whodares

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Firstly you have no way to even contest Show of Force. I would drop the Doppleganger for upgrades on Teddy and WW, and drop Aether Connection on Dreamer, he shouldn't be getting damaged in the first place.


On another note, I would actually prefer shooting dreamer in this scheme pool. It encourages grouping up which between Dreamer's paralyze trigger on his base card if a model has Wp 4 or less(daydreams and WW can easily get them to this), and Surround By Nightmares in a small area is going to be doing a lot of work.

What upgrades would you be getting on Teddy and WIdow Weaver then? I feel that Fears Given Form will be a decent upgrade to go for, but don't feel like taking Handbag. The Teddy summon can be cute, but doesn't feel too realistic. For Teddy maybe it's a toss-up between Malifaux Provides, Retribution's Eye and On Dreaming Wings.

I've decided to go Summoning Dreamer due to the fact that I can run the schemes rather easily while still having a decent effect. The paralyze trigger is on his default attack, so I don't need an upgrade for that. This game is all about the VP after all and I feel like Shooting Dreamer doesn't have the scheme pool he needs to really shine here.

Not to mention Extraction can be cheesed with a summoner if you use the summoner last and plop up an extra 2 models which net you control of the objective and let it move up to 3 inches.

I currently don't have that much "real" experience with Dreamer so I figured I might as well ask all the gods here for some help.

The setup:

Flank Deployment

Extraction

Claim Jump

Dig Their Graves

Leave Your Mark

Show Of Force

Tail'em

I'll be playing Dreamer vs Guild.

My idea of a crew right now:

5 Soulstones

Dreamer (Dreams of Pain, Otherworldly, Aether Connection)

Daydream x3

Widow Weaver (Godlike on Extraction imo)

Teddy (Web Marker stacking close to a Teddy helps him get his 0 off)

Coppelius (scheme runner with some alp summon option for more scheme stuff)

Doppleganger (second scheme runner with a possibility of becoming a second Teddy, Lelu, Lilitu, ...)

My game plan:

I would go for Claim Jump with Leave Your Mark. Tail'em can be easily denied and Show of Force is not something I feel Neverborn can challenge Guild on. Since a summoner also requires a decent amount of soulstones, I feel like I hit a pretty decent spot here. I'm not completely convinced with hiring Coppelius as he's not getting an upgrade and the Doppleganger also feels rather iffy. I'd be bringing in Lelu and Lilitu rather soon so I can lure his models with upgrades to my Teddy so I can stop him from scoring on Show of Force or lure his scheme runners to stop him from getting Leave Your Mark or Claim Jump.

The problem:

I feel like 5 stones might be limiting me a bit too much since Summoning Dreamer got cuddled on the Daydreams. I feel like replacing COppelius with something cheaper might be the way to go, but I'm not sure on what to get then.

How would you run these schemes and strats vs Guild and why? Any insight will be greatly appreciated!

11 hours ago, ringsnake said:

I have played more of Lynch than anything, and his new Limited is fun, possibly even terrifying. He just dumps a mask, and drops brilliance all around him. We're going to see a lot of people load up Lynch with Cheating Bastard, Woke Up with a Hand, and Wanna See a Trick. I always had the 'problem' of killing models as they're getting brilliance, which stopped me from making any real use of Huggy's Heed my Voice.

I still find it hard to give up Rising Sun due to the amount of resources Huggy can tie up like that. I had no real problem blowing up 2 models per turn before and getting the second and third coming of Huggy dissuaded my opponent from really going after it.

Don't get me wrong, I like the new upgrade for Lynch, but I just wish it wasn't Limited. I don't see any competitive build beind able to go toe-to-toe with Rising Sun due to getting Huggy back at the end of the Turn via Lynch boomstick. Even if it wasn't Limited, I would still be hard-pressed to swap it our for Wanna See a Trick or Woke Up With A Hand. The current combo for Lynch is just too good and soon he'll get Gwynneth Maddox as well for more card tricks and Brilliance spread. Don't forget Brilliance only works well if you have enough models to actually use it.

Though perhaps this may bring back more thematic lists for him that become stronger. Time will tell, but so far there is no real reason for me to take that upgrade over anything he has right now.

On 18-8-2017 at 3:04 PM, Adran said:

--snip--

Thanks for the explanation of why you see it is good. Some of the things you see as downsides of Summoning are something I see as upside of him though

On 18-8-2017 at 3:04 PM, Adran said:

Firstly, its partially a mental step. If you've spent a large number of points on the ability to summon, then you feel you need to summon. So you typically reserve high cards and stones to allow you to get your summons off. You're also typically just hiding Dreamer away, so get little use from Chompy, and you often lose the tempo because you need the hires to stay near Dreamer to begin with to heal up.

