ElPuto

Domador + Pale Rider seems a good synergy.

1 hour ago, FinalForm said:

This is totally based on strat/schemes.
If you want to play nellie bomb on 50ss you can pick say Bishop, Burt or Executioner and franc. And if you are playing against armoured army or something with good protective abilities- you might want a queller for buff.
If you want to play tactical nellie- you don't need bishop or burt. Pick Franc, Phiona and/or Hannah. Rest is up to you.

In current meta state IMO this patterns work in any guild list:
4 guards+ Alisson: Great 20ss piece with cheap 5 activations, tanky tarpit with some good damage potential.
Domador(if you can make a decent convertion)+belle+pale rider: Nice tactical 22ss kit with lots of options (lures, raw damage, high mobility).
And they both work with Nellie pretty good.

And there are some nice single models(not single in case of doggos) that can help with schemes/strat. I prefer such models as: reporter (cheap schemerunner/antischemerunner), performer(toolkit), doggos(cheap fast schemerun), austringers(toolkit) and investigator(if you can make a decent convertion) .

Really helpful mate, thanks!

12 hours ago, FinalForm said:

Well Propoganda -> guilt is so much easier than producing far markers for Hot off presses but if you can, it grants you extra mobility.

In our community most players prefered Burt as cheaper model with same damage track or peacekeeper as more tanky target.
I prefer bishop not because of just raw damage output, but for his insane 8def/8wp with inbuilt trigger against melee models also. This catches opponent in a situation when he is forced to dump tonns of attacks to kill big, well protected model or to ignore guy, who can kill 35ss list on his own.

How will you up the list to 50SS? Phiona maybe? Something specific for the Strategy?
Why the Austringer btw? Just because they're good, or am I missing some synergy here?

Decided to go for the safer list, the one I got in mind for a bit longer and made with models I know better.
Won 9-7 vs Titania in a really close game.

Titania (5SS Cache)
- Pact
- Royal Indignation
- Something something something
Aeslin
- Fears Given Form
- Don't know what else
Nekima
- Fears Given Form
- Don't know what else
The Thorn
The Tooth
Young Nephilim

Used this one:
Shenlong (4SS Cache)
- The Peaceful Waters
- Wandering River Style
- Yang

Peasant
Fuhatsu
- A Memory of Honor
- Recalled Training
Yamaziko
- Recalled Training
- Smoke Bombs
Shadow Emissary
- Conflux of Dawn
Monk of Low River
Ten Thunders Brother
Thunder Archer

Thanks to everyone who helped me, especially @Eclipse for the Smoke Bombs advice. Yamaziko tanked a lot of hits, with  from Stubborn,  from Smoke Bombs,  from Honorable. WOW, really good. Fuhatsu tanked some hits too but healed many Wd thanks to Juggernaut and the Monk. Lost only one model, the brave Brother I put engaged with Aeslin (my designed Prisoner) on 4th Turn to stop her from moving away, re-engaged her later with Yamaziko. LRM + Emissary did a great job, making my hand better in 3 Turns out of 5.
My mate admitted to have built a bad list, without thinking too much about Strategy or Schemes. He did 2 from Strategy, 3 from Search the Ruins, 2 from Show of Force.
I scored 3 from Strategy, 3 from Take Prisoner and 3 from Search the Ruins.
MVP of the game was the mighty Fuhatsu, who did 10 damage on Titania with 5 shots on her, put Nekima in 3 shots down to 1 Wd (later killed by the Archer) and killed Thorn in melee. For one more point over a Samurai, I'm liking him a lot more (still don't own them). A Samurai seems a bit of a trap, especially into NVB with Wp 4.

Thanks guys, have fun, see ya the next game ahah

2 hours ago, FinalForm said:

Meme is alive
Nellie+ franc+ bishop with debt+ press+ austringer+ journalist
35ss
Ply for information, ruins, entourage
versus Misaki with bisento+ tengu+tt bro+sun quang+torikage+wokou raider

8-2
Outactivated opponent and killed Misaki and sun quang on a second turn alpha strike
Killed anything else exept for wokou rider on third turn

Why meme list?

