Filox

6 hours ago, Jinn said:

I think errata is much more necessary when low power models compound to create inefficient crews/keywords, which is what leads to problems in competitive play. It's mostly fine from a game health perspective to leave a lone model below the curve, though it truly sucks for the players who leave it on the shelf, but it becomes an issue when entire crews are left on the shelf because they cannot work together to compete. (I know some people will still choose to take Raspy in tournaments, they just won't win)

You may dislike errata, but they're going to happen to put strong models down because the competitive scene wouldn't tolerate the alternative. Why can't we lift some weak crews up while we're at it?

Alternatively, please hit us with those alternate Master cards Wyrd. Maybe there is game design space that allows an alternate Raspy card to simultaneously make Hoarcats, Ice Dancers, December Acolytes, and the Ice Golem all good somehow.

If for example, we would get alt Rasputina who is clearly stronger then the other, the main card would become alt and she would never be seen anymore. Opposit is also possible. 

7 minutes ago, Plaag said:

u dont need to expect any changes in rasputina keyword, but maybe wyrds will have more resourses in future,i hope we dont need to wait until 40k)

Well, yeah It' also a possibility we won't get any changes and maybe some OP enforcer in the future which will truly help Rasputina become top tier master. I just personally wouldn't like this approach 😕 

23 minutes ago, Harlekin said:

And about 1 per Keyword. So huge changes for 1 Keyword are not very likely.

Well, first Errata only touched the most broken models after a very short time of release so they didn't have enough data to implement more changes. Right now after a little bit more time player base found out more of those pesky op models (looking at you Von Schtook), so in my opinion we might see a little more, but yeah. I don't think they will update entire keyword, like we discuss in this post. Probably single update to one/two model and/or keyword ability. That would be maximum they would do.

2 minutes ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

not to be mistaken with "im in a place" similar to laugh off except it can only be moved by its own actions, no other friendly or enemy actions

*Sounds of Agent 46 being put on a shelf. 

You served well buddy, but this is not your time.

1 minute ago, muraki said:

'im wearing an outfit now: this model is not changed in any way by this ability, but hey you weren't going to hunker down anyway'

Made my day

15 minutes ago, Adran said:

That depends on what sort of crew you are playing, and how you use it. Chuck it on a model that is shooting, its not bad. put it in a Elite list where you can happily move models outside of their activation, and its not bad. 

How are you going to get through an armour+2 Shielded +2 Phiona ? (I guess lure, 😄 she can't just laugh it off). 

Its quite interesting to see you think an upgrade is over powered, but just change the order of the abilities and you rate it hugely differently. 

Would you still hire Lead lined coat as much if the abilities were altered in this way? Would the people you are adding it to change drastically (I guess would this make it a worthwhile upgrade on minions now, since to you the minions are getting value from getting the upgrade, as opposed to all its value being on the generic abilities that everyone gets)

I would still slap it on key models, (Phiona would actually kinda like this change :P) but I would take less. The problem with Hunker Down is that ability won't be used at all. As I said upgrade should give 2 various abilities so you can consider it in 2 or more scenarios, when minion one should be really strong. We would have stacking all over again (I know I said to slap Survivalist on it and now I think it would be stacking again. So, some utility ability instead of defensive one would be good (or even agro ability would do the job). I think the changes I propose for Inhuman Reflexes are actually kinda okay, and we should look at LLC from the same perspective. One Defensive ability, one aggressive ability and one strong (best case scenario multi-) role ability for minions. Amor +1 is what I would like keep on it. For aggressive it would be then Bravado, Purse (still might be too broken), Ruthless (I don't think GU needs it but it's an option), Grit(Frenzied), Stoic Nod action, Protection of the money, Deadly Pursuit. For minions I would suggest Parry trigger or Disguised? Not sure about that.

Just now, im_open_to_suggestions said:

hunker down. or another ability that i cant think of right now.

Hunker Down is damn useless

11 hours ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

make laugh off minions only. 

Okay, so what instead of Laugh Off for non-minions?

23 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One thing to note is how badly Neverborn were warped by the Inhuman Reflexes upgrade change (although I'm not sure if that was just lots of worry initially or if it had a really big impact).

If a whole faction is taking an upgrade and you nerf it, you have to compensate it with buffs, which is hard to imagine that many buffs going out at once.

I agree that this upgrade is kind off lacking, although Butterfly Jump was way to easy to abuse on non-minion models. Ancient Pact is also creating a really bad problem with card draw, you cannot give models ability to draw it because with Nefarious they are gonna draw way too much. Also, the top abilities are also really bad, so entire upgrade needs to ne changed. For my personal changes to Inhuman Reflexes would be this. For the top: Blade Rush and Evasive, for the minion only it would be Butterfly Jump. It would made Nephilim minions a little bit stronger, would help them with various scheme runners around faction. Also because we have 2 independent abilities on top (they just don't stack like LLC does) we can truly use this upgrade as tech option and not a must have as before. 

But it's a thread about Guild ups, so let's try keep it that way. Maybe in future we will do contest for a coolest new upgrade to a faction. But for this, we are gonna wait

Any pro tips or some nice interactions I might have missed?