This is true. I prefer to keep The Dreamer safe and away from the fights. I do want to counter the "little use from Chompy". Nobody said I can't use chompy to go crazy on a model if I see the time is ripe for it. You can also use Chompy as a powerful repositioning tool as you can get 2 chompy activations if you don't use him up straight away.

Keeping high cards might not be that accurate after turn 2 as well. I'm usually not taking Tannen with me, so I don't have to hold on the Red Joker or 13 of Masks. This only leaves Lelu, Lilitu and Coppelius as "real" high card summons. Stitched is borderline high, but I have found a love for the Bandersnatch lately. Thanks to Bandersnatch, it becomes really easy to keep your activation advantage as he becomes buried. So holding onto a 9 and/or 10 for Stitched doesn't sound too bad.

On 18-8-2017 at 3:04 PM, Adran said:

Patrtially its my play style, but I am happy to trade 1 of my opponents master AP (And high card) on a summon, with one of my AP from almost anywhere to remove that summon. 

I don't mind that either. The way I play The Dreamer is more like attrition warfare than anything else. If you use that 1 (or 2 if you get unlucky) AP on getting rid of my summon, that's AP not being spent on getting VP, holding me back properly or going after my real threats. I like it when people hit on that 2hp stitched and need an entire activation due to HtK on him. It allows me to keep the activation advantage even harder and even lets me go in with Chompy for some fast melee.

On 18-8-2017 at 3:04 PM, Adran said:

Typical advantages to Summoning dreamer - You don't need to actually hire a good crew, you plan on summoning to fill in gaps.-But if you don't spend your time trying to summon then you can be using the Dreamer Ap to have a primary effect on the enemy, rather than just the passive of summoning in more. You can hire a good crew and use Dreamer to support it. If you want chompy every turn, then you need to be playing shooty dreamer, even if you don't need to shoot every action., And Chompy can be a huge powerhouse as a free model each turn. 

My usual starting crew consists or Widow Weaver and 3 Daydreams. I also like taking a Teddy or some other big beatstick, but that is more dependant on schemes and strat. That leaves me with plenty of stones to get some more "strong" models and closing the activation gap on Turn 1. Well, unless I'm against Gremlins, that's a bit of a different setup with more small models to go for.

On 18-8-2017 at 3:04 PM, Adran said:

Because of the ease of adapting your list during the game, its easier to play Summoning,  you can cover your mistakes better. But if you don't make the mistakes in the first place, your extra hiring and AP will probably have a greater effect in the game.

But thats my opinion

In my opinion, the power that the Shooting Dreamer + LCB bring is not coming close to the power of out-activating as attritioning your opponent. Not making mistakes is impossible. Everyone makes mistakes. I feel like the Summoning Dreamer allows you to better bounce back from those mistakes than a Shooting Dreamer. If the Shooting Dreamer makes a mistake and loses an important model, you can almost call it game over. If thesame happens to Summoning, you just switch to Attrition style. Only other summoners can really keep attrition warfare in check and that is because they can also summon in new models.

But again, thanks for explaining it to me. I can see why you feel Shooting can be better than Summoning, but I think our playstyles are too different to have a real "clean" comparison.

On another note, how do you feel about the new upgrades? Incoming new Melee Dreamer playstyle?

Play Dreamer, he can do it all!

Shoot you in the face.

Punch you in the face.

Summon a Bandersnatch INSIDE your face.

(note, these are all mutually exclusive).

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I personally think "Shooting" Dreamer is the stronger dreamer, but is less adaptable so requires more thought to play well. 

I've heard it a few times already that some consider Shooting to be better. I haven't found any reason so far to actually believe it though.

Could you explain to me why you feel like he is the better one?

As Santa also said, I feel the lack of adaptability is the big weakness holding back Shooting from standing on par with Summoning.

There are always the schemes and strats that change and might give preference to the other playstyle, but I'm speaking in general terms right now. I don't see Shooting being a general equal or better choice than summoning right now, except on very specific scheme pools.

14 hours ago, Somnicide said:

I have the metal box but thanks for the heads up! Yeah summoning is always decent, extra AP wins games. I absolutely LOVE Asami because she has the different play styles she can do which makes her crazy flexible and keeps her interesting. I am hoping for the same with Dreamer.

As someone who came from Ten Thunders, let me warn you that The Dreamer and Asami are (in their current implementation of book 4) VERY DIFFFERENT.

While Asami always had a good solution by throwing a Yokai at something, The Dreamer has a different, more long-term type of summoning.

