Fluffaluffacus

I absolutely agree that there needs to be some in keyword beater or ranged blight option. It feels like the rats are in a good place, the Kings, the Catchers, even the stolen and wretch. I also cant comment on Nix but overall, Hamelin feels like he kept around his out activate you playstyle without being m2e's cancer of the rat engine. He is more in on the blight and harassing the opponents options and actions which I love. He truly feels like a control master except one thing.

How does he end the game? It feels so difficult for him to deal with the opponent's models if they are fast and strong enough to get up into your important models and start wailing. There needs to be some sort of either tar pit (Plague Pit) with decent damage or speed. Think Nothing Beast but with hair and more rats. Yes, you can hire out of keyword but that really just messes with the entire feel of m3e.

Neither is Shang!

RECOUNT!

Tanuki are not dogs!

Eheheheheheh, EHEHEHEHEHEHEH. THANK YOU BASED WYRD GODS. BUT PLEASE.....


Don't fuck this up by making him have df4 or something dumb...

I think another problem is that Arcanists have a problem about having "The best model at this slot" and no reason to run anything else. Joss, Howard, Mages, Acolytes. When going through we just have a hard time justifying anything else unless it has extreme synergy with the crew at those SS levels. We have a lot of "This is the best no reason to bring anything else" models. I'd like to see more models that at those ss costs give us a different option of similar power but maybe have different reasons to bring them. 

11 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

Callout box on small rulebook page 40:

So if you're "placing" markers or models, you can often sneak in an extra inch or two by keeping just a hair's width of said model/marker within specified distance.

I don't know about Archie specifically but note that most Leaps are "moving" the model in question, in which case you just move it a set amount of inches and so can't sneak in any extra distance.

Archie's Hulking Leap places him within 3in. But awesome. Good to know.

I just need to clarify some rules and I'm too lazy to try to search through everything for them. For leaps, including Archie's hulking leap, when you place the model within the set amount of inches, does the entire base need to be within? Or only part? 
Same thing with effects that place markers, like Seamus' Sebastian Baker 0 to place a marker within 12". Is that fully within the 12, or just partially?
I've just heard conflicting answers at this point and I'd rather just get it solved.

Just now, KingCrow said:

In regards to the first part of this quote and a part of your previous quote - it seems that to "be good" with Kaeris means you MUST take those upgrades you mentioned.  I'm more concerned about the fact that I try to play her a different way and that way is so sub-par that it is near useless.  Her other limited upgrade, Purifying Flame, is worthless and the fact that if you don't take Grab and Drop, she's screwed.  I know there are many masters that have an optimal build and playstyle (i.e. Marcus, etc) but it seems to me that a Master who seems to revolve around the burning condition should have better interactions with it. 

So yes, with the "optimal upgrade build" she probably does have more survivability than a couple of the top tier masters but vary from that and her survivability plummets. 

Well as Adran said in my other post. Do you want to have fun with Burning, or do you want to win?

Because apparently we can't have both (Rezzers mcmourning).

18 hours ago, Adran said:

Isn't that the sort of situation where Kaeris excels? If the heavy hitter is to big for her to kill she can use it as a delivery system for her to go and attack something esle. If it isn't too big she can just kill it. 

I know I've tried that against a good kaeris player, and he then crossed half the board and was able to push my models out of the places where they had gone to score points. 

I'm not sure I agree, she is sitting about the same as most of the Arcanist masters in terms of Damage. I still disagree with your defence claims, since a model with 2 lower df, lower wounds and better armour (which seems useless for kaeris in other comparisons)  is apparently more durable. Prehaps we can agree that you two don't like her, but other people do seem to like her and get good results with her so there must be something there.   From what I've read its that she doesn't play well in the style you want to play her, which is not the same as not playing well ever

How exactly did he go across half the board if he was engaged? 
And what Arcanist master is easier to kill than her?

And I love Kaeris. She is by far my favorite master. I just know she isn't great and is bottom tier of Arcanist with Colette.

I'll post what I posted in my Kaeris topic.
Colette has all her defensive triggers to save her and the same 6/6 defenses and a free ss to use to protect herself every turn, only 4 less wounds.
Ramos is 2 less df but has healing, armor 2, a defensive trigger to increase his df and push the attacker away, and rarely wants to be on front lines anyways, 2 less wds.
Raspy doesn't want to be on the front lines, has counter spell and subzero to defend against mi attacks, has the worst df but again subzero and never wants to be on the front anyways.
Ironsides is now by far our tankiest master with all her ways to heal, hard to kill, and the good shot trigger built in. 1 less df.
Mei feng has the same stats with a better defensive trigger on a mask to push 5in.
Sandeep has 1 less df but Arcane shield (which is better and worse than armor), and impossible to wound with the same amount of wds, and a heal on his push.
Marcus has 1 less df, same wds, but has Defend me. 

14 hours ago, doubledragon said:

Which upgrades are you using on Kaeris? I've been up against Kaeris a fair bit and she definitely does not need an overhaul. Her new upgrades really make her a force to be reckoned with on the table. Flaming angel and heatwave are great.

