Daniel Walker

15 minutes ago, Adran said:

I have tried a few Cadmus games, and I would probably sum then up as a machine. It runs really efficiently until something goes wrong. And I think the crucial piece for the machine is Meredith. If you can remove Meredith then you have removed almost all the healing, and you have removed the ability to get husks. That makes a huge difference to facing them. And Meredith needs to be within 3" of several models to really get her healing going, so she can't be too far from the fight. 

Cadmus certainly has the ability to make that hard, with Flush with Cash and take the hit on the emissary, but from the few games I've played, this is where you need to target them to beat them. 

Of course the trick is how you do this, and there isn't an easy answer to that, because that depends a lot on how the Cadmus player plays. I had good success the other night with Parker, Mad dog and Pride. Remove the ability to cheat every flip, and have a high damage shooting model with blasts and you can make quite a mess of the clumps. (Mad dog also caused Nexus turns to be almost exclusively web generation to feed eyes and ears because he was able to remove any stored up). 

Its enough to make me think Cadmus is beatable. Its still really strong, but this is where I think you need to try and disrupt what I've read and seen about the Cadmus playstyle. (Plaag may play them very differently I don't know, I can't watch his videos. I certainly don't get enough use out of Mr Nggatoro to make him a regular pick). 

Oh, I’ve played against Parker with Cadmus. And he killed Emissary, it’s really possible) But his every model shoot into him and he died. At the end of turn three)

Also there is one very good model in Cadmus that fits into Ivan easily. Archivist is broken as hell and suits well in his lists if you don't like Rook 

3 hours ago, Whut said:

Hopefuls are one stone less, let you cycle a card, can do a little healing, remove conditions, have a 14" gun, are most importantly H2K, can become Brocken or Daeva, and can pass free focus to Ivan when he scores a kill, but come with a lot of anti-synergies. Their heal and condition removal requires removing all conditions, which takes away Focus and Distracted. They're slow, so might have trouble keeping close to Ivan always. If transforming into Brocken/Daeva not near enemies they're sluggish so Operative/Nocturne might be more common. And they don't have UAffairs, so they can't shoot softened targets if Ivan's summons are engaged with them (the most common location of softened targets) and Gibson has to be careful with his Firefly (although they can remove their own Distracted if they don't have Focused). Also, taking Ivan w/ FlushWCash, Effigy w/ FateUpgrade, and 1-2 Prospects makes me feel like I'm building a house of cards, or investing my life savings into Bitcoin.

In our meta if you see model that cost 5 or less you never take it unless it's a combo piece, because most player use very impactfull beaters that can one-shot such minion easily. And in my opinion, Prospects may be not very bad, but Nocturnes are horrible and I strongly recommend not to summon them ever, unless they can bring you VP just after summoning.

22 minutes ago, Adran said:

I expect everyone probably does. That was why I only talked about getting the second crow, I assumed that everyone managed to gain at least 1 positive to get the first crow. 

Although I do also think that working on ways to try and deny that positive is a valid approach, so Serene Countenance, removal of His distracted, and removal of the Shadow markers can all be ways to slow him down, depending on exactly how he is getting them. If his first action has to be Black soulstone to get a shadow marker out for the concealed, then you've already cut him down to 2 attempts, and if he is relying on his own distracted condition, then each failed attempt is using up that condition. That might not matter much if you have a good way to re distract him, but its still a resource. 

 

(And thanks to Rufus for the reminder, but I'm fairly sure that Daniel, Myself and Scoffer are playing it the right way, so the discussion points are valid)

one funny tech to get shadow is just to use  drop marker and then place on it)

3 hours ago, Adran said:

Thats my point, just from the other side, I think we are agreeing in reality. 

Ivan's attack drains resources if you want to deny the summons, but it also potentially drains resources to happen. Yes, if you have a 13 in hand and are wanting to attack a WP 6 or lower model then you will get your summons (baring a joker). If you are only attacking a wp 5 model then you probably only need a 12 but you can't get brocken then. 