Due to the fact that The Dreamer's summons are here to stay, they start off with 1 wound and usually need 1-2 turns inside his aura before they are really ready to go out. There are exceptions to this (looking at you Lelu/Lilitu), but for the most part, this rings true.

What I've read so far from the upgrades sounds like a good buff for some of the other Dreamer playstyles. It will be hard to tell though, until I've seen the actual card with all the wording on it. The chain-activate from into/out of LCB sounds like something that could be awesome for summoning Dreamer as well.

15 hours ago, Somnicide said:

Thanks - hmmm wondering now if I should wait to start him. I completely forgot it was already August...

If you want to order him, I wouldn't wait too long. I've been waiting for mine for 3 months already with no set date in sight yet.

Summoning Dreamer will always be a good master, so you can't go wrong with that.

Shooting Dreamer is something I haven't seen yet, but I feel like that can be very meta- and matchup-dependant.

If Shooting changes with the new cards, that can only be a buff, because almost nobody plays him that way (that I've seen).

As a player invested into Ten Thunders and now branching into Neverborn, I'd like an answer on the following question: which playstyle are you looking for?

Neverborn are in general not that special when it comes to movement, save a few models. Ten Thunders on the other hand take it to the next level as their entire faction is based around movement and pushes.

If you are undecided on the playstyle, I would suggest the following models:

Neverborn

• Beckoners: You can bring these as well into the Thunders with Lynch thanks to his "Darkened" ability. They do not push like the Thunders do, but they instead lure models to you. Nothing more fun than using 2 lures into a fast Hungering Darkness (Huggy) to rip them a new one.
• Stitched Together: can also go in the Thunders thanks to Lynch. They are high-risk, high-reward though and need a bit of experience on when to use them properly. I find them stronger in Neverborn due to Neverborn having more nasty things that can burn the opponents hand than the Thunders do.
• Doppleganger: works with every Neverborn master and can be considered a staple in several crews. I don't have this model yet, but being able to cheat Initiative with Lynch can be rather frightening. First-activating lynch and blasting the opponent for 6 damage can catch people off-guard and cripple them severly.

Ten Thunders

• Ten Thunders Brothers: Probably the best all-round model in the entire faction. It only lacks damage, but can be an incredible tarpit for only 5 soulstones. It can also complete Claim Jump solo if you get the trigger on his (0) action. Rather easy though, as Lynch can let you keep the ace forever.
• Shadow Emissary: his (0) action could give a potential card draw and Lynch loves extra cards in his hand. Can also discard an ace (and get it back, thx Lynch) to start with Focussed +2, so 1 attack will hit and do a nice amount of damage. He has a (1) action that pushes and gives fast, but this is only to a model with an upgrade that costs more than 0 stones. I have felt this as rather limiting, but YMMV.
• Shenlong's box for Sensei Yu: pushbot 9000 giving fast. Unlike the Emissary, he can give it to anyone and push a model up to 12" in a single turn AND give it fast as well. He does lack offense, which the Emissary ha a lot more of.
• Samurai: I've not used these guys as I don't have them, but they allow Lynch to clear the deck crazy fast and get those aces in his hand. Their damage is also respectable, but their main draw in Lynch is a card cycling mechanic

Now some more about Dreamer and Titania.

Dreamer

I haven't played Dreamer yet (sold out in all stores), but I have read up a lot about him and practiced some shadow-matches proxied against my other crews. It would be fair to say that the Dreamer is still one of the top masters of Neverborn. You can bring only him and his models (big list) to a tournament and expect to do well. This is due to him being a summoning master which allows him to be more forgiving. Got a model killed? Summon another one. Dreamer becomes stronger the longer the game goes on as he almost auto-wins a war of attrition. Even if the opponent kills 2 models per turn and you kill 1, you can just sommon back 2 models each turn and get an activation profit of +1 just for playing Dreamer. Starting turn 3, you will almost guaranteed out-activate your opponent, which opens up a window for a whole lot of pain and misery.

So what is the downside to getting the Dreamer? The main one is the cost in $$$. As he is a summoning master, you will need his summons to get the most out of him. Getting most of them could cost you close to thesame as getting 2 different crews completely. The other downside is that he does require some careful positioning and perhaps some game experience. I do think downside 2 is less of a worry for you as you already have some experience with Lynch.

Titania

My friend has Titania and I will say she also feels like a top master in the right hands, but not at thesame level as Dreamer. Titania thrives on schemes and strats the require a small area of the board so she can litter it with scheme markers and bring the pain that way. She has the 3 Autumn Knights in her box, which are pretty fantastic for their cost, reaching even Illuminated standards. Do note Illuminated are probably still a better fit for Lynch, unless you're planning on running Rougarou + Tooth combo. Then again, any crew can run that combo.