2 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

My meta has few resurrectionists in it, but the two things I love when I play them is Bettari's Drawn To Essence ability, which is not once per turn, to literally cut off anything summoned (it's especially funny on the new undead horse things); and the same thing to a lesser degree, mercenary Taelor and her 0 action Welcome To Malifaux.... not as good, but the two of them combined is hilarious.

Kang + Taelor and every Undead/Construct in range will crumble.

4 minutes ago, anencephalous said:

Her main feature is Vent Steam. It gives a neg flip to all ranged actions in an AoE of 4", which is enough to hold a whole crew.

You walk once, then get other models to push her upfield later in the turn (she often takes Wings of Wind as well, since she doesn’t have a 0 anyhow). She can then Vent Steam twice to put a pretty crippling double neg flip on anything incoming. This is usually enough to shut down lures and normal gun-lines. If you have Outcasts with umpteen focus Trappers, or other positive  flippers, you can even triple vent steam and rely on something like Sensei Yu to shunt her up the board. 

There is obviously a few uses for the defensive bubble. You can draw a shooty crew and sit for a few turns in the bubble and make them come to you, or use it to keep together a melee crew that doesn’t want to be picked off or lured apart on its way to where ever it was headed (usually the middle of the board). Since she is TT's only real summoner (with Toshiro), you can also stall out the start of a game, while padding out your activations with a few stone dogs. With a Low River Monk or two, you can really put the pressure on the opponent to do something. Of course, if you have lots of score early schemes, or you have to split up to tag Symbols of Authority, the bubble is not useful, but in the right match, it is priceless. She can be something of a hard counter to a few masters because of this ability alone.

Oh really cool, now you made my choice even harder lol

3 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

The defensive bubble is vent steam, a (1) action to give a  to all Sh and Ca actions targeting friendly models within  of Mei Feng. If you do that 2 times(and you can take that action from a trigger she gets on an upgrade) you make any models in that  almost immune to Sh or Ca actions, so you only have to worry about Ml attacks, and your crew can't get easily pulled apart by lures/pushes/moves.

Thanks mate!

2 minutes ago, Lokibri said:

i may present the first results!

I always like having a backstory behind my models, so check out the description for every model :).

https://imgur.com/gallery/sa77M

Wonderful work!

1 minute ago, Yanlol said:

Thanks so much guys, really appreciate the info, has made things clearer for me!

This is a starting list I'm proposing based on majority models I have already :

Declared Faction: Outcasts 
Crew Name: Barrows 50ss 
Leader: Parker Barrows - Cache:(4)
   Black Market 1ss 
   Hail Of Bullets 1ss 
   Stick Up 1ss 
Doc Mitchell 3ss 
Hodgepodge Emissary 10ss 
   Conflux of Stolen Goods 0ss 
Bishop 9ss 
Johana 7ss 
Dead Outlaw 6ss 
Dead Outlaw 6ss 
Bandido 5ss 

With a SS cache of 5 ! 

Does it look reasonable? 

You can play with 4 SS easy with Parker, he will generate 1 or 2 SS every turn.
So pick Scramble for Bishop and make him a happy guy!

2 minutes ago, anencephalous said:

If you are doing Take Prisoner and Search the Ruins in Ours, you are basically eschewing scheme running for pure mayhem. I would sit in my half of the board, snipe and let them come to you. If your opponent has the same idea, it will be either lots of lures, or Changling/Trapper spam. Apart from a gun-line, I would pick heavy beaters, since you have nothing better to do for the first four turns than reduce opposing activations.

Once you have board dominance, you can score your schemes late.

The only NB crew I really wouldn’t like to face here is Dreamer, because attrition wars are very costly against real summoners.

I would choose Asami (I know the summoned don’t count, but they can still kill opposing models, and the melee focused NB getting to your scoring models), Shenlong for the superior gun-line or Mei Feng, for the defensive bubble. The terrain would be the deciding factor.

 

My opponent owns Lilith, Pandora or Titania, that's why I mentioned some choices. I own Asami and Mei too, what is the defensive bubble you're talking about? I'm new to the Rail Worker gal.

