Qracy

May I suggest to open a new thread in the general topics in OB forum?

Because although I find this discussion very interessting, I think it got more a general discussion about balancing and game design?

But maybe I am wrong, I don't want to stop the discussion...

It's funny, but I agree with both of you, not having a solution to that:

On the one hand, I want to keep that unique abilities, that lead to the richness of diversity in Malifaux. With M3E, a little bit of that was lost, because of the unification of abilities, which is ok, because it gets more transparency. Therefore I vote for keeping Agent 46's abilities as they are.

On the other hand, I understand Trikk's argument: The abilities of single models, which seem balanced when you just look at them, can change the Meta of the game system and lead in the worst case to the scenario, Trikk has showed up.

I think you will never get a perfectly balanced tabletop, because there are too many variables (e.g. the game board and terrain setup) you cannot take into concern.

And there are not only competitive players out there. But you should balance the game in a way, that it keeps it uniqueness and a vital meta...

10 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Open beta playtsting.... where people cry to nerf everything that isn’t a straight forward dude with a sword and def 5... 

srsly get creative, use ur minds and u will find ways to deal with him. The point of a Lucius crew is controll, so of course the only real beatstick in the crew is more controlly than a augmented beatstick or a nephilim. Thanks the point. 

It’s a good ability which is nice and thematic and asks the opponent questions. Which is exactly Lucius playstyle. 

If ur an opponent that doesn’t really have answers to that kind of questions, maybe ur just not really trying or not creative or just not very good vs that kind of playstyle.... 

there is a lot of counterplay against the agent.

first of all, obeys need line of sight.

also, m3e has lots of indirect damage. Stampede, misery, blade dance, blasts, veangence, black blood, pulses, etc.

and there are plenty of good options to hit without cheating: 

rig the deck, focus, high stats, intuition, mass attacks, the old ways, obeying Lucius models to hit the agent, limiting his cheating via betrayal kind of auras (betrayal and arcane emissary aura) 

and it’s not like the agent Auto hits and murders everyone. He has to deal with minus flips aswell and he doesn’t copy any plus flips from other actions. 

Honestly this movent of „I don’t immediately find a solution, so my solution is to go to the forums and cry till it’s nerfed“ just ruins Malifaux. 

80% of the Games beaters are 3/4/5(6) stat 6 with basically a few minimum difference triggers already... stop making the Game more homogeneous, it’s already super boring compared to m2e when it comes to model choices. 

Competitive players can’t even post any really good combos in the forums because there would be 10 people instantly crying about how op that would be... 

that kind of behavior and the behavior that leads to it hurts any progress the beta should bring to the game. 

The goal is to balance m3e, not flatten it till it’s 7  models vs 7 differently looking but rulewise equal models.

Thank you, that is 100% what I meant.

I absolutly agree!

Or instead/additionally:

Demise(This is my fate): If this model is killed and the enemy has cheated during the duel or damage flip, this model is not killed and heals 1.

or like the Midnight Stalker:

Demise (Eternal): Once per Turn. After this model is killed, it may discard a card. If it does so, it Heals 4.
 

That would go in a similar direction, but you have a chance to conter: Either don't cheat or use an Attack action that ignores Demise Abilities.

19 minutes ago, trikk said:

I'd give him "discard to cheat fate against him" and raise his Df to 6 instead of HtK. The 9 Wds for 10SS would be ok, 8 for 9SS is debatable)

 

Concerning the ability, I think that would be a consensus.

Concerning the wounds, I would not agree. Look at the Judge: 10SS for 10 Wounds + HTK + HTW

I Think 9 Wounds for 9 SS would be fair, if you nerf his inhuman physiology.

Or, what about something like "Hold'em" just the other way around?

So, "discard to cheat fate against him" + 8 Wounds + "Your weakness is my strength: If a model cheats fate in an opposed duel with this model, this model heals +1. This happens after resolving the duel and even if this model would be killed." for 9SS.

On 2/7/2019 at 9:29 AM, Ming said:

Judge has the same typo Marlena had:

FCrumble Away 12" 6 Wp 12
Models within p2 of the target suffers 2 damage. Then, kill the target and draw a card.

But that ability isn't meant to work like that, is it?

You can't just win a WP Duel and get an instant kill?

How is this ability read correctly?

15 minutes ago, trikk said:

I don't know if you know, but Blasts don't work from friendly models. 

He usually has Shielded 2 and I would definitely give him LLC and he's a henchman so pinging him down is also an issue. 

And I assume my opponent is not dumb enough to stand his almost-unhittable model next to the Df3 dude that you can blast from

Jap, forgot about that new Blasts rules. Sorry for that.