Combining crews

You also asked how well these crews can be combined. Unfortunately, most Neverborn masters are rather stand-alone. You probably won't mix any of their crews, unless you can find some sort of cheesy combo such as Rougarou + Tooth. The Dreamer works mainly with his nightmares, but his starting crew can be whatever he wants to feel safe enough to start his summoning spree on Turn 1. I don't really know how well Titania mixes and matches, but I also feel she works best with at least 1-2 Autumn Knight(s) and perhaps the Emissary for even more zone control.

I do hope some more experienced Neverborn players chime in on this as I've mostly played Ten Thunders and only recently started to switch to "The Dark Side".

Since no store seems to have a dreamer crew + extra's such as Widow Weaver, ..., I've decided to look at my second-liked master in Neverborn: Collodi.

Models I have right now:

• Stitched Together
• Beckoners
• Jakob Lynch box
• Brutal Effigy

What would you say I need to get more for a decend working crew at 50SS?

I have noted the following

• Collodi box (obviously)
• Arcane Effigy
• Coryphee

Anything else?

Perhaps a Bunraku? Not sure when you would take a Bunraku over Coryphee though

I'm not a big fan of Expert Cheater to be honest. I like his ace discarding too much to finish off something that survives the big gun!

You don't really have variation with your crew right now, so I would suggest getting the following:

- beckoner: lures models to her and can give out brilliance. She can also stop the opponent from taking Interact Actions within her LoS if they have Brilliance on them. Really strong!

-Lelu/Lilitu: You basicly buy this for Lilitu as her Lure has ca7 vs the ca6 from the Beckoner. She does cost 1SS more, so I would start with the Beckoner to keep it more in Lynch's theme.

-a beater like Teddy: On your list, you can get a lot of stuff done on this list, but bringing a Teddy puts a big bullseye on his head. He packs a serious punch and is not reliant on Brilliance in order to do so. Give him Retribution's Eye and you have a big beatstick that can ignore armor. Combine that with a Rising Sun Huggy (Hungering Darkness) and you will have 2 powerful beatsticks together with Lynch.

- A scheme runner such as Silurid: Your crew is fairly slow and you will have a hard time doing schemes like Breakthrough. A Silurid can jump out of engagements and is fairly annoying to take down.

Hope this helps!

I'm guessing his trigger doesn't work if he attacks himself, seeing as a model can't attack itself?

I've been looking at Bandersnatch with my Dreamer, but I can't seem to find info on 2 things:

1) Can he attack the model he has his Shadow Lair upgrade on? I know he can draw LoS and Range from it, but can he actually attack said model? Part of me thinks yes, because a model has vision on itself. Then again, it is worded in a way it brings doubt to me.

2) Can a buried Bandersnatch place down scheme markers? I'd say no, but then again ...

It depends on the playstyle. If you like pushing your models to the enemy, go for ten thunders. If you like luring the enemy to you, go with neverborn.

The Thunders have Sensei Yu, which makes Mulligan crazy good for a 0 action. You can cycle up to 6 cards in a turn from just Lynch's and Yu's Mulligan. Yu is also pushbot 9000, so you can feel better throwing Huggy in the face on turn 1.

@Ludvig also mentioned the Samurai and the Brothers. The brothers are already a strong 5ss model and lynch pushes it up to 11. You can get the preferred stance as long as you have the ace for free and then go defensive for free. Armor 1 Df7 models are fairly hard to take down

So what do the neverborn offer? They can offer you a better lure and some more things the lure triggers, such as pounce. You can bring Lilitu as opposed to a beckoner and get a Ca 7 lure instead of a ca6. As a player, you should know by now how powerful a 7 attack is. If you then bring Lelu with you, you can lure into his pounce so that 1 AP lure becomes a 2 AP or possibly 3 AP action (if Lelu activated already and gave his condition for free pounce).

Neverborn are just more tricky to play against in general and will make your opponents life hell with all the wp-based horror duels. An illuminated's Terrifying 10 is pretty lame and gimmicky, but drop 2 web markers from Widow weaver and suddenly they have -2 wp to resist. Or you can go for a teddy who has default Terrifying 13, so that's guaranteed to burn a card in your opponents hand.

Got a map with small corridors or an area the opponent must go to? Bring the Emissary and lay down Hazardous Terrain there. You want to go there? Take a high walk duel or suffer 1/4/5 damage.

I could go on, but this is just to show you that I find neither "inferior" towards the other. It's just a preference of playstyle.

Best summon is Yokai, the next best one will probably be the Oni. Unless you need to tie up models, then Jorogumo might be better.

