Aegnor

Hi. The new rule errata say that :

Quote

. On the turn they are Summoned, Summoned models cannot take the Interact Action and are ignored for friendly Schemes and Strategies

I'm not a native english speaker and i'm confused by the coma and AND placement. Does the "are ignored for friendly schemes and strategies" apply only the turn they are summoned or for the whole game?

Same question for the interact with strategy markers from GG2.

Thank in advance.

On 6/29/2019 at 6:44 AM, Cheros said:

Soulstone preventing is now reducing, not preventing anymore. This makes some masters ridiculous easy to kill and some beater ridiculous OP. 

Thanks wyrd... 

does that make a difference?

I must be missing something since in my head that's exactly the same since it"s specified that you can reduce to 0 with ss

59 minutes ago, Zebo said:

What I wouldn't like is to see a Pigapult + Stuffed Piglets in every Gremlin crew. 

I think this is why stuffed piglets are not versatile yet.

The keyword taxe is to avoid "Good Stuff" generic list and encourage keyword list. I love that in m3e and i totaly agree that no model should be in every list.

This taxe doesn't work for stuffed piglets IMO because they are too cheap and you need multiple ones. You want to take whiskey golem, let's say, out of keyword : it's around 10% cost increase + less synergy (in general) so that's already some restriction but it's ok. Now for 1 stuffed piglet it's +50% cost increase. Imagine you would need to pay 12-15ss for a whisky golem? 

Maybe we can have some "packs". Like 2 stuffed piglets for 4ss. This way hiring these 2 would cost 5ss out of keyword or even 3 for 6(+1)ss. You could even limit this pack to 1. For example only 1 pack of 2. So the cost for hiring would be : 1 stuffed 2(+1)ss. 2 stuffed 4(+1)ss with the pack, 3 stuffed 4(+1)ss with pack +2(+1)ss so 6(+2) overall, 4stuffed for 4(+1) + 2*2(+1) (pack+2 since you only have one pack) so 8(+3)ss. and so on.

A model i find overcosted in most crew is the stuffed piglets.

They are very good in a wong crew at 2ss and glowy synergy.

However at 3ss and no synergy they feel weak. Especially compared to bayou gremlins which at least are versatiles.

The problem here is the +1 non keyword taxe. +1ss on a 2ss model is wayyyyyy too much. Especially when you wanna hire many of them. Pigapult+5 stuffed(so you get 6 in the end) is 5ss more in a non wong crew, that's huge. In m2e the 2ss cost was a problem because of activation control but it isn't a thing anymore so.

What do you guys think on this? IMO stuffed piglets should be versatiles. I'm a big lover of pigapult+stuffed piglets that i bought for my ulix/somer crews back in the day and now i feel like i must buy wong if i want to see them in play again. (and don't start me on the obvious fact that they should have the pig keyword...)

I only have collodi and lynch so i'm a bit worried for my future with the neverborn. Just need to wait more informations on illuminated/graves/tannen/etc (keyword? nvb or 10t or both?) and dolls (which master to play them with?).

Otherwise the changes seems interesting and i'm excited for my ulix crew. (growing pigs and stampede sounds very nice).

I hope Collodi and the others are just 'dead man's hand' because of lore reason and not for 'balance' reason. If they don't have balance issue many TOs may allow them anyway. I play almost only with my friends so i would also like to have balanced games. For casual play people won't care if your master is officialy a 'dead man'.

Anyway i share the feeling. I only have 3 masters yet : collodi, lynch and ulix. So with the 3rd edition i won't be a nerverborn player at all anymore 'officially', neither a gremlin one with the name change^^'.

30 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

To me it seems clear that the stat one can't boost defence but the duel one can boost a duel that uses df.

I understand your logic.

I have some trouble with all the wording in this game that are not very consistent imho. This difference between stats modifier and stat duel total modifier is kinda weird. Like hannah's nether flux/counterspell that erase built in suits or bonus in the form of +suit to X stat (like misaki's risky ventures +crows to Ml) but no +suit to duel bonus like the riders' buff or somer's do it like dis (if i'm right).

31 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

It is not. It is added to all duel totals, not to the defense stat of the model.

What if you had something like 'this models adds 1 to all his stats' or 'this models adds 1 to all his duel totals'. Would you have df 4 or 5 with the first one? Would you add 1 to your df duels with the second?

A faq on what is exactly a bonus would be nice.

Appetizing : this model's Df is reduced to 4, ignore all bonuses to this model's Df.

Do it like Dis! : all friendly pig and gremlin models within 8" add the suit of the discarded card to all duel totals.

So the question is : is the added suit a bonus to df or not?

Are +suit considered a bonus to defense and canceled by the appetizing condition?

