Flippin' Wyrd George

Kaeris - blinding flame/grab and drop/seize the day

Malifaux child

Howard Langston imbued energies

Johan imbues energies

Angelica practiced production

Then your choice of 3-4 models to complete the crew.

I usually take a performer, steamfitter, acolyte, union miner, moleman or wind gamin.

A+ Sandeep

B+ Kaeris, Marcus

B Ironsides, Ramos, Rasputina

D Colette

E Mei Feng

This is pretty much how I'd rate our masters based on my own success with them at the current state in the game. Poor Colette 😢

17 hours ago, Fictor said:

@HollingydaleIf you pick an Steamfitter I think you want the upgrade Frozen Servant for Envelop in Ice it's true?

Nah I don't like frozen servants as I don't think it lends itself to Raspy's nuking play style. 

Steam fitter brings good card cycle to save your stones.. generally collecting masks for overpower. Also some cheap scheme running which can be taken while engaged, and the armour can be used on captain or snowstorm. Both have bullet proof I believe which stacks, that's nice.

https://flippinwyrdspodcast.podbean.com/

And here is the Flippin Wyrds take of the event! Battle reports for all our games as well as some shenanigans discussed...

Why not both?

Genuinely can see an arguement for having both in the list. Haven't tried it myself and it is a nigh 20 stone investment, but when that 20 stones is putting rasputina or targets in position so she can get three blasts off its got to be worth it, right?

50 SS Arcanists Crew
Rasputina + 6 Pool
 - Cold Nights (1)
 - December's Pawn (2)
 - Enveloped In Ice (2)
Wendigo (3)
Snow Storm (11)
 - Imbued Energies (1)
The Captain (9)
 - Patron's Blessing (1)
 - Imbued Energies (1)
Union Steamfitter (6)
Ice Dancer (6)
Ice Gamin (4)

 (exported from CrewFaux)

This could do some.

And I was:

Colette x1

Marcus x1

Sandeep x3

1 hour ago, Franchute said:

By the way, I may have some other questions for you, if you dont mind. I always run 7 sousltones (or 6 maybe) when I play my summoners. I was surprised when I saw you only consider 5 with Sandeep. A thing I do a lot with any master I play is stoning for two extra cards at the begining of the turn. Given how effective Action though Inaction seems to be, is it the case that you never stone for cards? If so, is it because of the upgrade or because you tend not to stone for cards in general?

Also what is your opinion about Myranda?

I used to run Sandeep with 7 stones every game, but I have found dropping to 5 isn't a problem if you are smart with resources. 5 is not ideal but the power in the rest of the crew is worth it

I rarely stone for cards, not necessarily because Action Through Inaction but mostly because the commands in wind upgrade offers so many +ve flips that you rarely need better cards than you draw up, and stones are at a premium. Also Oxfordian mages are usually engaged by turn 3 so they can generate more soulstones, you can use focus to almost guarantee one each activation.

But most games even outside of Arcanists I don't like to stone for cards because I feel it is a too often a waste of resource you can often put to better use. Low cards are useful too, often to make your opponent use their better cards, or to discard.

As for Myranda, I know nearly every other Arcanist player uses her but I don't really like her outside of Marcus. The cat is extremely fragile and almost useless after taking 5 dmg, which is very easy to do.  And if your opponent is able to prevent the damage from its 1 AP the turn it's summoned the trigger is useless and then a waste of 9 stones. Definitely has a place as a lot of people get success, and the card draw is nice, but she's just not one of my favourites.

3 hours ago, Franchute said:

No, we haven't. I apologize for this "informality". Being a fan of your podcast might have me crossed that line.

Alexandre

No mate, don't apologise at all! I'd much rather go by my first name than a forum nickname 😛 What do you think about the lists? I would like to use more captain myself but I haven't got around to it yet.

1 hour ago, Franchute said:

George, if you did not have access to the Valedictorian, would you simply replace him with, say, Howard? Or would you consider a completely different list? And go maybe for the Howard/Carlos list you mentionned?

This is tricky, I struggle to see this list without the vally purely for her tanky characteristics. I have considered Anna Lovelace also who is not tanky but does attack at range which helps her survive, and I may try her for the academic synergy, but it's only in theory and I doubt it's anywhere as good.