I never use Amanjaku as I feel he's just bad. The +1 Flicker sounds nice, but need a 9 in a crew that already uses plenty of high cards. My advice would be going with Kamaitachi as totem and combo it with the Terracotta Warriors. The changed upgrade model will get a free push, heal AND card draw. Really nice!

I usually take Yasunori (proxy) in my crew as he can really make things ridiculous. Having Bettari with Asami on one side and Yasunori on the other makes the opponent also bring plenty of stones to the Yasunori side. Unless you get unlucky, he WILL get those 4 attacks off.

I really like the Ten Thunders Brother as well due to his power for scheme marker schemes or just tarpitting models that don't have a Ca action. Defense 7 with + is pretty hard to take down.

Some early thoughts of mine for you, hope they help.

1 hour ago, Thana. said:

@whodares

First question: On the fence about hiring lelu in a starting crew, it's true that he's a decent bit better with his 0ss upgrade but he's also competing against other hiring options that imo, outclass him a bit. 

Third question: I think the NB emissary is weak for his cost and wouldn't recommend hiring him in any crew. If I was to hire him in a summoning dreamer crew I'd take the mysterious conflux because + flips to stitched together duels is better than everything on conflux of nightmare.  

Bonus Question: I think your core build is alright, I'll be upfront and say I don't love coppelius with on dreaming wings (or at all). 10ss for a min damage 1, 2 ap, squishy model is (imo) highway robbery, even if said model has walk 8 and flight. Some people do like him so I'd try him out and see how he works for you. What I found was that people would put a stronger, usually cheaper model on his flank and just kill him before he can accomplish much. Stuff like miranda and francois will go through coppelius like butter and have no trouble matching his speed either. I also think you're overestimating the value of flight on alps. They only have flight while within 6" of coppelius, can't charge and come in slow so they're mostly just going to walk the turn they come in and then the next turn double walk somewhere to be annoying by which time they'll likely be well outside of the flight aura. 

What do you feel "outclasses" Lelu, veen with the def upgrade? I feel like he looks fairly strong. Otoh he can be summoned, so that's a factor I can't ignore.

NB Emissary is fairly strong in my opinion as he can plop down hazardous Terrain, remove conditions and summon changelings as well. He doesn't have huge damage, but I feel his utility is well worth it.

It's going to be a toss-up between the Dreamer upgrade and the default upgrade. It depends on whether or not you feel like using Chompy for some quick damage or not. I feel like it could be good to burst down a model that gets too close. Then again, I haven't played Dreamer yet, so I'm taking all the advice that I can.

Coppelius will indeed be something I will enjoy trying out. I feel like he can be a very strong model if he can get some eyeballs going and tough to take down if he gets them. I'll order them soon and see how they play.

1 hour ago, katadder said:

my 2 rougarou and the tooth

*triggered*

You monster!

For bonus points bring the Emissary with the default Conflux for extra + flips on all those attacks ^^

If you're already spending 21 stones for such a combo, you might as well go all-out on it

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

@whodares sounds like you should come hang on the guild boards. Lots of min damage 5 and few pushes ompared to others.

I noticed a lot of damage when I played against Lady J :'(

I like dealing damage, not taking damage

8 hours ago, Mutter said:

This.

It really is a testament to the patience of this board that people still try to answer the OP after what, 5 pages? I gave up on the first ...

Kudos to anybody who's still trying to help.

I would take this as valid criticism if your only post in the topic wasn't just filled with "where to start" and then propose to bring 2 LRM in a single crew...

As for the rest I've already said I'm going to be playing Neverborn. I gave my view on a Lynch crew opposed to a crew on the Thunders side. It shows that the Thunders prefer to move towards things themselves instead of moving things towards themselves.

9 hours ago, Eclipse said:

To answer the question posed as a title for this thread:
Play Ten Thunders because you enjoy the faction.
Play Ten Thunders because you like the look and/or feel of (most of) the models.
Play Ten Thunders because you enjoy having a great deal of pushes, healing, condition removal and  flips.
Finally, play Ten Thunders only if the above is at least mostly true. It is better to take a rest from Thunders if don't enjoy your games with them anymore, or if you are feeling more extreme - it's better to outright switch factions. Regardless, all the decisions are yours.