Armour and Shielded can be ignored.

And as I told you, in my last game he was killed by a desperate merc....but of course that's not representative.

OK, let's see to act on your suggestion:

I think raising his costs to 10SS would not change anything in my oppinion.

The Question is, why do have the Designers given him this ability? I think they would like to have a model, that has less wounds than other Henchmen but a good survivability, which cannot be ignored by other abilities or just by Focus...

I think, instead of Inhuman Physiology,  another option would be giving him something like Betrayal (like The Scribe), raise his wounds to 9 and give him Hard to Kill.

Is there an ability, which forces the enemy to discard a card to cheat against a model without a range restriction? That would maybe be it...

What do you think?

31 minutes ago, trikk said:

Yes. But I think it would be way more appealing and consistent with the Distracted +1 since that how all the Bury attacks work.

Yes, I agree!

35 minutes ago, trikk said:

 Some crews have no answer to him

Example?

Every Faction has models with Attacks. If the Enemy declares Lucius as the Leader or you fear in general, that he might pick the Agent 46, take a model that deals . That is the answer every faction has to Inhuman Physiology.

And if you want to be sure, pick some cheap models, stand next to the agent, concentrate and Attack your own, cheap model.

And in general, that's Malifaux. You always have bad matchups and crews, which can't handle another enemy crew....

35 minutes ago, trikk said:

If he stays as is, he should at least go to 10SS

Why? What is the argument for that? Why not 11SS? Or 12SS? Or 8SS?

I think if you look at the most Henchmen, they are in the middle about 9SS and that's fine.

I would like to see some minor changes, which would make them more versatile and therefore seen on the table:

First, what about "Distraction" for the Orderlies:

Enemy models within 2 of this model suffer to Wp duels.

I think that fits to their lore...

Then a minimal change to Emily Heartsbane Straightjacket:

Target must be within 2" of a friendly Asylum model.
 

This change would make her much more versatile and effectivly be used in other crews, because then, you do not need to take another Asylum model to make use out of her abilities.

And works well together with the orderlys...

Last I would give Dr. Grimwell Terrifying (11).

That also fits well to his lore, because everybody is afraid of the doctor. And would make a nice additional synergy with the orderly:

Because if you are facing the doctor and an orderly ist nearby to assist him, you can't imagine anything more frightening...😉

1 minute ago, trikk said:

Umm, you need 19SS and the Agent is 9SS out of it.

• His 2 basic actions.
• Issue Command from Changeling (7, draw a card)
• Obey (9 or 9 with Tools for the Job, draw a card)
• Issue Command to Changeling to Issue Command Agent (5 and 7, draw two cards)
• Issue Command to Lawyer to Obey Command Agent. (5 and 9, draw a card)
• Issue Command on Agent (5, no cards)

 

So for 2x7, 2x9 and 3x5 you get 5 cards. I assume 2x5, 1x7 and 1x9 are topdecked. So you need a 9.,7.5 and you draw 5 cards.

Yes, that's another option. You are right.

But that is what Lucius Crew is all about.

And as I have written in my last post, you can do nasty combinations also on other models (like the executioner).

As long as Lucius and his crew is not winning too many games in the overall statistics, I don't see the need for a change.

And you used all of your master activations for that set up...

Look at, what other masters do during their activations. Just played agaist the Vics. Yes you may cheat vs. the Viks, but with a Stat of 7 and an average Df with 4-5 in most crews....

Until now, I have not read an argument, why the Agent 46 or the Inhuman Physiology ability in general should be changed, that convinced me.

2 hours ago, trikk said:

I don't know if it was accounted for, but the Emissary has the only Pinebox-like Bury with no Distracted and no built-in-trigger. Anyone thinks Into the Cage is, in any way, useful? I always found the sword to be a better option.

 

I also had no use for A Cage for All. I think it would probably be better as a free action (it would still compete with Aura of Vengence)

It is situational but a strong ability to get a model out of play for a while.

You can clear charge Lanes or models with a strong . If you have a reliable tank in front of you or models with nasty Resistance Trigger (I am looking at you Pandora), the cage is my choice.

Of course, you can try this also with his Greatsword and a or a , but the cage with a stat of 4 in general is more reliable. And sometimes the 3" on a or 4" on a is not enough to clear the situation.

I see the cage more as a bonus to the Brutal Emissary.

On 2/9/2019 at 3:50 PM, trikk said:

He can pretty easily do 7 actions a turn with Obey, Changeling and Lucius.

You can make every minion do 7 Actions with Lucius and that crew.