I would probably go down the Howard langston route, but would miss the threat range and survivability of Vally. I know the Americans get a lot of success with Joss in sandeep but I just don't see the manoeuvrability in him I think you need for the crew. It will also drop you down to 4 stones but that is doable so long as you remember to get the commands in wind upgrade out before your stones deplete. If you wanted Carlos that would also mean dropping Angelica and the automaton I'm not sure the mages can survive as well without her pushes, or that Unaligned Sage works without the automaton.

Perhaps you could swap Angelica and Vally for the Captain and Carlos? That fills all of the pushes, practised production, big minimum damage and survivability albeit at a few more resources.... 

What do you think? And as we are on first names basis, I wonder have we met previously? Forum names are deceiving 😁

Let's not forget that Action Through Inaction is once per activation, so oxfordian mages cannot cycle two cards by gaining fast and furious casting.

Dont get me wrong, fast is great, but I'd rather cycle a card lower than 7 and not spend 14 stones on Aoinus and have a stronger all-round crew, than have fast mages 

I already make a lot of use of Action Through Inaction and find a Medical Automaton is perfect for keeping on top of Sandeep's wounds.

2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Her layered Defenses are nice as well. Hard to Wound and Armor +1 on top of a decent sized Wd pool are a nice combo. 

Yep, plus access to soulstones and terrifying 12 before the opponent gets to hit. Layered defence is definitely what she is! The terrifying is great because it always takes more than one model to take her down, and it's usually more cards out of your opponents hand in an important turn.

Also Path to Salvation gives her an escape route if necessary in Vendetta games.

10 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I haven't gotten a Valedictorian yet but I frequently play against a Resser player who uses her as his go to beater. Wk 6 on a model with Flight is awesome. I have to think the thing people have against her is that her attack has a minimum damage of 2 in a world full of minimum damage 3 beaters. 

Yeah she isn't exactly a traditional beater, more of a "sucker" support model which can be a brutal beater if needed (those sweet rams, which you can stone for!).

My Vally often dies late turn 2 to mid turn 3, but is also, together with Banasuva, soaking up nearly all of my opponents offense, as they are engaging the opposing crew and need to be dealt with. By this point vally, mages, Banasuva and sandeep have usually done their job dmg wise in crippling the opponents crew enough it's a foregone conclusion.

The 2/3/6 isn't ideal, but with the amount of small damage the crew puts out, you barely notice it. And her threat range is reliably HUGE, Mage pushes, Angelica pushes, imbued energies and Path to Salvation combined with flight gives her near enough the entire board to exploit if necessary (I find you don't need the mages push past turn 1 tho)

Sandeep cache (5)  - To Command Another Plane/Unaligned Sage/Arcane Reservoir

Valedictorian - Imbued Energies

Kandara - Human Guise

Angelica - Practised Produxtion

Oxfordian Mage

Oxfordian Mage

Oxfordian Mage

Medical Automaton

The list is great. I have been running this since the UK masters this year and found that the card cycle from Unaligned Sage combined with the Medical automaton's healing is absolutely disgusting.

The way I play it is to usually have a Mage  beacon Sandeeps interact for Student of All, and use the free AP to bring out Immune to slow & can't cheat Banasuva, taking wounds on Kandara. Kandara activates, regenerates, removes the can't cheat upgrade from Banasuva so he is free to roam around or chaff up the board, and Kandara hides in safety til next turn.

Remaining two mages and Angelica can push Sandeep/Banasuva/Valedictorian into position and then you have theee solid beat sticks ready to go work. Generally Sandeep will use the 6" place, summon Commands in Wind gamin, put up Action Through inaction and then summon a third model or blast something if in range.

I hear a lot of hate for Valedictorian but she is stupidly tanky with hard to wound and terrifying - you don't need to cheat many cards to protect her whilst the opponent may need to cheat cards to attack! The ability to use soulstones also gives a reliable, long threat range from beaconing Path to Salvation

And having Action Through Inaction up gives so many opportunities for card cycle - furious casts, flurries and temporal shields alike. If the stars align, in one turn you can cycle 7 cards with this. It is definitely hard to find the spare AP to put it up, but it can be such a game changer. 

I used to run the Carlos/Howard list but finding a lot more offensive potential with this new crew, even if it doesn't look that way on paper.

2 hours ago, WWHSD said:

I was writting about summoning 0-1 Gamin in turns after the first because Sandeep’s summons are capped. 

 

I don’t think that most of them would make him unplayable or bad individually. The problem comes when you start stacking them. 