For me the process worked the other way around - when starting I picked my first box only based on the artstyle. I was choosing between Lynch, Misaki and Yan Lo with a consideration for Pandora (Sorrows!) in this order. I picked Lynch after learning that I can expand into Thunders later if I want to. However, I really liked the Neverborn look and feel so I stuck to them for quite a while. It wasn't until a guy decided to sell his McGabe, Fuhatsu and Samurai that I remembered how much I liked the faction. McGabe did not click with me, but Fuhatsu and the Samurai did - crazy-silly gun-toting card-flipping action. Then I looked at the other Masters and models and upgrades and I -knew- this was the faction. After that my Thunders collection quickly became even bigger then the Neverborn one and I gradually lost interest in playing as anything other than Thunders, even going so far as to stop playing my favorite Master, Lucius.

With Thunders I find that I am having fun almost always, regardless of winning or losing - usually whatever I do with them feels just right and so I don't get stressed when playing them.
Of course, having a positive attitude, a change of scenery (opponents/crews), and/or a short rest from burn-out always help as well

While I do enjoy some aspects of the faction, I feel the faction itself is lacking in a certain way. The only thing the Thunders have going for them compared to the other factions is that they have more mobility. Well, it depends on what type of mobility if you see Lure as mobility as well.

I do like the Asian look of the models and this is what originally drew me to them. I made the mistake of starting with Shenlong, waaayyyyy too complex for a person new to wargaming.

Can't really argue with that. While we have easier ways of pushes, healing, condition removal, my playstyle prefers to deal a ton of damage instead of having the healing option. There's not much to heal if it's dead. There's not much to scheme if it's dead.

Not sure on how Thunders have easier access to + flips outside of a Shenlong crew and therefore sacrificing a 0-action of themselves. While many masters and their crew have access to + flips, most of those masters are also available in other factions. I'll agree with you if you meant that we have the highest concentration of possible crews that have access to + flips. Pretty much every Thunders crew can and will get + flips, which is in stark contrast with the other factions. The downside to all those extra + flips is that our faction has a low minimum damage as average and they really need those + flips to really be able to compete with other factions when it comes to damage. I'm not saying all our models have low damage, but most of them do.

And I'll repeat again, I'm switching to neverborn so I hope I can find out what I'm missing out on by not playing the Thunders or what possible strengths I've been overlooking or miscrediting.

24 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Within 8" you lure them close for pounce. Then you hit with the (1) attack pushing it a millimeter for another pounce. Hit again and push a millimeter for another pounce. Haven't doublechecked the card but if the push on the normal attack is "up to X" that should be totally legit.

That's what happened to me in that game, so I'm pretty sure that's legit.

41 minutes ago, katadder said:

Couple of things reading through all this - 

mention of tooth and rougarou combining for multiple attacks but this only works if the model moves and ends that move within melee range. so surely should only get 1 pounce as after the first push you are probably in base contact with her.

using the gorar - as a titania player myself and seeing some in action I have yet to use/see the gorar as its really crap and dies so easily its daft, all for the chance of maybe getting a model back.

Tooth has a (0) action Lure that has the model ending as close to her as possible. Then her normal (1) attack actions have a built-in push. You can push the opposing model for 1mm and get the Rougarou pounce again.

Depending on your crew, I find the Gorar to be worth his points. If the terain is right, you WILL get your precious minion back. He's no Huggy, but he can be powerful in his own right.

Then again, I'm only now really starting to branch out into Neverborn, so I might not see the big picture yet.

57 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Relying too heavily on lures can screw you over. If it was always amazing we'd see more skew towards that kind of list. The neverborn lists you propose seem sort of glass-cannony to me.

Yes, my core list is fairly glass cannon. That's what the other models are for after all.

If you bring 2 illuminated, the list becomes a lot more durable while staying in theme with Lynch as well.

There's a lot of options available if you need tanky models on both factions.

16 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

Lynch may melt 1-2 models a turn, like any other killy master, but what makes Lynch so good is that his constant sifting for higher hands leaves his entire crew in a position to do so. He lets you be incredibly consistent, especially if you know how to make use of the extra high and low cards you're getting, and with Yu's perfect positioning you can make any model in a 10 inch radius be exactly where it wants to be hitting precisely as hard as you need to. I've seen him played in Neverborn and he feels far more dynamic in TT, especially in the types of crew you can take.

He, Huggy, any other beatsticks you might want to bring (I like playing him very elite) - they're this wall of danger like you've described Teddy+tooth&friends but so much worse, since TT will give Lynch aces and aces give TT unparalleled consistency. I once ran through about 30 cards on one activation with Yasunori - the sheer amount of flips you can make TT churn out allow you to in turn fuel Lynch as a powerhouse, who just by existing fuels his crew again. Honestly, Lynch is just about my favourite master. I can't rave enough about him. He enables so many things and more importantly allows you to excel at them. Not to mention - he is fun. So much fun.