But you will need 6 Models and 6 Activations for this Set up with a total cost of 29 SS.

And you need a 5, three 7 and one 9to successfully do that.

If you hire an Executioner, he can even do 8 Actions a turn (Because of Trail of Gore), and if the Scribe is nearby, the enemy can also only cheat 3 Times, so the Executioner does 5 Actions, where the enemy can't cheat either. And his attacks hits harder because of min Dmg 3.

I think this is very theoretical, you will find everywhere combinations, which at the first glance seem overpowered, but in Reality, these situation occur only once in a lifetime, because other things happen you have to react to. Because during these 6 Activations mentioned you need for this set up, the enemy will do 6 Activations by himself and will do nasty things too.

And you will have to react to that...

He is now more a glass cannon, but a very effective one:

With Hoffman and the other Augmented models, the Power Token enables him to add a to all of his Stat 6 Attacks or alternativly hit with on his Claws.

Combined with the Executioner Claws, that is really deadly. You have to protect him, but Steam Cloud is also very nice.

If you compare him to the emissary, that one would be the better pick if you just look at the model. But when you look at the synergy with Hoffman and the other constructs, his offense is really, really good:

Because you can collect Power Tokens on him, on the first round, maybe 3 or 4, then he has or on his attacks and can still use power tokens for his defence, when the enemy's answer is coming in.

So I would pick him in some Matchups: Card Hungry Crews or Crews/Master with good Resistance-Trigger. If you are facing Pandora e.g., I would always prefer Howard and would never take the Emissary. But of course, it is situational.

On 2/7/2019 at 3:51 PM, Sweet Tooth said:

I like the Mv aura idea. It would give me a solid reason to bring the recruiter when I go DM heavy (which to be fair is most games with Marshal). 

Would still be nice to give the Domador a bonus action. That would push them into the 'Just Right' territory for me. Doesn't have to be something you do all the time either. (I like Shrug Off but don't need it very often)

In general no bad idea, but in my feelings, the crews will get too similar:

The witch hunter have the Witchling Handler with a MV-, the Guards have their Seargents and then, the Marshall would have their recruiters...

My suggestion is giving the Domador the "Like The Wind"-Trigger to it's Command Corpse Action and making it "Once per Activation", so there is no need to raise the Soulstone cost. If you want to make it super-nice, remove the built-in and the TN's and add e.g. the mental trauma Trigger on a

Then, this Ability would make the Domador the versatile Toolbox, it should be in my oppinion: You can command a Death Marshal and heal him with , push himself with to keep up with the rest of the crew or use it in on an enemy Undead with the mental Trauma Trigger. The "Once per Activation" Restriction would prevent it from excessive use.

Just a fixed idea...😊

1. Dashel

2. LJ / Nellie

3.  ---------

4. Sonnia / Lucius

5. ----------

6. Hoffmann

7. Basse / Perdita

8. ----------

I have not played Basse right now, so it is difficult for me to rank him.

I see Dashel being extremly strong. The Shouting orders ability, Pursue and Loot their corpses are fantastic, nearly all of his crew attacked with focus during my games.

In my experience, Hoffmann was not that bad, as long as the enemy has not too many armour reducing / ignoring abilities. His crew works well together but does not have to stay that close to each other like in M2E.

In general, it is difficult to make a ranking. Do you just look at the Master as  a unique model itself or at the whole crew, it's synergies and overall effectiveness?

2 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

In my games he hasn't been so strong that it has mattered.  Hes tough, but certainly not unstoppable.  Plus flips on attacks against him are very effective, because you will spend down your hand.

Yes, that is my experience, too.

In my last game playing Lucius against the Vics, a Desperate Mercenery (!!!) killed my Agent 46 in Melee.

In another game - a Mirror Match Lucius vs. Lucius, both Agent 46 survived, but also did not hand out a lot of Damage by themselve.

Of course, this ability is strong, but I don't like the idea to streamline every ability.

There should be models within all factions, which are a problem for the enemy to solve.

Of course, these should be limited in number (in this case, being a Henchman, Elite und 9 Pts. is a limitation in itself).

And there are enough means against Models like this: Everything with indirect damage (e.g. Blasts or the Ricochet Trigger), Shockwaves and all other Abilities, which force an enemy into a simple duel, blocking charge lanes with Severe/Blocking Markers etc...

Because Focus not ending at the end of the turn, all on Duels are not that difficult to turn into a straight than it was in M2E (yes, I am looking at you Midnight Stalker).

I would not change Agent 46 / the ability in General.

39 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

My immediate thought is everything I have heard is that parkers crew is disgustingly powerful, so that might be more of the problem in the second game.