The problem with Sandeep if I understood you correctly is that he doesn’t give you any reason to choose other Arcanist masters. You replied to me (in this thread or the other one) that you felt that you probably would have done as well in recent tournaments with other masters if Sandeep wasn’t a universally good pick. That doesn’t seem like it demands significant nerfing. 

I think I would have done as well as, without wanting to sound arrogant, I think am a fairly good player who can pick up most things and succeed and have proven this without Sandeep. But it is certainly a much tougher challenge without him.

Most tournament I attend I don't run Arcanists as it is not very fun for new opponents to get beaten 10-0 by Sandeep, which reliably would happen until top tables are reached. And it's not very fun for me either.

But this is not about me, this is about Sandeep. He is too good in his current state. At the Welsh GT this weekend there were 4 Arcanist players, 3 of which I know for a fact ran Sandeep across their games. I cannot account for the fourth as I did not see who they were running, but I suspect it was the same. That alone should tell you there is a problem with him competitively 

2 hours ago, WWHSD said:

If you were already summoning the  Gamin, having Arcane Storm as a  is now dropping you to a straight flip if the target has cover. Even with the bonus from the Gamin you're at a on the damage flip if it was hard cover. Having a crap model engage Sandeep would make him either need to deal with that model or move away to attack the target that he wanted to. Arcane Storm becomes a much less useful action to borrow. It seems like most of the time I have a model Beacon Arcane Storm they are either engaged, attacking something engaged, or attacking a model in cover. It cuts down on the number of models that would be able to use it to trigger Student of All. Arcane Storm being a  gives Sandeep's opponents something else they can use to get Sandeep reacting to them instead of doing whatever it is that he wants to do. 

There's only so much useful model moving Sandeep can do since he pushes models directly towards him and with his cap on summoning I find that in the turns after the first Sandeep is typically only able to summon 0-1 models.  

Yes, the projectile drops you to a straight flip in cover.

Yes, this means a negative damage flip for hard cover.

Yes, Sandeep or another model will need to deal with enemy engagements.

Yes, arcane storm will be less useful to borrow and harder to pull off.

Yes, student of all will be harder to pull off (though an oxfordian next to an academic can still copy anything and have a tome in their duel, so not really)

Yes, sandeep might need to move before he moves models around but he has near the best place in the game as a (0).

None of these proposed changes are going  to make Sandeep unplayable or bad, it will just mean that slightly more resources, thoughtful target selection and careful positioning will be required which I promise you is very very necessary.

And I disagree that Sandeep is summoning 0-1 models. You will usually have one good mask and be able to spend a soulstone to get two models out in the first turn no problem, if the situation demands it. Heck, spend two stones if the situation demands and save your mask for models to copy the place.

20 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Nerfing Beacon in any meaningful way combined with making Arcane Storm a projectile attack would amount to a huge nerf to Sandeep. Far above what would be needed to bring him in line with the other top Arcanist masters.

I suspect that Arcane Storm not being a projectile attack is a much bigger deal than most people think.

Nah this is just not true. 

If a player is reliant on arcane storm to make the game a success then they will just need to adapt their play style, which should be easy enough. Perhaps using commands to get +ve to attacks, perhaps using sandeeps long forgotten Gada, perhaps not using it at all and using sandeep for other things just as moving models or summoning. Or maybe just targeting models out in the open.

The biggest and most broken power is the beacon and that needs looking at. It should still exist but not in its current state. 

31 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

It seems like if the only problem with Sandeep is that he doesn’t give you a reason to play any other masters he’d need to be catching heavy enough nerfs that there will usually be a master in any given situation that would be a better choice. If that were to happen it seems like he’d more or less knocked out of rotation.

This is a discussion for the other thread. He just needs to be dropped to a point where he is not an autotake for everything. A projectile added to arcane storm and making beacon slightly harder to pull off will not knock Sandeep out of rotation.

21 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

 

I think that the whole “copying a masters action should be hard to achieve” is kind of built in with Sandeep. Overall, his actions don’t tend to be as powerful as those of other masters. It’s the ability for his crew to use those actions that make them powerful.

I do think a lot of the ranged attacks in the game that aren’t projectile attacks could stand to be made into projectile attacks. I do feeling that if that was done to Arcane Storm it would have a much bigger impact to Sandeep’s performance than it would seem at first. Sandeep and his crew will be spending more AP to get into position for good shots and doing other things to mitigate the negatives of Arcane Storm being a projectile attack.

If you are saying beacon is fine, I just plain disagree. 

