Filox

Pandora is one of the biggest problem for the Guild, mostly because she plays quite versus Guild typical playstyle, which is control of the middle and going for active plays. Pandora shuts down all of those things very easily, although we have some option. 

Pale Rider is risky, either you get one good ultimate or you opponent will never let him use his triggers.

Lone Marshal is great, he can pick off Candy at big distance and those not suffer much from Stunned.

Lawyer will get your models out of Candy  and will help you survive Misery ping damage while drawing some juicy cards.

Undercover Reporter is also okay tech piece because it let's you remove one Sorrow/Aversion from your face.

Agent 46 might be a little bit of help if he can engage Candy or Pandora at a right moment melting them down to adequative size.

Alan Reid may prove useful to ban some of the enemy  actions.

Guild Steward with condition removal and heal proved to me being very useful in this match up.

The play is to kill Candy before she drain your entire resources. After that it should be easier to handle her. In Woe the only playmaker is Padnora, Candy & Carver. Removing 1-2 or them out of equations should make the game much more easier, so just focus on one of them at the time.

1 hour ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Sure, but I'm not paying 9ss ook to kill 6wd models. Any keyword is equipped to do that pretty easily (maybe not journalist).

I'll have to run him with the Steward at some point. That's just 15ss investment to get (hopefully) two focused shots per turn... I guess y'all say it's worth it, I should try it out. 

You easily get to vulnerable backline, like to only healing model in crew or a model with Arcane Reservoir. And that's only value on Turn 1. If you position yourself in a cover or forest most crews won't be even able to do anything about him. If you invest in Lawyer you also gonna get those nice high rams for even more damage potential and with only one focus you can charge, shoot and walk back to safety with no risks involved!

33 minutes ago, katadder said:

yeah, thats not going to happen, the models are being released and we have them all on vassal, the book is out also, fully printed, plus cards so people would not be happy if the entire faction changes after they put money into it

It's normal in this kind of hobby. Warhammer players might be running good list and bang! New codex or supplement and here is your half of paycheck going into minis. As a Guild Player I would love to get faction overhaul

1 minute ago, belorey said:

Thats what i said, you pick Phiona as a def tech because we have none. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Must had misunderstood 😅

11 minutes ago, belorey said:

And Phiona when you need to protect an essential model.

You take Phiona because Guild in Defensive abilities are lower then those of Rats. Our masters compared to others have none defensive abilities (outside of Hoff and Basse but they are part AR & ES) or something else to at least nullify the gap in those specs. 

Lone Marshal is bonkers even on his own. Focus charge and you can kill any 6 Wd minion/enforcer. He is great for opening kills. Guild does not have techs, that's why Pale Rider, Lawyers & Steward are becoming our cores instead of paring option. 

4 minutes ago, belorey said:

Ami think they must be slow because they would be summoned B2B with an enemy model. And they have Constriction to prevent disengages. So if you mix It with Staggered become very dificult for the other model to scape. If the orderly is slow you can make one attack, and if he moves you have a bonus action (with a Card cost) to follow him.

If you put it that way it might be true that they would hold this model good in position or die to it's activation, either way good trade. Yeah, slow might work. But they don't need an upgrade.

48 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

A summon upgrade of some kind would be fine. It is worth noting though that Orderlies are plentiful (2) anyway so it's not like they could flood the board or anything. 

6 minutes ago, belorey said:

The name of the summon upgrade could be:

Working overtime: when this upgraded is attached the model gains Slow.

This model gain the following action:

Doctor's Orders: Discard a Card. Friendly only. Move the target up to 4".

Orderly are already Rare 2, and giving them good bonus for nothing is too good. I think that Stat 5 against enemy model + suit is enough

6 hours ago, Thatguy said:

I'd probably have them come in slow at least. If not with a summon upgrade. 

I don't think they need slow, this model can only heal to be precise or act as meat for your crew. One weak model per turn for a trigger on a master is not OP. 