If Ivan has spent a stone on the attack and reduced his to gain a crow, then I expect him to want to try and summon. If I can cheat my highest card and win that duel, then I have cost him resources for little effect. If he hasn't spent the stone, then I expect him to have a decent in hand, and I make a different set of choices if I am cheating first. I may well not use my best card, but rather a decent moderate, and just hope that the in hand isn't that high, or I may just accept that this turn its probably not worth trying to deny it, because I can't force the resource loss. 

I think a turn in which Ivan fails to summon is probably a bad turn for Ivan. As such I'm prepared to spend my resources on that much more than I might be to try and stop Kirai summoning (because that's not in my control as an opponent) for example. Where as I can try and control Ivans summoning 2 ways. I can try and deny him those positive flips (possibly hard, but if I have ways to remove destructible terrain or enemy conditions I have a chance) as well as try and win the duels that matter. 

EDIT - I guess some of it comes down to the Ivan player and how low a number do they feel safe with. If they are only prepared to spend the stone if they have a 13 vs a wp 6 model, then yes, you aren't realistically going to deny them the summons. but if they will do it for 11s and 12s as well, then you can try and deny it. 

 

I almost always spend on , because the first trigger is also very good

29 minutes ago, Rufess said:

Just to ensure everyone is on the same page, Ivan can only transfer a single  to  in every attack. So he always needs a stone or a suited card for the 2nd  for the summoning trigger.

Another add, not quite relating though, is that Ivan cannot summon from a killed target. So the health is also a condition when choosing target while summoning.

This obviously follows from the rules written in the rollbook and on the card)

2 hours ago, Adran said:

 

I don't think that was the assumption. More likely you have equal cards in hand, and equal flips and aren't in Gibsons Aura.  And whilst that isn't really realistic, it at least gives a an idea of a likely outcome

Ivan Still has to commit resources to each attempt to get 2 .  Granted its likely that he can get 1 for free from  flip being replaced, but unless you have that high Crow in hand you are risking a soulstone each time, or hoping that your mid crow is enough to win after cheating.

I expect Ivan to be able to summon most turns, and its fairly likely he will be able to get a Brocken if he really wants, but unless he is holding the 13or the red joker, it is likely to be costing him resources every turn. 

The rest of the discussion appears to be cross talking. If you only had 1 model on the table, the Brocken might be better than Ikiryu, but a lot of the power of Ikiryu as a summon is the ability for it to not count as your summon.  

I expect to see strong showings from new masters for a few months because it is always easier to learn how to use them than it is to learn how to face them. 

As I found, Ivan’s crew, as I play him, don’t really need resources. I start with 7 stones and can afford to spend 4-5 on  if I really need them, but in tuned set up Ivan always has a least  and on very flip he needs to summon

There are one funny thing in playing Ivan against Kriai and Ikiriyo. You don’t need to summon specters, you just need to summon Daeva, copy Ikiriyo’s action and kill everything)

On 12/8/2020 at 11:09 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Anna, Manos, and Vincent (one shots summons) are all common tech picks in Ressers. So that might just be a bad matchup and the solution might be to not bring summoner Ivan against Ressers (or at least, bring a flexible list if you bring him at all).

Would be funny to take an Ivan list where they take Vincent and Anna, and then you put zero emphasis on summoning 😜

Yesterday played Ivan vs Yan Lo. Anna is useless against Ivan if you have at least one model on 40mm. I just wreck Yan Lo on turn 3 and killed everything on the table without any casualties. And “you can’t heal” from specter destroys regen/demises healing abilities which are only way for ressers to stay alive

Once upon a time there was a tournament in cold russian town named Ulyanovsk (really, google where it is 😁). I came here with two full keywords (Cadmus and Dua/Umbra) and some versatile models. Before each game, I tossed a coin in order to choose a master, because, to my taste, both masters were equally strong in all the schemes presented. I played five games and ended up in first place with 4 wins and one draw. I attach schemes and strategies, a photo of a great prize for this event.

First game I played against Bayou

.