7 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

So is it the case that Sandeep is overpowered and that you are placing above where you should because you played him or that the other Arcanist masters don’t put you on an even footing against the competition?

Sandeep is overpowered because he is consistently churning out results in every scenario he is placed into.

I would like to think I would still be #2 in the UK & best Arcanist even if he didn't exist as I'd find a way with the other masters, which I did prior to his release. But currently there is no reason, competitively, to run anything else so I can't really answer the first point.

There is easily at least one Arcanist master that is on an equal footing with most other masters in the game, except possibly Nicodem and Zipp (maybe Nellie and Kirai?) in my opinion.

I'd like to echo AJ's thoughts

Masterfully run, friendly and relaxed in a great venue with amazing loot supports for all. Everyone was at ease all weekend, new and experienced players alike, and it's easily one of my favourite Faux events I've been to across my two years in the scene. Gutted we werern't in the city centre for a night out Saturday twitter pics looked great fun. Looking forward to next year. Cheers Luke & Martin for a wonderful weekend.

I'm gonna try to keep it short and sweet.

I back my thoughts up as the UK meta's #2 ranked player (behind Jamie Varney & his Nicodem) and best in faction Arcanist for around the past 20 months (though others have held it briefly during this time). I nearly always run Sandeep when playing Arcanists competitively. I genuinely believe he is the best option in every situation (except possibly public ex, raspy).

I have had a few ideas for a while but not really found the forum to air them. I think these small changes would bring him into line in a fairer way, though it may need some playtesting

I think arcane storm needs a projectile this seems to be the big one... 2/4/5 CA dmg that doesn't randomise and ignores cover is ridiculous and too aggressive. Alternatively change to 2/3/4 dmg.

Beacon could be once per activation.

Beacon should accessible by academics and gamin only.

Beacon should also raise the target number of actions to by 1. This will put it akin to master obeys needing a 7 to succeed. You could even push the TN up by 2 or 3 so an 8 or 9 is needed to succeed. Copying a masters action should be difficult to do. This won't make arcane storm and Mind among the senses  "uncopyable " against opponents as the CA is the same but reduces the number of cards the crew has access to to succeed with the copying. 

I would like to hear anyone else's thoughts. I think the number one complaint I hear about Sandeep is that he can always react to whatever situation he is put in and everything in the crew is doing whatever is needed at exactly the right time. From my experience, making beacon harder to achieve will go someway to finding a sensible balance.

EDIT: Oxfordian Mages also need to return to 6SS, but should keep the reduction part of temporal shield.

18 hours ago, Da Git said:

I was thinking this too. Instead of changing the mages, remove one of the abilities from Temporary shielding. Either:

Rename it Uni (not college or frat since Oxford is British) Mates and just have the -1ss cost when taken in 3s.

Or (I like this option much better) 

Just remove the -1ss cost. It's still a free upgrade for kinda two extra wounds at the cost of a card. 

This would return them to 18ss for all three, naturally giving players less incentive to run all three (which I see as very good for the game). You might actually see just a solo or even a double mage in lists opening up crew building options and increasing the variety of lists seen rather than just having a 15ss clump of auto-take. 

Would you still take mages at 6ss with Temporary Shielding but no -1ss?

Yes 100% I would still hire mages every game with sandeep. But actually, only two at certain times to give the crew more flexibility.

PS: further to the "nerf Sandeep" stats, since the post earlier in the thread I've run (almost) solo sandeep at two further events and placed 2nd/42 (lost on VP diff after narrow win vs uk master) & 3rd/30 (lost to Varney's Nico, low V diff from narrow wins with Colette). There is huge disparity between running sandeep and any other Arcanist master and I really dislike it.

On 30/03/2018 at 1:42 AM, shakes1066 said:

So the current UK master will be joining us, welcome on board Lucas

Who?😂

13 hours ago, Franchute said:

Sandeep is certainly good, but let's look at other facts: UK number 1 plays Nicodem and US number 1 mostly plays Collodi. After having a quick look at the Polish ranking, it seems that the first arcanist is ranked 4th. 

"The best player in the USA and the U.K. don't use Sandeep therefore he isn't broken"

Im not sure I subscribe to this as a valid argument... 

3 hours ago, Ceodoc said:

Hi Fanteegi,

Paypal/pools are not available in the channel islands-outside the EU (chuckle @ 'out'ers) can you advise another payment method please?

Ty

 

If you're unable to use PayPal perhaps you could bank transfer?