Brewmaster (5SS Cache)
- A Barkeep Never Sleeps
- Binge
- Running Tab

Apprentice Wesley
Fuhatsu
- A Memory of Honor
- Recalled Training
Katanaka Crime Boss
Mr. Tannen
Moon Shinobi
Moon Shinobi
Terracotta Warrior

Unsure on Upgrades for Brewie, here I tend to play tankier pieces (especially thanks to Mr. Tannen), 2 models my opponent can't move, a bit of mobility more for Fuhatsu thanks to Obey (TCW will swap Running Tab for A Friendly Ear). Seems a list heavier on damage, don't know.

15 minutes ago, Diceman87 said:

(First off - it warms my heart to see you call that cycling too, @ElPuto)

ElPuto got the core of the cycle down- Dropping an enemy scheme marker for Five Finger Discount in the early turns, when your opponent is too far away to drop markers from.  He also gets cards to fuel Parker’s abilities which have higher than average TNs.

Some other Emissary tech:

- if you take a wokou raider, you can drop the marker to push them thanks to Ever-changing winds.  Early game it speeds them up- mid to late game it can disengage them to get to a spot to scheme/ score a VP.

- you can Drop a marker to emergency heal your dead outlaws.  Given their relative toughness, this can really irk an opponent.

Emissary may not have the best Attack, but it does have useful triggers (discard or slow, pull to engage, or attack again). Consider those turns 3+ where you won’t have the need/luxury of cycling.

Lastly, the emissary’s destined 0 is one I haven’t used all that much, but i think is important to remember if you’re planning for end of game scheme marker schemes.

Learned it from your topic, mate, so thank you.

Loving a Wokou Raider in my list, especially if facing a lot of Ml stuff. Btw, they're probably pricy, but at 7 points they would be too strong in my opinion. What about Df6 and/or HtK?

7 minutes ago, anencephalous said:

Right, but I could get a 2/4/5 damage with positives from a 5 point Rail Worker, if that is what I feel I wanted. If you pay for his upgrade, he costs as much as Izamu (or two Rail Workers), but with less defensive tech, less damage, no self heal and one less attack. Sure, you can sometimes flurry, but it costs a card, and half the time you need to charge. It isn't like he doesn’t do some damage, it just woeful for a model of his cost.

As for the slow, for the huge cost of an opponents mid range card (or a 50ish% chance on flip) it wont land, and his trigger one is directly competing with his damaging triggers. 

If my opponent really wanted him to stop mildly slapping their models (as I say, this hasn't really been a problem yet) they can always apply something to his WP 4 to make it stop happening. Once I picked him into Collodi. Oh the fun. I alpha-struck something in turn one, and then did not get another proper activation from him the entire game. Collodi had him dancing like... well... a puppet I suppose.

As for McCabe, well, any model with nimble is better, certainly. But saying a bad model is better when buffed seems a bit curious, surely all models are better when buffed? For McCabe I tend to prefer my minions doing the heavy combat lifting. Incidentally, his damage track is less effective than a 3 point guild hound in a McCabe crew.

The Tengu has negative synergy with itself, because it only has regen as a defensive tech, and rarely lives more than one round of combat due to the low hps and stat line. Any game with a Tengu and an opposing sniper starts with the ceremonial Tengu-salute, where you pretend you only wanted to bring seven models this game anyway. People say they work better in pairs, but you actually don't get anywhere any faster dropping a marker train. Round one, one walks 5", then drops. Other teles to the marker, then walks 5", drops a marker for the other guy etc. You are dropping a chain of markers, but still only walking 10" a turn, which is not great for scheme runner. If there was a scheme that said "drop a line scheme markers", we would have a winner, but no such scheme exists. They are average speed. They can put down only one marker a round, and they die to a stiff breeze. The removal of markers would be great, if they could live more than the first turn or so of a game.

They are "decent" only because they all we have to run schemes with. On the following list of first pick scheme runners, which would you say are worse than Tengu?  Reporters, Guild Hounds, Molemen, Hoarcat Pride, Crooligans, Terror Tots, Corrupted Hounds, Void Wretch or Piglet?

Izamu has got weaker and weaker, there is no doubt about it. But at least he has a clear role, that the opponent must manage carefully. If they are lucky enough to have good armour pen, then that can kill the model. If not, they have to position carefully, or suffer scads of damage, and expect to have multiple models tied up for several rounds. Sure he can be paralysed, pushed away etc., he isn't broken, but he is a clear and present danger any time he is on the table.