I assume that things like "this models get +suit to its defense" would definitely be countered but not sure for generic +suit like somer "do it like this".

What we do in my group is 'blind' list building.

We draw schemes and strats. Then each player make 2 lists, both 25ss, one lead by a master and the other by an henchman. Only after you roll for the teams and each team choose which of its player will play the master and the henchman. For example we roll teams to be A-C and B-D. Then A will play his master list and C his henchman one, or A play his henchman and C his master.

This way you avoid too silly combos.

The other way around is too make it very clear to everyone that you can do any mix so the goal is to find the most broken synergies.

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Malifaux is a bit in limbo. Sometimes it is very specific and sometimes not depending on if it is a defined keyword term or not. Keywords are supposed to be written with a capital letter to denote their keyword status but that isn't done consistently either. You can see that Action is written with a capital A in Barbaros' ability but not target 

Target is a keyword so uses the more specific way meaning it has to say target. I believe attack actions have a general rule that they always target a model as per the base rules but double check that.

Killed is also a specific keyword so only when killed, never sacrificed.

In the main rules book they indeed say that attack actions are against 'target model' so you can say attack actions always target.

So attacks always target and other things only target if 'target' is written somewhere. i then guess triggers (like bloody command's deal with him) also targets only if 'target' is written.

Very mtg like then.

I'm pretty sure to have the answer but i want confirmation.

How interact abilities like 'challenge' (barbaros, mancha roja) or 'hostile environment'(sparks) with abilities/attack that doesn't have the exact 'target' wording. For example 'feed the piggies : up to 4 friendly gremlins/pigs can make a 1/2/3 healing flip' or scion of the void's hollowing : 'select a friendly buried' or any other abilities with words like select,choose or no specific word at all. My mtg background tells me to be very literal and say that if it doesn't say target then you can do it but i don't know if malifaux is as 'wording specific' as Mtg.

Same kind of question for 'killed'. Especially for poorly handled explosifs. It say 'do this if model is killed' so i guess it shouldn't work if you sacrifice. But here comes pere ravage specifically saying 'if this model is killed (not sacrificed)' that gives me a little doubt. I think that it is just a reminder but i wanna be 100% sure.

Grootslang 'lair to lair' action is nice to copy with Hanna for insane mobility

56 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Jafar made a topic about Gluttony and I want to ask similar question about our Effigy - anyone used it? In what purpose? To me it is a 'dead' model but maybe I miss something.

I sometimes use it with my collodi....

The master buff won't heal you that much and slop hauler is only 1ss more. The only list i would see the effigy played is in a mah list with emissary (double ram chores) to get some use of her ml attack damage track.

2 month ago i may have argued that 4ss htk armor minion is nice but survivors are here now.

31 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

I honestly think that due to large model availability we are running into problematic combos, usually its very "master thematic" models being used in other crews.

I know combo's are all good an nice but do we really need to give viks/misaki 4 abom -> to deso engine and 4 cards? It is starting to feel like rat engine activation control in a non-hemlin list.

 

Also do all outcast masters need access to void wretches? With cheap desperate mercs that are now a faction staple we do not need some of the more "wankier" combos out there.

At this point its starting to feel we need to restrict certain theme models to master only hiring in order to prevent current and future abuse.

200% agree. We need more keyword or like restrictions. Lot of stuff Can just get out of control with no limitations. 

You know the saying :

'gremlins and Guild are born ennemies, like gremlins and neverborn or gremlins and ressers or gremlins and other gremlins. Damn gremlins they ruined the bayou !'

3 hours ago, Euclid said:

I've played one game with Hinamatsu so far.... she got stuck fighting Ashes and Dust so that immunity to conditions didn't work too well for her .  I can definitely see the potential and really want to get some more table time with her.

I have never really gotten Coryphee to do anything much for me in Arcanists, does the passing out of effigy buffs make that much of a difference with them in Collodi?

I only take coryphee with vasilisa+ a friend to talk to for some schemes (deliver a message back in the days for example). Buff them is not so usefull but negative flip on ennemy model can be very powerfull for your other beaters.

Hinamatsu with arcane effigy buff to deal lot of damages or brutal buff to heal can be very strong when you can attack 5 times in one turn. If you add coryphee you now have + flip against a - flip ennemy model so almost guaranted hits.

I totaly agree with @I'm a Teapot!. tanuki+pigapult is not so broken and is far from the top in the list of 'need to be nerfed asap' things.

Public demo+set up have 13.5% probability to show up in a game so 2 games every 15. (if my maths are correct). Now if each factions are equally played you will face gremlins 1 on 7 games. So you will face gremlins when these two schemes are in the pool once every 52 games. Lets ignore the fact that some strat/scheme pools can make this trick a lot of free vp for your opponent (supply wagons, take prisoners for example).