Also with Yu putting the Aces back in your deck I often find myself drawing 1 or 2 after that (since I have a habbit of going through my deck at least once a round). Lynch's really just the best master to play if you've got hangups about luck.

I agree with you. TT Lynch is very consistent thanks to Sensei Yu copying his Mulligan. Do note this dependency might force you to activate Yu earlier than expected and can bring their own share of problems.

The thing that makes Neverborn Lynch more dangerous in my opinion, is the fact that they have more and better lures combined with pounces. Yes, you can get a Thunders beatstick and make Huggy obey the opponents model to walk next to him. Now your model activates and that threat is gone for the turn. With the better lures in Neverborn, you can combo those with a Rougarou or Lelu and keep pouncing on those things. Bonus points if Lilitu is the one luring as she will get pounce as well from Lelu on a 4'!!! range. You can also lure 2 models towards you and set them up for death as the hands of Lynch and/or Huggy more easily. While also doable in Ten Thunders, I do feel the beckoners are inferior to what the Neverborn faction has to offer in this regard.

Going through your entire deck can also have it's downsides. You'll get more black and red jokers. Nobody likes getting a black joker. Red joker can be great, but should not be depended upon for getting things done. You have the mulligan to get more high cards, but that usually means you'll have to cheat more as well. At least you get more control on when/what to force, which is very powerful.

But again, I agree with you that Lynch is not a bad master. While I feel the Thunders allow him to be used more broadly, I also feel that it limits his power a bit on what he can achieve. The pushes and positioning are strong thanks to Yu, but you could just as easily get lured away due to being too far ahead. In Neverborn, you don't even have to move Lynch, you can just bring the models to you! This might be less of a problem when you are a more experienced player ofcourse. I've only been playing for a year, so that might also have to do with it.

1 hour ago, skoatz said:

I was talking about getting high value cards, not a high number of cards.  Although I did mention it right after talking about hand size so I see the confusion.  I know the cards that Sensei Yu discards get shuffled back in.

Ah, alright. I thought you were trying to double-dip in getting both the new cards and the possible discarded aces

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

You were comolaining about having bad hands earlier and that crew should get some pretty crazy hands from double mulligans.

Lady J would need to get pretty close so unless they really handed them away by putting the twins next to one another she would be less effective. She also doesn't get pushes, fast or recalled training.

Her onslaught is also kind of a trap since neither attack will get to declare crit strike so you effectively need to cheat to hit an extra time to do very little extra damage compared to just critting the first hit (and you probably need to stone for a suit so why not make tht suit a ram). It could be useful if it was on her card to begin with but 2ss and an upgrade is way to high a cost unless your opponent let's you know they'll be using exclusively hard to kill models.

LJ rant over

Thanks to the Brutal Emissary, Lady J now has her free train to the other side completely protected. That should help her get into such a good position.

Onslaught on an ml7 has a very high chance of hitting, especially against the def 5 Lelu (unless he took his upgrade). I only mentioned the Onslaught in case you didn't want to cheat a high card for the trigger.

32 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Dual faction masters are often designed to have different strengths in different factions. The thunders have more ways to get use of his card tricks like discarding aces with wastrels or thunder brothers as well as other models who get bonuses defensive stance or other discard effects. Rail workers are pretty sweet when they can discard for positives a lot. The stitched card draw action also gets kinda sick when you discard an ace to pick it back up so you get 3 (or is it 4 with the trigger?) cards.

As a player who decides on a master and try to make them work in pools that seem to really go against their preferred play style I may come at this from the wrong angle.

Neverborn are kind of crummy when it comes to wp so he should get mileage out of his horror against them.

I agree. Having at least one TTB is a staple for my Lynch crew in Ten Thunders because of the card trick with the aces. Really crazy!

It makes sense that Neverborn are weak to Terrifying as have a lot of Terrifying themselves. Can't both protect against and deal the things at thesame time.

22 minutes ago, skoatz said:

In Neverborn, Lynch supports his crew.  In Ten Thunders, the crew supports Lynch.  Two completely different styles and different crew selection.  I think Beckoners are a bad choice in TT Lynch crews, but they're a great choice in Neverborn.  If you play TT Lynch like you would in Neverborn, you're going to have a bad time.

My Lynch crews have little to no terrifying (besides Huggy and the one illuminated I occasionally take).  I don't think you need to take a lot of terrifying models in a Lynch crew to be effective.  In fact, I would say if you're doing that, you're building the wrong crew.  

Lynch does not need lure in TT at all.  Sensei Yu gets him wherever he needs to be and gives him fast to boot.