Conversely, Fuhatsu is frequently a non-event. He struggles to get to where he needs to be in the most mobile faction in the game. Once there, he is usually hitting twice a turn for two, or throwing the dice... and usually hitting twice for two damage anyway. I have used recalled training on him and got zero hits in that turn. His new melee upgrade means he isn’t totally useless when engaged, but 2/4/6 is not a hugely exciting track.

I have played him a fair bit - he is in my 'nice to new players' model set. And I have even tried him against stiffer competition in a Mei Feng bubble, but I have never felt I got my points worth from him. If I want that type of model, I tend to choose Lazarus or Envy.

Laughing out loud for the mental image of "ceremonial salute" ahahahah

Probably, you weren't lucky mate, btw, but this happens to everyone. Sh6 is good, the damage track is good, Positive flip to hit, add Focus, Recalled Training or Swill and you're gonna hit moderate more times than not. He's not exactly mobile, but the starting point was he can't tank, which I find incorrect, 'cause there are models supposed to be tanky that in the same situations tank less (no Armour like Crime Bosses, no HtW like Izamu, no Relentless, opponent able to move them around). Again, with Laugh Off he will be pretty good, imo. If you want to join me in "Tonight's game", we can discuss more!

2 minutes ago, Eclipse said:

Archers are better now with the cost reduction, well suited for tables with a lot of terrain to hide behind or if you expect a lot of melee engagements (like vs NB). If you are taking Yamaziko why not put Blot Out the Sky on her instead of Recalled? This way you can park the archer and have him blast EoT while Yama is (0) braced. The archer can hide well behind Fuhatsu's big bum pretty well, too. Alternatively, if you want to have a solid upgrade on Yamaziko how about Smoke Grenades? This will protect her from range, making her impervious to Lures and Tangle Shadows and the like, not to mention something of a niche semi-counter to a Pandora as well. You can also drop the smoke bombs in a pinch, denying vision and board control in a key moment.
As an alternative to the archer, if there is a long clearing on the table, you might want to give Shenlong 1SS less in cache to bring in a Sniper.

Isn't a bit too short playing with 3 SS? I'm always worried lol 
Usually we play a table made from 9 12"x12" quarters, full of heights and stairs. So it will be pretty full of terrain that gives cover or LoS blocking.

Nice suggestions tho.

3 hours ago, Yanlol said:

Thanks guys 😊 alot of that makes sense, but do you mind going into a bit more detail for the hodgepodge emissary? 

He can do a thing called "cycling":

1Ap - attach Trinket. Thanks to Conflux, you'll draw a card.

0Ap on Conflux - take off the Trinket, draw a card, enemy Scheme (useful for a second SS thanks to Parker's abilities).

1Ap - Reattach the Trinket. Another card.

If needed, second 0Ap (Instinctual), discard a card, push, Scheme.

7 hours ago, InvokeChaos said:

I think the assessment is overall solid.  Though if Show of Force wasn't appealing for moving to the center, I find it interesting you picked a scheme that requires you to be near the center. I do think search is a solid take in ours, fairly easy to straddle the lines, so to speak, especially for 10T

Take prisoner is made for 10T in my opinion, so I think you're definitely right for going towards that. Guarded treasure is another 10T favorite, and recover evidence can be surprising solid depending on crew comps. 

Brewie doesn't need to be engaged at all. I think bubble brewie is cool if you can get it off in 10T, but he works much better as a swill bot to make our already solid choices more capable.

As to your opponent's choices, I would say Lilith and Pandora are a more likely pick than Titania.  There's not a lot of scheme marker shenanigans here, and while she's not a bad pick, Ours actually encourages a bit more scrumming, which leads me more to the Lilith category. All three are solid choices though, so good mindset there.

Crime Bosses are money against neverborn.  Dopple/changelings with Lilitu is a thing and beckoners are actually decent picks now. And of course if you're looking at the autumn knights... there ya go. Anna is solid tech too, but I feel NVB doesn't ride the incorp train to heavily, and we have some other models with solid casts that might fill her role, but she's never really a bad take. 