1 hour ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

This, an upgrade thats an auto include should be nerfed to make it situational.  No Prisoners on a hard to kill model is amazing.  LLC being stapled onto cards is just boring for all involved

Soo, what are you suggesting?

10 minutes ago, explorator said:

Investigators are only taken if the Scheme pool is made for them, because they cost a point too much, but can be game changing.

For me they have 1 Df & Wd less then they should have

9 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

To add to this, just because a player is narrowly good at the game and can get top table a lot with their preferred crew(s), doesn't mean they're actually good at game design or balance, or even have a good idea of what's good in stuff they don't play.

We can at least try to be good! It's better to spew ideas at Wyrd hoping it would help them in future designs.

We might not know what models gonna be released in near future, so we as player base cannot look at it from broader point of view, but at least we pretty good know what currently is wrong with various keywords/models/upgrades

1 minute ago, LexLock said:

Use Lawyers to stack focus+shielded on Agent 46 and the Pale Rider, both with Lead-Lined Coat. Copy the Rider's gun with 46 and go to town, switch to Melee if anything gets close. Lawyer's tome trigger on Obeys should take care of scheming and Lucius gives AP to 46 and Lawyers.

I find Agent 46 being tech model which most of the time is not paying for himself 😕

So, I got this problem in Lucius that most of the time anything that can use positives or focus up is hammering the shit out me. With low stats across the keyword it's something I was expecting, although I can try to keep all those honkers alive (Orderly is actually pretty good model, sorry for flaming you buddy) and only one true mechanic in keyword (STAGGER & GARRRROTE!) with most minions being kind off underwhelming outside keyword in Lucius. 

So, how do you guys create your crews to mitigate most of the flaws in Lucius?

P.S. I find it surprising that Lucius only have 2 triggers on his main action (with one of them being bad). Pull Here or There, My Loyal Servant or Stay Awhile and Listen should be auto put on him, am I right? 🤣

On 1/7/2021 at 6:25 PM, Gaston said:

Be careful what you ask for. A lot of models will not change. A single upgrade may.

So if you feel a lot of models are designed with the upgrade in mind, once it changes, a lot of models will now not have access to it anymore. 

I can only hope for Wyrd to be a good gos when it will come to all. Although I understand frustration many people have, in GU and in other factions playing against it. 2 best defensive abilities should not be at the same on one up, while minion only are worthless.

10 minutes ago, NoisyAssassin said:

I've seen this approach taken in various ways with some of the dead GW games (namely, Mordheim, BFG, and Epic Armageddon). It has...mixed results.

Mordheim is a mess of conflicting house rule lists and some very, very broken warbands. BFG has a pretty big schism between people who think the original Eldar fleet is broken and unfun, and people who think the new community version is weird, unintuitive, underpowered, or unnecessary. Epic has different sets of "official" army lists in the US, UK, France, and Australia, has lists or units constantly being complained about or comapred between the versions, and their rules committees actually usually make changes more slowly than Wyrd or GW. 

There's certainly some good that comes out of "design by democracy," but it isn't a magic fix, and has a LOT of problems of its own.

I'm not saying that community should take all the right to rules, it won't work. Wyrd will always have the last call, they are mediator between us and the game. But, they should listen and answear to us more frequently. Right now we have half a year+ of silence. Outside some alts, we got nothing to better the game. Or to keep players in and cure their frustration with various mechanics.

They propably have quite a lot changes for us (they should have, looking at current balance of the game), but what will happen if they just nerf everything what is op to oblivion and will be unplayable till another errata. That was what happened to Levi in 2ed, to Sandeep and Rat kings in this errata. they test sample is too small to say is something truly OP or just dead.

18 hours ago, SEV said:

I think NB can be competitive. But as in many factions some keyword are just not good for competitive play...

This seem totally fine. I like what Wyrd are doing now. Instead of going hard on errata (which imo should always be a last resort) they had some new model for weak faction (the Damned will help Savage and Trex bring a real beater in the Fae keyword).

Combining that with GG adjustments and we should see slight shifts in the metagame. Top tier master will stay strong, but the option are there in NB... And if at the end of the day some master are still to weak, it's not the end of the world as long as the faction as a whole can be competitive. Well at least this is how I see things. 

To sum it up : errata for really OP thing or mistake. New models and GG adjustments to boost keyword. Cheer up, NB will be just fine.

The problem is, that new models are not an option to fix the keywords. We could just have book 4 & 5 all over again. We cannot just add more better models, because older models are not gonna be used anymore. You can look at Basse, he was mediocre, got a Sand Worm and Jonathan is ever more worst pick then before (instead of being a must have in his crew he is kind off a tech-tech pick which most of the time is not worth a hassle when you got Phiona which do same job but better. SW for lower cost is a bigger threat then he ever will be. 

You can add another strong minion to Lady Justice, but It won't change the fact that Recruiter is thrash. Before adding new models, we should fix older ones, so they won't be forgotten in competitive.