Maybe, but when you judge over a modell/crew, you cannot only look at the games, where Sonnia's summon ability and the Thralls work very well. You also have to consider these shooty crews and then, you have a completly different situation.

And you have good matchups, where Sonnia's summoning is strong and you have bad matchups, where you cannot get the summon engine working.

I don't see her being overpowered in the open Beta. And she is definietly not the stongest Master / the strongest crew within the Guild.

And therefore, I can again only say, that I vote for not changing anything on Sonnia's Stat card.

On 2/7/2019 at 8:52 AM, trikk said:

Why not both? I still think while Patrol are meh, the dogs are a pretty good summon, especially that they don't give pass tokens right away.

Agreed. Dogs are fine for summoning or hire into the crew, but the only use for a Guard Patrol I can see is the "Take the Hit" Ability to protect Dashel or the Executioners. But that is very situational and if you do not have any more use out of a model, it is a bad pick.

16 hours ago, trikk said:

Oh yea... that thing. 

Non-Master Family models get +1? Althought I'd rather she had a more defensive aura than an offensive one. I think the Ortega offense is pretty good already with the new ability.

Yes, Non-Master sounds good. I find this solution better than making her price go up or the ability overpowered.

1 hour ago, Passenty said:

Once per turn is an option, but genrally the ability is good becuse the summons are at full wds and without slow. Imo they should have wds equall to the burning removed

I completly disagree. 😉

It is difficult enough with Sonnia to summon a model because you have to set up the summoning and spend Actions on that instead of just summon a model like a lot of the others Summoners in the other factions do.

If you get a Thrall with a maximum of 5 Wounds out of it when you kill a 8 SS Model, I think you can completly remove the Action, because the then it would be more trouble than it's worth.

Again, I vote for don't change anything on Sonnia. She works fine at the current state.

1 hour ago, trikk said:

I strongly disagree. Its pretty easy to get 1 thrall as there aren't really many crews that can outdamage Sonnia at range, so they have to get close. Her whole crew gives out Burning. Getting 5dmg + full HP Thrall with no slow is a huge gamechanger. If you manage to get two Thralls in the game (a lot more probable than expected) you snowball that into a pretty easy win IMHO.

 

We had 2 or 3 games with/against her. 2 of them with the 6" range. The net gain was 3 Thralls, 2 Stalkers. 1 draw and 2 wins.

You disagree in which point?

I had two games with her, one with 6" range and one with 8".

During the first one, she could not even summon one model, was killed by Teddy and I lost the game. During the second game, she managed to summon one Thrall out of a Convict Gunslinger (difficult due to Hard to kill). The Thrall walked two times and then was shot down by the rest of Parker's Crew, like the first Thrall, which I hired into the Cew.

I lost two 8SS models, which had not any chance of survival against a shooty crew and did nothing but walk two times. The game ended in a Draw.

So, neither your nor my results seem to be representative, do they? Because they are diametrically opposed to each other. If you get the average out of it, it seems Sonnia is ok, how she works, because sometimes she can manage to summon a lot, and sometimes not, which sounds fair to me.

Concerning the thralls, I miss a little bit the survivability they had in M2E. I wish they have Hard to kill or Terrifying, making them a little bit more than a glass cannon (in my feelings). Or at least also Shielded +1. I miss the option of a "tank" in Sonnia's Crew, also a lot of modells have Shielded, I lack a reliant Pick for that.

3 hours ago, Rufess said:

How about turning the summoning part into a trigger and make it once per turn?

Why? Don‘t See the Point?

I think it is ok the way it actually works.

I think Sonnia‘s primary role is not being a Summoner. She is a veratile toolbox, can hand out damage and burning, reduce enemy‘s range, support Witchlings.

I see the summon ability more as a bonus.

The last buff to 8“ was necessary in my opinion, to see this action being used at the table, because Sonnia wants to stay back /in the second line.

But with that happening, I have a good feeling about her how she works right now.

Actually, I have a worse feeling about Thralls; my experience is, that they die too easily for an 8SS model.

They lack something like Terrifying or Inhuman Physiology. Hard to wound is too easy to handle for the enemy.

19 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

Yeah it helped a lot.  Tbh a pair of investigators attacking together (especially with Lucius nearby to give extra attacks) is a kinda scary thing on its own.

I tried that once, but in my case, it was underwhelming. The 0" Melee Range was the problem. The enemy managed to engage them within 1-2", so they often needed one action (either their own or by Lucius/Lawyers abilities) to get into position.

My conclusion was to take only one the next time and instead of the second investigator give Doppelganger a try...