So long story short, yes, I think you're looking at things the right way overall. My only possible counter to your line of thinking is that I find that Mei Fang either wants to strike out and be a nuisance or bubble up, and I'm not sure I would take her into ours because of that. If I really want to reach out and touch someone, I feel Misaki is a stronger play into nvb because she can be WP8 with servant and they have some nasty casts. She's not tied to her crew so you can play the ours game with the crew, and just mess with your opponent with a harrier Misaki who laughs at lures or places or pushes. And I wouldn't really play a bubble up list in ours.  Even a Vent Steam one. Shen is a great pick though and Brewie is always solid. 

Show of Force is out of my choices because of that, as I said.
For Take Prisoner and Search the Ruins, I've thought to something like this:

Shenlong (4SS Cache)
- Wandering River Style
- Yang

Peasant
Fuhatsu
- A Memory of Honor
- Recalled Training
Yamaziko
- Recalled Training
Shadow Emissary
- Conflux of Dawn
Ten Thunders Brother
Ten Thunders Brother
Thunder Archer

A bit short of SS in my opinion, the Archer can go out for another choice.
I will try to build a list for Brewie, and then compare with this one.

10 hours ago, anencephalous said:

Fuhatsu – As armour penetration becomes commonplace, this model has gone from bad to worse. Sure, Laugh Off instead of Braced would be a good start, but the whole model is rubbish, really. I would change the 2 point attack so it is slightly less strong, but can be cheated. Random results are for Gremlins.

Forgot to say this about Fuhatsu: if armour pen is common now and he's crap because of that, what do you think about Izamu? He's even worse, 1 more Wd but no HtW to make up for it. And Izamu is a beatstick who needs to be in the thick of it, Fuhatsu can kill stuff from range, putting relative safeness between him and the opponents. 

14 minutes ago, anencephalous said:

Where I agree and disagree:

Brewmaster – at least he has a clear role now, as our anti-Take One for the Team leader. I think the change he needs is for his drinking bubble to last until his next activation, not till the end of the turn.

Ama No Zako – Low ML is fine, it is the suits that are killer. Remove them, or add a “discard to add suit till end of turn” style ability. She eats so many soulstones just to get her kit rolling, and her other melee attack is so, so bad. I must have played her in 20 games, and I have never once seen a use for it. Would you like do significant set up, just to spend a soulstone for the chance that your opponent discards two cards or two soulstones? When you could just try a 3/5/7 damage track? Well, no, obviously no.

Sidir – I agree is underpowered although more so in Guild, where people are shooting for much more damage all over the park. At least in TT he can match damage with our other shooters (sigh). He needs his defensive and offensive triggers inbuilt and some defensive tech, probably hard to kill.

Guild Pathfinder – Say what now? This is already a strong, arguably OP unit. A six point summoner, that has from the shadows and AoE damage? I have no idea what more you could ask for. When you put it into play you get free cake? Seriously, I love this model, but it is really hard to say it needs a buff. It has single handedly won me many a game. If you took the suit off the summon, I would spam three or four a game. Lol, so many traps there would be.

MotHR – Even at five soulstones it is terrible. I occasionally take one when ToftT is in the pool, but it never works how you want it to. Min damage 2 is the obvious fix. If I am going for an offensive, glass cannon cheap minion, the least it can do is base damage.

Tengu – Arguably the worst scheme runners in the game, with negative synergy written all over their card. Defence six would make them playable. Or any real defensive tech, really. Or make them a three cost model.

Thunder Archer – Needs more defence, a way to push out of melee or both.

Wastrel – Awesome with McCabe, good with Lynch and Shenlong, and okay with everyone else, this really is a decent model for the points. It is just rare to get a swiss army knife model at 4 points. If it needed a buff, and it doesn’t, it would be walk 5.

 

My additions:

Fuhatsu – As armour penetration becomes commonplace, this model has gone from bad to worse. Sure, Laugh Off instead of Braced would be a good start, but the whole model is rubbish, really. I would change the 2 point attack so it is slightly less strong, but can be cheated. Random results are for Gremlins.

Ototo – This model is just so bad. In all ways inferior to Izamu at around the same cost. He brings nothing unique to the team. Every time I play him, he is ignored by my opponent, does not go below six wounds and thus puts out as much damage as your average five point model. I have only played this model half a dozen times, but I have never, ever seen him go to six wounds or lower. Not once. Terrible stat line, sad damage, weak front of card. He needs a major overhaul really, but at the very least bake a ram into his basic attack to make his damage slightly less comical.