So once every 52 games, where you know this may happen while listbuilding. you then saw oponnent crew which is brewie + half ss total for the tricks. So you are now 99% sure the trick is happening. If then you don't manage to counter it or score more vp maybe you deserve to lose.

People are too vocal when gremlins are involved and this is again one sad example. How many people played this trick or against it? How many played or played against other faction 'exploits' and didn't complain about it?

If every 'working' gremlin trick is seen as an exploit how are we supposed to play them fair?

If your read this forum  you get the impression that 90% of gremlins models are bad and the last 10% is so broken that you gremlins are still op. It is very annoying as the player to have this feeling that you almost 'need' to play glowy, iron skeeter, zipp if you wanna win but knowing that people will be frustrated if you beat them like this. 

I know you can win without playing these models. I never take them and i'm doing fine in my games. But every time you lose while playing 'fair' when your opponent is not (ie using some of his faction 'exploits' or 'too good' models) its hard to not thing your factions is too weak : no one is arguing/saying that your opponent models are exploits/op so your models have to be weak right?

If everyone's knowledge/memory about malifaux was wiped rigth now i wonder what the meta will be like. Very different from today i think. Just try to have a new look and try 'non competitive' list with your mates and you can have very fun games. My last game i played pigapult without ammo, survivors, bushwahckers and not a single slop hauler. I had a very fun time and didn't lost a single model surprinsingly.

Yes no ammo. I wanted to try just rocks and launch. I didn't feel taking slop hauler with only bushs because they don't have reckless and no Armor htw htk so if they get hit they juste die usually. I'm also testing survivors in m'y recent games and couldnt have my game plan + survivors + hauler.

4 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

After all the gremlin outcry about the pigapult being useless and them being screwed over in all the latest errata I'm not sure they'll change it but who knows. I wouldn't risk it but I'm thankfully not a game designer. When people argue that the pigapult is useless they seem to concentrate on the damage aspect being nerfed by stuffed piglets and forget the positioning. If the pigapult is so bad it isn't worth taking, why is this use a problem? Flying corn husk piglets are another really annoying thing when you are trying to do marker schemes against gremlins and launching a few models to deny interference as your very last activation each turn is also super strong. I guess I'm just confused by the pigapult being too bad to use and at the same time too op for the game.

 

This is the big paradox of the pigapult as it is now. Launch can be an extremely powerfull ability for scheming but at the same time the pigapult shooting capacity is now pretty bad for its cost. Personaly i love to use the pigapult for shooting but i'm not a big fan of launch. I still use it because it feels just very easy in some schemes pools and i have the model which is one of my favorite (maybe THE favorite) of my collection. In my last game i used if for symbols (BBB reactivating bayous), public demo and undercover entourage (launch trixie last turn).

I think the designers have to chose what is the role of the pigapult. It can't be a shooting platform and a launching platform. One aspect will always be bad otherwise the pigapult would be just too powerfull.

I would gladly see launch removed/reworked to have my shooting pigapult back.

Or my favorite idea : make the pigapult actualy launching models, like the ulix pig slingshot. 

Had another game this weekend against a rocket riding dinosaur (maybe some of you will recognize).

The poo was :

standart deploy

public execution (2-0 for me when we stopped)

eliminate leadership (my opponent 0)

undercover entourage (me on trixie 3 , my opponent on dreamer 3)

set up

show of force

public demonstration (me on bushs 3)

I had : mah + lead lined apron + manifest destiny + liquid bravery

little las (+pits)

trixie + DC + gun

3 bush

2 survivor

pigapult

my opponent had : dreamer + wings + growing up + aether connection

serena bowman

3 teddy + warped reality

My original plan was to sit down shooting things. At some point launch my 3 bushwhacker to score 3 vp from public demo. Then next turn push them back with 'get of my land' then again with reckless trixie (taking init with ill omen) to have my paralysed little guys 14" back into safety (so 14-18" away from the ennemy). And at the end of the last turn send trixie with the pult to score another 3vp.

Obvisouly when i saw my opponent list i knew i had to change my plan. I fortunatly won deploy and made him deploy first. I then deployed my crew as far as i could from the teddies but still at shooting range. The map had a lot of dense terrain but not so much blocking so i had a pretty good firing lane (ignoring cover is very nice).

First turn i went first and my first activation was the pigapult. The last 2 (maybe 3) i played it against the rocket riding dinosaur he killed it first turn before it did anything (or even activated sometimes) with viks or tara propelled bishop. So it was out for revenge. It hit one teddy three time, with one shot flipping red joker for damages which killed the fluffy bear. My opponent activated dreamer to come support. Then i activated trixie, reckless, and lured the other two teddies away (slowing one).