One of my regular opponents plays her quite a bit and he runs her with Imbued Defense, Flaming Angel and Heatwave with a decent cache of stones. He charges her up the board early on dropping burning onto my crew with flaming angel, pumps out more burning with heatwave. He does this early on while parts of my crew are still within close proximity of each other, so tying them up. Kaeris then usually dies by turn 3 or 4, but she's killed a fair bit of stuff before she goes and I've spent the first half of the game trying to deal with her in my backlines as she pushes around with Flaming Angel. He then uses the rest of his crew to go score strat and schemes as I deal with her. A Df 7 master with armor a big cache of stones requires a lot of AP to take down.

As someone who doesn't play Kaeris, but has played against someone who plays her well and plays her often. I would say the way to play Kaeris is as a big beater/distraction. Throw her at your opponents crew quick and early. Make them deal with her and while they have that major distraction, go score your points for the win with the rest of the crew. Anyway, that how my buddy plays her with a lot of success.

Kaeris is definitely not a big beater. Like at all. She does such small damage for a master. And she is one of the easiest to kill masters in our faction, honestly.

4 hours ago, KingCrow said:

Those are all good points.  I just had a reactivating Witchling Thrall with Nimble who ignores armor and McCabe are in Kaeris's face turn two which meant a dead Kaeris turn 3.  Also, Kaeris shooting and randomizing into melee and hitting your own models, even if it is Carlos, is terrible.  Hell, the Friekorps Specialist I brought to try out did more damage and burning than Kaeris.  Kaeris really does need some sort of overhaul... even if it's just to make her tankier or make her abilities better (i.e. No  on her actions or make more of her actions so she doesn't have to be so close to melee.

If I would've played Marcus or basically any other Master, I probably would've done a lot better.  I just wanted to try out Kaeris to again affirm just how bad she is.  lol.

I think you were in it, but if you weren't check out my Topic Flaming Angel in the Room. You'll get to see exactly what she is about.

BUT. You could bring this in Kaeris! Set the bird on fire, grab and drop being your limited. Walk the bird 16 and then drop a scheme marker as well.

Will definitely have to consider this next time I play. Solid find.

4 hours ago, Adran said:

She has a high DF stat and Armour with decent number of wounds, she isn't that vulnerable to death. She is one of the most durable Arcanist masters. Seriously what kills her that can't kill most other different masters? 

Except she really isn't.
Colette has all her defensive triggers to save her and the same 6/6 defenses and a free ss to use to protect herself every turn, only 4 less wounds.
Ramos has healing, armor 2, a defensive trigger to increase his df and push the attacker away, and rarely wants to be on front lines anyways, 2 less wds.
Raspy doesn't want to be on the front lines, has counter spell and subzero to defend against mi attacks.
Ironsides is now by far our tankiest master with all her ways to heal, hard to kill, and the good shot trigger.
Mei feng has the same stats with a better defensive trigger on a mask to push 5in.
Sandeep has 1 less df but Arcane shield (which is better and worse than armor), and impossible to wound with the same amount of wds.
Marcus has 1 less df, same wds, but has Defend me. 

41 minutes ago, Adran said:

Cheers. Still can't remember all the new upgrades. 

Start of turn is stronger as it lets you act before them. 

In fact, it looks like heatwave a and flaming angel are largely the sort of upgrades that King Crow wants to make her burning more relevant/ easier to apply.  

While yes. They are also 2ss, and hw competes with G&D...HW wants a large amount of burning and for it to work well Kaeris has to be in the middle of things, and she is not tanky nor does she want to be on the front lines really. It makes it really hard. She crumbles like soft paper. Armor 1 as a defensive tool is such a wave 1 defense, even more so now that you have so many models ignoring armor or reductions, she just dies. She wants to be back lines to support her crew, but her new upgrades make her want to be in the front. And she just cant. She is not meant to be. She needs to be much harder to kill for that, and not just more armor. More armor won't do anything.

I think thats a problem. I'm seeing people say "Yeah. I play Kaeris perfectly fine. I just ignore all the burning synergy and she is decent." So...The arcanist burning master, who is all about burning...You just ignore burning and basically dont bring any....That upsets me. That would be like saying. "Yeah...The best way to play marcus is to basically bring no beasts." I know its not a direct comparison but like....christ that sounds terrible.

Yeah. I absolutely agree. I am scared he will be better in lucious because once again, more arcanist models being better in other factions. Also yes. I hate ours, myranda, coryphee duet, Ferdinand, ramos, spider swarms. All made terrible.

Kaeris. We are talking about Kaeris. Just in case you didn't catch that. 
So. We know at some point we are getting the Backdraft box, which will have some magnificent burning related models. But we don't know the impact that will have on our hot vixen. So what are something we could wish for on her card, and in relation her emissary conflux.