Same for some masters, Youko neeeds serious buff or design, more poeple are running Hinamatsu as a leader instead of her..., but the worst is that this is not a single thing in entire game. Rasputina, Youko, Sonnia, McMourning, Lych, Brewmaster, Victorias, Nekima and some more. All those masters are in dire need of changes, they win ratio is low, and they pick is non-existent in competitve. And it's not even about them being played less. A lot of people try to make some competitve list which can go against some big bois but most of the time they fall short, even against those who we take as balanced masters.

And even if another GG would boost melee & bubble crews, we could just have all scheme runners go on a shelf for a year. Which would kill another part a roster to bring back the rest.

I know we cannot just simply update the game as you can in video games, but creating and open "beta fixes" thread, where Wyrd would show us what fixes they have, where bigger sample crew would test it whenever they want and then just report back on forum, instead of creating their own little secret societies when limited players test new models or fixes which sometimes turn out so badly it's not even funny (Von Schtook, Kirai, McCabe and some others). Game should be played, created and balanced by players, not Wyrd. If we want fixes to models, we should get fixes to models. If we want new models, we should get them. This is simple marketing and business model which works all around the world.

17 minutes ago, Plaag said:

u still need to take into colette silent one for pillars and colette doesnt need ice dancers; in rasputina i dont know for what they are

It's true they are useless in Colette, so they would need a quite a special fix, although what someone above already said. Change Freeze a Corpse for something like this? Bonus action of course, range 2"(and maybe some Stat 6 TN 10?), although I think TN would be too much) "Glacial Sculpture: Target a scheme or Ice Pillar marker withing range. Drop an Ice Pillar or friendly scheme marker in base contact with the target, then destroy the target.". It would help Rasputina in scheme running and in Colette she would hunt down enemy schemes with much more easy then the rest of the Perfmormer keyword. Making her scheme runner in December & tech model in Perfmormer.

On 1/11/2021 at 1:22 PM, Legislat said:

Yep, totally.

Augmented is best keyword hands down - tons of models with different roles.

Lets count. Master and totem are excluded.

12 models ! lots excellent (Howard, Joss, Medical automaton, Toolkit, Steamfitters, etc) Most decent, few questionable. Excellent crew synergy.

Compare that to guards - 8 models, 2 of them excellent summons and decent hires, everything else is niche/bad. mediocre crew synergy based on Sergeant and Queeg. Pass

Family - 7 models. 1 excellent (Francisco), everything else is overcosted/understatted glass cannons. Very costly and restrictive crew synergy.

Mimic/Elite is alright, but still lacking models. - 7 models. 2 excellent (lawyer, changeling), 2 nice (agent, alan) rest niche/bad. Excellent crew synergy but based on 2-3 models tops.

Journalist - 6 models (really, only 6?). 2 Excellent (Phiona, UReporter), 2 nice (Allison, newsie). Good crew synergy that you can completely live without and hire something else. 

Marshal - 7 models. Mostly alright, but lacking real synergy with themselves and Lady itself. 

Frontier - 9 models. 2 excellent (worm, pathfinder), nice riders and everything else as a filler. They are not that good. They seriously lack in options against some crews. (Jack will wipe the floor with frontier for example). Deploy synergy, thats all.

Witch Hunters - 7 models. 1 excellent SanctionedSC, 1 nice (handlers) and rest are fillers. Thrall Glass rocket almost never works as a hire - too damn squshy for those stones. Stalkers and everything else is meh. Spelleaters are not really that good with the quality of the keyword as it is. Mediocre synergy. Not worth it.

I would say that Agent sucks 70% of the time. I only take it as tech piece against armored crews. The fact that after nerf (which in my opinion was a little to much) he did not get any recompensation. Df 5 on melee henchmen and none Df abilities to keep him say there is sad.

Spelleaters are best model in Sonnia, thou in grand scheme of things they are just okay, it's just says how jadły designed is this keyword.

LJ has only 1 great model, it being Lone Marshal. Jury is okay tech piece against Tara & Dreamer, nothing else. Domador is okay only in keyword. DM's are niche, same as Exe (beside the time you play against Jack Daw or Pandora). DMR is shit. 

Basse has Austringers which are amazing. But yeah, Basse is mostly caring his crew.

About Masters overall I would say that Hoff, Nellie, Dashel and Basse are mostly only viable picks in competive. You cannot do badly as Hoff. Nellie is a beast on some scheme pools. Dashel is okay, same as Basse. The rest falls short, at least in current GG. Outside Sonnia, she is just bad. 

1 hour ago, Azahul said:

What's Jedza do that's so good against Hamelin? Or vice versa. 

You gain life tokens for each rat, you don't have demise within 6" of her etc. You Are aktually playing on autopilot, Game plays itself. Same with Nekima and etc. 

4 hours ago, Cedar said:

I don't like this. Against certain crews you could generate absurd amount of stones and cards by killing the models with Raspy for example.

It's exactly the same as you Hamelin vs Jedza, or Sommer and some other masters. In some cases it my biggest value of the time, in some it may not even trigger once.

Part 3 is out! Let me know if I forgot to add something to it or just miss read some comments.

Okay guys, I'm gonna create PART 3 of this post in about a day to sum up all we came so far.