My opponent's crew:

New Ophelia LaCroix Crew (Bayou)
Size: 50 - Pool: 6
Leader:
  Ophelia LaCroix
Totem(s):
  Young LaCroix
  Young LaCroix 2
  Young LaCroix 3
Hires:
  Merris LaCroix
  Rami LaCroix
    Inferiority Complex
  Raphael LaCroix
  Francois LaCroix
  Gautraeux Bokor
  Lucky Effigy
    Effigy of Fate

My opponent's schemes:

LTB, LYM

My crew:

New Nexus Crew (Explorer's Society)
Size: 50 - Pool: 4
Leader:
  Nexus
    Hidden Agenda
Totem(s):
  Shambling Nest
  Shambling Nest 2
Hires:
  Archivist
  Dr. Meredith Stanley
  Mr. Ngaatoro
  Intrepid Emissary
  Winston Finnigan
 

My schemes :

LTB, LYM

I will not describe in detail what happened on the table, but I will say the following: during the placement, the opponent exposed Ophelia and the kins bubble under the blow of the Nexus totems, after which, for two turns, I ate his models with the help of the legion, threw phials from Meredith and by the time we reckoned he had Ophelia, effigey, totems dead, and the rest of the models were less than half health. I only lost Doctor Meredith. We counted, I opened LTM and strategy, my opponent revealed LYM and strategy. 2/2

Before the second game, I tossed a coin and Ivan fell out to me. Parker was put against me:

My opponent's crew:

New Parker Barrows Crew (Outcasts)
Size: 50 - Pool: 2
Leader:
  Parker Barrows
Totem(s):
  Doc Mitchell
Hires:
  Convict Gunslinger
    Soldier for Hire
  Convict Gunslinger 2
    Soldier for Hire
  Sue
  Mad Dog Brackett
  Hodgepodge Emissary

My opponent's schemes:

TP(Emissary), Assasinate

My crew:

New English Ivan Crew (Explorer's Society)
Size: 50 - Pool: 7
Leader:
  English Ivan
Totem(s):
  Mr. Mordrake
Hires:
  Eva Havenhand
  Gibson DeWalt
  Corvis Rook
  Intrepid Emissary
  Winston Finnigan
 

My schemes :

Assasinate, BRTHR

I came across a not very
experienced outcast player and it was a complete rout. We played five turns and at the end of the fifth turn, my opponent ran out of models in the absence of losses on my part. We played 8/2, the opponent opened the first TP condition and got one point per strategy. Ivan counters Parker.

I will continue a bit later :)

9 hours ago, Plaag said:

no, we have meta in our town

No, you don’t, toxic Russian! 

4 minutes ago, Adran said:

I must admit I try to never have a critical piece, so every model in the crew can be an allowable loss. But I know others don't play that way. 

There're some fancy lists, which are impossible without critical pieces( 

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

I would be happy if my opponent is killing BAD picks rather than my good models, but that's clearly bad play on their part.

 

 

 

It's not about bad or good pick, but about allowable losses. If bbs or other model is your "combo piece", then you're fucked up. But if you trying to use that tech just as backup plan, or the model that your opponent desperately-want's-to-kill, it's really win-win situation.

Guy's, bbs are one of the best models in NVB fraction . It's 2 matures on turn one if you need them, or its hell of a focuses for all models in your list. Just take Eyes in you crew, or start think how to place them in the way they will not die immediately after they gave focuses and transformed into matures. We take them in Lucius and Zoraida for utility, and you even don't know how to use then in rip-and-tear Nekima.

35 minutes ago, NoisyAssassin said:

It's possible that he had such a low win rate precisely because people tech against him 

May be people just don't like Douglas. Because you don't need to pick Mourning if you are having Yan Lo

4 minutes ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

so you're hiring Hamelin as a second master if your opponent declares McMourning?

He is playing Bayou, but why not?) Brewmaster is solid pick against Mourning

43 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Also surprised to see Molly perform so abysmally. Was it likely a player thing, or is she not suited to that meta, or just generally bad?

A can’t say a lot about Molly, because we haven’t a lot of resser  players, but I heard about and seen some horrible visions of Seamus/Molly lists that are pretty competitive.

16 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Fair points all around!

I'm really curious about Dreamer's performance. So far I've avoided him due to worrying about going to time, but I do love the crew. Anyone got lists for him?

Also surprised to see Molly perform so abysmally. Was it likely a player thing, or is she not suited to that meta, or just generally bad?