Option 1: The most obvious. Give her instinctual on her card or on an upgrade attached to her. This has been requested by Kaeris, seeing as she has 2 0's on her card and each limited has a 0. And a few of them work well together. That would also mean changing her conflux. As it stands, the static ability on the conflux is pretty piss poor. If a minion near the emissary deals damage they can suffer damage to put a burning on. That is....okay at best, but usually you don't want to just be hitting your own minions a bunch for this ability. The reason we bring it is for Flame-O-Taur! Giving that sweet sweet instinctual to Kaeris.  But if she gets this ability on her card/upgrade, this will need to change. I think having a 0 that maybe even has the same duel and everything, but it gives her "I did it!". Firestarter's aura that makes it count as her kill when an enemy model within 6" dies from burning. 

Option 2: The emissary. Change the emissary's passive ability to give Kaeris the instinctual, whether in a large aura or just while the emissary is in play. This is by far worse than option 1, but would at least stop  the problem of having such a specific activation order a Kaeris crew. Then we could have the same 0 action as option 1.

Are there any other ideas anyone has about this situation? I love Kaeris, I play her. I have fun with her. But I always feel like I have this 10ss upgrade attached, which gives me a mediocre Oxfordian mage.



A secondary question I have. Kaeris has a lot of high cost model options. Which ones do you usually end up taking.

Carlos Vasquez
Rail Golem
Arcane Emissary
The Captain (after his buff)
Howard Langston (Because a flying Howard is terrifying.)


And then the final question I have is.
Firestarter. Do you ever not take him?
And fire gamin. Do you take them and if you do, how many?

Where does Mr. Vogel fit into. He has some obvious synergy with marcus, but is always hard for me to put in there because at 8ss with the damage track on his flip side, id rather bring a cerb.

Does he actually go into Colette? On his front side, he is a minion so he gets 0 interact, which is great because he doesn't have an interact. He can then Laws of nature a Cassandra or coryphee, get the mask trigger and push them 6 and give them a melee attack. Then he can drop his marker for free, possibly toss it if you have a mannequin, and then walk and end within 3 of it to draw a card and remove it. Being pretty self sufficient. And then she can prompt him on his back side as a large mobile beater. He obviously cant get the reactivate trigger, but even then it seems very solid.

Any input on this?

2 hours ago, WWHSD said:

I really want the Flaming Mechanical Bull to be awesome. It makes me kind of sad to see how awesome the Carrion Emissary is in comparison. Maybe we can get the soul stone discount that the other factions got for their Riders for our Emissary. 

WTF is up with Ramos's Conflux? The model that looks like a Construct get that keyword and Magnetism. That's it.

I have found only 3 conflux semi worth bringing the emissary for. Kaeris. Ironsides. MAYBE raspy. But now figuring this out, it makes it even less likely to bring it. I think the problem is...
He wants to be with him team, giving out Flesh and metal and his conflux abilites. BUT he wants to charge in. His conflux 0's usually aren't worth it, compared to negation. His elemental rage is basically a worse Oxfordian mage attack. Relentless charge is neat but can only be used with his charge. Its hard to get him anywhere because he is a 50mm with walk 4. His elemental burst on his charge is neat, but unless you're going against rezzers it usually doesn't do much. In Kaeris he has to activate first to give her instinctual, but he is your beater so don't really want to be forced to activate him early. He needs unimpeded or something, minimally. 

Oh look, another reason why the Arcane emissary is almost good enough in a fringe moment, but then not at all when it comes down to the details.

So I'm very technical about wording and perhaps the years of Card games have told me to break things. But I want to be sure.

Pack
Hunting in Pairs: When this model has the opportunity to move due to the stalked condition, a friendly model withing 6" may immediately take a walk action.

Now. Is this if the model TOOK the walk action only, or if they had the opportunity to take it and for some reason didn't. Lets say they were completely tied up. Could the other model move even if the Rogue Necro didn't take the walk?

The larger question here is if you take two Rogue Necros and both have pack, Can they hunt in pairs each other and then one of them take the Stalked walk action since they both had the Opportunity to take the stalked triggered walk action, but only one gets to actually take it.

8 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Ummm how did pushing Seamus off the claim marker win you a game? You know it pushes Seamus and not the target, right?

 

Worded that weirdly. I pushed Seamus away, and then let me shoot the target.

7 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Even if the bag was free it wouldn’t be taken because it’s limited. I’m not sure of the wider ramifications but looking at current master design on the middle to upper tier masters, I feel pretty comfortable in saying you could probably just remove Seamus’ backhand attack from his card completely and give him the attack from bag o tools instead and he would still fit within the current master parameters. 

I’m not saying they should do that, or that I’m advocating for it, or that there might not be something I’m missing, but I think you could do it and still not break the game or make Seamus even the best master in the faction. 

But at least the recent change gives him something and will definitely increase his fun level as you won’t basically be locked into taking the same move focus shoot turn sequence every turn. Charge, attack twice with live for pain, boo, and then shoot seems like a much more interesting turn to me.

No. I like his backhand attack. Sometimes you have to show people who is boss. Also it won me a game once buy pushing the model off the stash marker....