Just now, Cedar said:

I like the idea of expanding the Asylum keyword. Had some spare time, so I decided to write a concept for the master and the totem. I wanted to create deny master, who drains opponent resources, while creating difference in mobility between crews (enemies with staggered vs friendly models with movement tricks). I wanted to utilize the idea of weaker master combined with stronger totem too. Let me know what do you think  

 

Sigmund Von Horn 13 cost

Master, Living

Asylum

 

5 DF 6 WP 4MV 2SZ

10 wounds, 30mm

 

Persistent Therapy: Enemy models with Staggered that start their Activation engaged by friendly Asylum model must either discard a card, or this model may Drop a Scheme Marker in base contact with them, ignoring LoS.

Protected(Asylum): After this model is targeted by an enemy Attack Action, it may discard a card to change the target to a friendly Asylum model within 2” of this model (ignoring range, LoS and targeting restrictions).

Intuition: At the start of this model’s Activation, it may look at the top three cards of its Fate Deck and then return them in any order.

Sedatives: After a Staggered Condition ends on an enemy model within 6 outside of that model Activation, the enemy model gains Slow.

----------

Attack Actions:

View of the Endless (RG: 10”, STAT: 6, RST:  Wp, TN: -): Target suffers 1/2/3 damage and gains Staggered.

Daze: Target gains Stunned and is Pushed up to 3” in any direction.

 

Dementia (RG: 10”, STAT: 5, RST: Wp, TN: 12): This Action cannot target the same model more than once per Activation. Non-Master only. Place the target anywhere within 3” of its current location. Then, the target takes a non-Charge General Action chosen and controlled by this model.

Involuntary Commitment: Once per Turn. Enemy only. After resolving the generated Action, Summon an Orderly into base contact with the target. 

Touch of Madness: Target Discards a random card.

Tactical Actions:

Emergency Surgery (RG: 2”, STAT: 7, RST: -, TN: 10: 😞 Other Living model only. Target Heals 1/2/3.

Pulled Here and There: Push either this model or the target up to 3”.

Dark Bargain (RG: 6”, STAT: 6, RST: -, TN: 10: 😞 Friendly only. Target suffers 1 damage and may then take the Interact Action.

  Burn Out: Target suffers 2 damage and gains Fast. 

 

Ian Connor 8 Cost

Enforcer, Living

Asylum

 

6 DF 5 WP 5MV 2SZ

8 wounds, 30mm

 

By Your Side: At the start of this model’s Activation, it may discard a card to Place itself within 2” of a friendly non-Minion that shares a Keyword with it.

Hostile Work Environment: Enemy models within 6 may not be targeted by the Actions of other enemy models.

Restraining Tactics: Friendly Asylum models within 6 increase the range of their Actions by +1”.

Restraints: Enemy models with Staggered that are engaged by this model are ignored by their controller for the purposes of Strategies and Schemes.

Research Specimens: After this model kills an enemy model, this model may draw a card.

Hard to Kill: When this model suffers damage, if it has 2 or more Health, it may not be reduced to below 1 Health.

----------

Attack Actions:

Staggering Punch (RG: 0”, STAT: 6, RST:  Df, TN: -): Target suffers 2/3/4 damage and gains Staggered.

You’re Comin’ with Me: Push the target up to 3” in any direction, then Place this model into base contact with it.

Can’t Breathe: Target must have Staggered. When resolving, the target suffers +2 damage.

Lead the Way (RG: 2”, STAT: 6, RST:  Df, TN: 11): This Action cannot target the same model more than once per Activation. Target model is Pushed 4” in any direction, then Push this model up to 4” toward the target.

Sudden Strike: This model may take a Action.

Tactical Actions:

Electroshock Therapy(Rg: 6”, STAT: 6, RST:  -, TN: 14): Enemy Models within range must each pass a TN 12 Wp duel suffer 1 damage and gain Staggered. Models that already had Staggered when this Action was declared and failed the duel must discard a card each.

Surge: Draw a card.

 

That is actually the best concept of master/totem I have seen.

5 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Because Fuhatsu is over-tuned and doesn't allow counterplay. Bad baseline to work from. 

Fuhatsu is great example of super offensive henchmen. Comparing him to Francisco, Fuhatsu is harder to kill, brings more damage to the table. Francisco also has different job, that is correct, but Francisco won't hold long in combat, he will just get focused down way too quickly while Fuhatsu will probably shoot until the game ends.