You know, our first place on that tournament is master of Dreamer. We can try to summon him and he will answer.(but you know, he almost always takes Pandora or Titania or Nekima as second master)

17 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That said, locally we ban them mostly on the basis of fun. We find double master games pretty boring/homogenous. So I think a lot of this "double masters are overpowered" is probably secretly "double masters suck to play against."

There are a lot of different definitions of fan) I really enjoy playing neverborn list that we named Charlie’s Angels (Pandora as leader, Titania, Nekima and Serena Bowman). I am fond of Titania/Euripides lists where you play both of yours masters as outflank scheme runners)

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@Scoffer one thing I forgot to say in the original post was thanks for putting this amazing dataset together! Super useful!

I take your point (and a few other's) that other things are clearly stronger than double-mastering. So it doesn't appear to be the biggest offender compared to some of those top masters.

But I think you're overestimating how quickly a meta can be solved. Even if those players are playing 3 times a week, that's still less than 150 games. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a hundred games just to master a single crew, much less an entire faction and all of its cross-keyword possibilities. As far as I know, data of this quality is pretty rare and far between. Without access to lots of data like this, even the most savvy of player couldn't necessarily solve a meta with only 150 games.

So I'm just saying the top tables should be taken with some grains of salt. Of course, the wider pool needs to be taken with grains of salt as well (maybe double masters just dominate weaker players who don't know how to deal with it or panic).

I think all our messages here can be rephrased as : “Don’t ban multimaster for all big tournaments. Give them a try. And may be you will found that they will not be dominating all the meta”

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Also, why assume the best players would take double masters if that is so powerful? It is early days, and even the best players may not have a clear idea of what is powerful (and may not have had the chance to practice double

I have one very important note to that statement. It is not early days, we are trying to find best tool to win in our meta for 7 months at least. I was third on tournament and lost only to second place, just because I picked Euripides/Zoraida in first game, against Colette, instead of mono Collodi, who is broken as hell. This statistics is very solid for our top player)

I just want to notice that the “broken” multimasters, are not more broken than Shenlog, Dreamer or Collodi.

Even in casual games we don’t have a lot restrictions. (The most important is not to mix DMH and normal masters). But finally a lot of players realized that second master is just another tool to counter opponents leader. For example, I really don’t know how to play well against  McMourning while you playing neverborn and can’t take Pandora as second master.

40 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

Due to statistics Nellie and Seamus are overpowered. NERF GUILD! NERF RESSERS!

Nerf everyone except neverborn xD

DMH is not overpowered, multi masters are not overpowered. Fair Malifaux. Due to statistics of first three places)

15 hours ago, Ogid said:

 

The base is looking just like that, I think it can be improved but I played it only 2 times. ( 12 models, not 13, mea culpa)

28 minutes ago, Ogid said:

However, what brings Euripides as a OOK hire without more Savages in a Zoraida Crew? Do you usually take those elite list into pools that require few interacts or you can pick them into pools heavy in schemes and just pick off the scheme runners before going for the other crew? I'm not used to those Elite crews.

Euripides is just very good model itself. It is fast, mobile, very good beater. He can be horrible for crews that are walking inside the bubble. My record is 15 MV duels during one Euripides activation. In our meta you can only play Elite crews because everything else dies very fast. (But I found one Pandora list with 13 models that can actually work) 

Quote

As in your meta seem to be a lot of  Eurpides and Lucius, what do you guys think about this list? I like how it looks but I won't be able to try it in a while:

• Lucius, The scribe, Euripides, Primordial Magic, Geryon (Inhuman Reflexes), Changeling, Changeling2, Changeling3, Black Blood Shaman. Cache 0.

I don't like the cache 0 at all... maybe it'd be a good idea removing 1 changeling, the PM or the BBS tho.

I think now its better to summon @Domin he is really fan of Build The Wall mechanic. I think it is good list, but the third changeling should be dropped.

Quote

The idea is doing a lot of indirect damage with Eurpidies and Changelings (and Lucius) copying Runed-Etched Ice; which may create serious roadblocks and set up a lot of healing for Geryon and Mobility for Euripides. With so many pilars the Incorporeal from Primordial will be quite good (and will make the Geryon harder to kill). BBS is there to pulse focused, grow into a mature and have another good minion to obey. Plus Changelings and Lucius may obey 2 top notch minions (Geryons and Mature).