or useless to the Woes depending on match ups. 

That could very well be. I look at Wong in Gremlins as the Synergy (and insane duel total tests) Master. He can give out glow tokens, make his own dudes take damage to give them damage reduction via glow tokens, which also gives them fast (most the key models). So i removed fast to attack him and then wong blows up my dudes near that model and puts fast back on it again. In several other crews (tara with fast comes to mind) they can easily get it on to models and move it around. These abilities are super strong and honestly i wish Neverborn had more synergy like that. Buffing your own dudes vs countering another list that buffs just seems more fun and strategic.

4 minutes ago, Passenty said:

It is just counters some crews that need their conditions to function, i would happily change opportunist the way I described if only Pandora got anything useful in place of her defensive triger:P

Pandora is a little on the squishy side especially now that stones reduce damage and there is more irreducible damage in the game than i originally though. So yes i would love to see some useful stuff in place of her Def trigger.

I dont see this as an issue. There are so many themes out there that get focus / fast / etc as bonus actions or as triggers to other actions. On top of it Pandora is not a top tier master or theme imo. She's squishy as are most woe models. My opponent didnt have a problem giving out focus / fast to more models than i could remove it from, and the ones i did he just added them back :P so... its helpful but not OP by any means.

On 2/3/2019 at 10:07 AM, Yajnho said:

How did you guys feel about the new version of Lucid Dreams?  There is no mention of it in your report, so I suspect it had zero effect on the game.  Was Dreamers crew able to pitch cards, or was he to card strapped after turn one to use the ability?

This is exactly why i came to look at this Battle Report. Its been the same experience with my games in the meta. 0 impact and almost never used this week.

10 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

@Bluefyr You could put inhuman reflexes on her and use butterfly jump for defence. 

A lelu can be grown into a mature turn one, regurgitate a corpse, then throw it at lelu with the trigger to get first token. After that have a shaman run up and carve a model for a corpse marker. Then activate lelu, walk him up and eat the second marker. You now have a mature at the start of turn two and have saved 4 stones. All it requires are a crow and a mask.

Personally I find there's quite a lot of tricks in the nephelim.

The upgrade is decent but that makes her 17 points then. Though helping her live longer is worth it ill agree.

I totally didnt see the trigger let you remove it for a a heal with the model within 2! That is going to change some things as well. I still feel like someone else should have the throw ability as only Nekima makes it rough, you want her to be attacking (the rest of them dont hit that hard ... Hayreddin yes to some extent and maybe a mature). I will have to play this correctly though and test it. Thank you for the heads up on those. That will change my list i think but worth it