At this point my opponent knew it would be suicide to try to come straight back at me and we started a positioning war. for like 3 turns it was just him summoning daydreams, pushing and moving his crew around trying to be safe from my shoots and have a possible charge. I did the same, moved/pushed my guys around, took some shots with bush/pigapult (draining some ss when i could shoot dreamer, doing some damages on teddies that were healed just after (5wd regen with dreamer is a lot)). I managed to stay far enough away. I made a pretty good hand meanwhile (and keeping both jokers in hand to avoid surprises on horror duel)

Ultimatly my opponent had to go in at some point and he did. Moving all his crew forward a big time. His two teddies very near from me.

But i had activation control so i was able to strike first. I wounded a teddy with a bush shots, then a survivor took also 2 shots. And then mah charged it. Another dead fluffy bear.

Unfortunatly i lost init and the last teddy charged mah. But with my hand, armor, ss and decent luck at the flips she only lost 2wds. Then it was her time and she killed the last bear with ease, with even 1ap left and her 0 to go into safety.

We then called it since my opponent had no way to come back at the score. No reason to believe i would'nt score my 3+3vps from my scheme (bush and trixie being unharmed, trixie already in the ennemy deploy zone, pigapult alive and well). My opponent would surely have score 3 from undercover on dreamer (i had no way to chase him and no reason to take the risk). I had ss left so killing mah would have been very hard for him. I had also 2vp from strat already.

So the final result would have been something like (8-9-10) to (3-4-5).

I was confident as i know how good/bad is teddy since i play him in neverborn (often summoned though) but i was still nervous not to do any positioning mistake. Liquid bravery ws very nice and i did it almost everyturn to have bushs at wp 8 so no problems from terrifying. (I expected pandora so this i why i took this upgrade).

Pretty fun game anyway. 

The tanuki trick requires 2 specific schemes and taking brewie. It's only 8+3*15=23ss but you need to outactivate your opponent so some ss will likely go for outactivations (bayous for example). Your tanukis are very likely to die really fast after that so you can't use them for anything else. In the rare pools i saw public demo + set up i felt too risky to do the trick because i had the feeling my opponent could too easily score more vp with half my crew (or more) doing nothing in term of firghting. Also if this really become popular you can see it coming when you know before making your list that your opponent is gremlins (have brewie) and the 2 schemes are in the pool, you can then take some counter.

I agree that public demo may be too easy for some crews but even for theses crews it is still risky, just one of your guy dead too soon and 1vp is lost forever. With collodi or the pigapult (that i both play) it felt like 3 sure vp but i was still a little nervous, my guys can die to soon, maybe they will die instantly after scoring and i would be too far behind in fighting power. For example one of my last game i took it with bushwackers and pigapult in public execution. I wanted to send them end of turn 5 and thats it. But if the game didn't end i may have given free strat vp to my opponent.

I would love to see statistic on schemes some day like what are the most pick, which one score more on average and so on just to see which one are too good (or weak).

My main argument to keep public demo though is the crew building. As a collodi/gremlin (mainly ulix) player i always took a lot of minions but in gg2018 minions are very weaker in scheming capacity. Guarded treasure is now non minion for example and globaly more resilient models are needed (at least it's a general saying i see on this forum). It is good that at least one scheme 'rewards' you for playing minion and 'punish' henchman/enforcer heavy crews.

14 hours ago, PositronMike said:

You can score schemes turn one as long as they don't have a caveat like any turn after the first. Off the top if my head you can score set up, public demo, vendetta and dig their graves turn one. Can't remember any others at the moment. 

Assassinate the leadership also. You won't have the 3rd vp before the end of the game but still. Recover evidence is doable turn1, very very hard but on paper you can.

20 hours ago, Ludvig said:

That tanuki plan. Pure evil! thr pigapult could cause massive damage to your own models and ther are som many triggers that hurt yourself or models with reckless that it should be doable to kill off your own models. You'll have some point where you are vulnerable to an enemy with some sort of control like nurses so it migvt not be a given.

Yeah i love it too. Still figuring how to get maximum activations before launching the tanukis to be sure it will work.

In this specific pool however i don't think it will work. The problem being assassinate and undercover entourage. I can deny set up and public demo. Some list may not do/take show of force so this one is a fair risk. But my opponent can take the last 2 and score 6vp since i can't deny them. If i could take zipp with tanukis/pigapult then ok, i just have to bury zipp then kill the bayou and my opponnent can only score 1vp unless he can bury target model but it's very rare. Maybe one of you know a way to remove brewie from the table without giving the 3vp? 

9 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

One of the main weaknesses of a 3" engagement is that it's super easy to block yourself from being able to do nice things. On the rare occasion I need Ulix to interact, his 4" engagement range prevents it :c

Never had the problem with my ulix but true. I always take corn husk so he almost never need to interact to be fair.