Lynch can kill both Lelu and Lilitu in one activation.  All he needs is 3 AP and to be within 6" of one and 8" of the other.  Let's assume Lelu is within 6" and Lilitu is within 8".  Lynch has Woke up with a Hand and 52 Card Pickup.  I almost always have at least 3 aces by the end of the turn, and Lynch typically goes last for 2 more cards.  It's quite common for me to have 8-10 cards in my hand by the end of the turn.  Getting high cards is super easy because Sensei Yu can copy Mulligan and then Lynch can Mulligan again.

1. Play for Blood with Lelu, give Lelu brilliance.  Lelu is at 6 wounds.

2. Play for Blood with Lilitu, give Lilitu brilliance.  Lilitu is at 5 wounds.

3. Final Debt Lilitu, and kill her.

At the end of Lynch's activation, he discards 3 aces via 52 Card Pickup and deals 6 damage to Lelu to kill him.  It requires good positioning, but again with Sensei Yu, it's pretty easy.  Even if he's not quite in position, give him fast and he can walk once to get where he needs to.  

I'd rather pull models to me than to push my master to the enemy crew. It can force some rather awkward situations and mispositioning. The beckoner also takes away the dependency on Huggy to do the luring, so he becomes free to go harder and deal more damage.

My Ten Thunders Lynch crew consists of the following

Lynch (Woke Up With A Hand, Wanna See A Trick and Huggy upgrade I feel like playing that game

Huggy (sometimes with Recalled Training)

Beckoner or Sensei Yu with Wandering River Style: Do I want them to come to me, do I need more Brilliance spead? Beckoner Do I want a Fast Alpha Strike from Huggy? Yu

Ten Thunders Brother: this guy becomes amazing as soon as you get the Ace you want in your hand. Free defensive and 0 effect guaranteed

Your Mulligan trick is actually illegal. Cards that Sensei Yu would discard during his Disciple action get shuffled into the deck instead. Since the effect is no longer a discard, you can't pick them up with Lynch's ability.

Lynch can probably kill whatever is in the game if he has the right hand, the right positioning and enough aces in his hand. I've had matches where he blasts his opponent for 8 damage with Final Debt and had all 4 aces in my hand. It's a bit thesame as any killy master. They can blow up any model as long as the conditions are right.

Lady J can kill both of them as well in even less actions. Get Severe damage with the built-in critical strike trigger on het greatsword and hit the enemy for 7 damage (Lilitu). You can then do thesame for Lelu, maybe even burn a stone so your moderate damage is enough to kill him. Remember that with the right upgrade, you have the onslaught trigger as well so you can do 4 attacks on 2 models with ml7. You now still have an AP left to do whatever you want.

3 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

@whodares Had you tried Lynch? Lots of beefy models and lots of hard damage. You might enjoy his playstyle if you think the thunders just walz around and neverborn have better minions (since he brings over some of the filthiest neverborn filth in the form of illuminated and stitched together). He also has card tricks.

Lynch and the Dreamer are actually what sparked my interest in the Neverborn to begin with. I do have Lynch and played him a bit (pre-errata) and I agree he is a decent master.

Unfortunately I played him into Lady J with Death Marshals and Rasputina, so his crew lost a lot of defense due to the horror duel not mattering at all. Kind of hard to force a cheat if your opponent is immune to either horror duels or paralyze.

Now don't get me wrong, I really like Lynch. It's just that his best synergy models (beckoners, illuminated) don't really feel Ten Thunder like and a lot more Neverborn like. Since the only upgrade I ever got for the Thunders with Lynch (Huggy actually) was Recalled Training, I really felt like I was being forced into a certain role.

Since Lynch's crew is really boosted by the usage of Lure, I prefer not to be dependable on only the beckoners. While they are fantastic for their points, you can also get a Lilitu for thesame soulstone cost. Lilitu has +1 ca on her Lure and is also a lot more resilient than Beckoners. The downside to Lilitu is that she can't give out Brilliance like a Beckoner. At that point it becomes a matter of preference: Brilliance vs better lure and resilience.

What also works well with Lure is Pounce. Enter Lelu, Rougarou, ... If you take Lilitu, it makes Lelu a lot more attractive as well. Since conditions are shared between them, Lelu can give them both pounce for a 0 action and a card discard. Lilitu can give them both + flips to all duels. For 14 soulstones, they can and will hold that flank easily, unless you kill either of them quickly. And you will have to kill it in 1 activation, because else they will heal back up.

I could keep going, but my original thought was to just give you an example of why I feel like Lynch feels out of place in Ten Thunders. He might become more versatile when it comes to scheme marker schemes, but let's face it. You're not bringing Lynch for a scheme marker scheme. You're bringing him to make sure your opponent doesn't have any models to do his schemes with.