Wandering River Monk – With the changes to 2018, seven point minions running around the backline are a thing of the past. With a 6 point Yamaziko now available, these guys are pretty much obsolete. Even with a cost drop I could not see using them at six points. Perhaps an inbuilt defensive trigger would make them interesting.

Torakage – No one plays them. They lack the mobility or survivability to do what they need to do. Again, compared to Yamaziko they are a non-model. The easy fix is drop the cost to 5.

How's Brewie anti-TOftT?
Pathfinder is surely good, probably you're right about the suit.
Tengu at 3 will be powerful, and 10T has nothing as a Faction to build a list on cheap activations.
Fuhatsu is ok in my opinion, probably Laugh Off is enough.

Can't talk for the rest of your additions, never played them, but Ototo and Torakage are infamous for their clear problems.

Tonight's game vs Neverborn:

Ours

- Guarded Treasure

- Show of Force

- Search The Ruins

- Take Prisoner

- Recover Evidence

Show of Force, in my head, goes against Ours: the models carrying Upgrades (usually then the most expensive in the list) have to be within 6" of the Center, not counting for the Strategy. So I'm headed towards Take Prisoner and Search the Ruins.

Shen, Brewie or Mei are my mates. Shen and Brewie can move stuff around, denying points. Correctly, you will say that Brewie wants to be engaged while my opponent can run around thanks to the Strategy, but my opponent will play for sure Titania (prolly Lilith or Pandora), so two up to three Masters that wants to play near my stuff, keeping me in their bubbles too. Brewie, then, is not a bad choice. The roster is made of tanky Masters (not the tankiests in the game, but not shabby or squishy at all), able to play into Take Prisoner and to camp into Ours without too much worrying (except for an angry Nekima). Brewie can control her thanks to Swill, Mei can jump around, Shen is defensively really strong. Search the Ruins is not that difficult to score, we've plenty of choices (Shen can even move markers with Wandering River Style).

Thinking about Crime Bosses or Fuhatsu to counter some push effects (alike Rougarou's), Anna Lovelace for eventual place effects and Ca vs Incorporeal, don't know what else.

Am I focusing on the game in the right way?

27 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

I approach Symbols of Authority games much like Stake a Claim. Lots of AP needed for moving and interacting to get strategy points. I've seen plenty of people botch that in their first SoA game.

Always nice to hear how people play their games.

Will write a short report then

5 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I played McMoourning in guild without guild models today.  

Rattler, Myranda, Cojo, Necromancy, Sebastian, Chihuahua, and a nurse. It was a really weird game of ply against Yan Lo. 

 

I might go with Boars for the deployment and eat your fill ability but Waldgeists are always solid in my experience and have the beast tag weirdly enough. In one of the more forgiving deployment types I think geists will outshine boars since you have greater control over their ap and huge engagements. Since McMourning can push and give him a marker with his (0) you will have decent mobility and ignoring armour is nice if you are spamming shots. This is more along the lines of silly than an attempt to win a tournament though.

Ok, my bad. Was trying to find a Minion both Beast and Swampfiend, but here they are! Waldgeists seem pretty good, you're right!

@Ludvig oh yeaaah mateeee

What do we got? Spawn Mama and Boars maybe?

Well, he's surely good as a shooting piece, don't know if it's worth 12/13 SS right now, but it can work. Yet to try McM with Beasts, so literally, it's just Theory-faux.

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

Start a new topic on that! I have been considering both swamp Lucius and Doc Swampmourning.

TO THE TOPIC ROOM!

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

Yeah, I'm not sure what to do about them. They have some decent synergy with McCabe and the Emissary, but that's it. At 5ss they're good scheme runner hunters though. Can't give them a 2" engage because that just gives them anti-synergy with their wander the earth and flurry charge. Upping the damage spread by 1 might be too much for 5ss, but not enough for 6ss. The best route to go I think would to give them something else that works off of burning. Maybe a 0 action that models that begin within like 4 gain Burning +1.

Cg 7 maybe?

26 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

How much more durable do you want a 13 wd Df 5-7 with easy access to healing?

You're probably right, I can remove it from the list