5 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

If you aren't killing anything you need killed with Family I'm sorry, but that's user error. They're in a similar position as the Viks - skirmish crews. Only Family has a 3-4 card tax per turn and no way to pay for it. Their durability is not great, would be fine if they got more cards. 

 Viktorias are faster and have heal in keyword, great scheme runners, great offensive henchmen who brings utility also to the table, easy access to fast, great healer with good card draw. 

Family on the other hand have better range and better access to focus. For a game in which is all about mobility and being able to not die like pile of thrash, Family falls short, even on Guild standards.

57 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Defensive tech ideas; adjust "nice shot" to be +1 to all duels outside their activation. 

Please, don't make another Lenny, Do you know how cancerous is Big Hat?

57 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Defensive tech ideas; adjust "nice shot" to be +1 to all duels outside their activation. 

And I maintain Finger on the Trigger needs to be a free action with the "ignoring engagement" qualifier. Both of those should help quite a bit without being boring. 

I had an idea of ability being better Gunfighter... Gunslinger: This model may treat his  actions as  range 1" and can take  even if engaged. For being best gunner in entire Malifaux she does not show this very well.

And comparing Family to Kin is also another joke...

Also! Pistolero are the worst model in the game. Even Stolens deal more damage and bring more to the table then them,

5 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I've heard in a couple podcasts the recommendation that distracted cancel off focus like fast and slow.  If its doing that, would that resolve the resiliency concerns?

Not as much as you think. Problem with those models is that even thou they have serene and manipulative, they are still models with 4-6 Wounds with Df 5. Even though if focus would be canceled by Distracted, Nellie does not give out a lot of this condition anyway(Field Reporter, Alison and that's about it) to make it viable defensive tech, but at the end of the day it would help a little only against close combat crews. For Shooters it won't change at all and Fuhatsu will just blown them away anyway.

And yes, they also cost 4 - 6 SS per model, but those models are not even doing anything good or special. Most of the Nellie crews run with maximum of single Field Reporter. Rest of the crew goes full rambo or some other special tech. Similar case is in Colette, after her nerf and Distracted buff she would still run most of her crews OOK because those cheap control-tech models are not bringing much to the table. 

26 minutes ago, belorey said:

Journalist needs to increase the range of the Exclusive interview or give a way to drop scheme markers. And they need also new enforcer and a way to give more damage or become more resistant.

I agree with a part about being a little bit more resilent and models which actually does something beside being control piece. 

8 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Fair, make it so they apply a positive twist to the terrifying duel as well (can't come up with the wording right now). But literally the only issue I have with the crew is card economy and if I'm getting free draws on every attack that's no longer a problem. 

Please remember that Family has low damage output without cards in mass card drain keyword. And even with those cards, your damage output is mediocre compared to other offensive crews. Their durability is very low, only model who can take the hit is non-existent, even for aggressive keyword like Family. Master who is 6/6 with no defensive abilities outside trigger which prevents an throw away shot at the end of the turn. 

And terrifying is not the problem, problem is that this keyword has only 4 playable models which 3 are Rare 1 and 1 minion who is also mediocre scheme runner. Which make them unable to play any decent strategies and schemes.

1 minute ago, admiralvorkraft said:

That feels like a lot. Build in Family Values and add "when this model expends focus they ignore the terrifying ability" to Bravado would be plenty. 

Oh definitely not, and mass ignore of terrifying is bad.

On 12/29/2020 at 1:59 PM, Filox said:

Family: 

Change Bravado to either push or give Shielded +2 (Shielded +1 is too weak in my honest opinion for an action which you can only make once per turn).

Perdita Ortega:

Only model which doesn't have Family Values trigger on her main action although being a Master. This trigger is on Analyze Weakness action though which makes it sometimes useless when your opponent does not generate huge amount of Shielded or has Armor. So first change would be giving Perdita Family Values trigger on her Custom Peacebringer attack action (maybe should even be built in my opinion, it can only be used once per Activation anyway).

Francisco Ortega

Due to buff in Bravado him having Gtit (Hardened) and option to Armor via LLC upgrade he could be a little way to tough to take down. First would be removing Grit to reduce his damage reduction by 1. I personally would like him to have Combat Finesse instead of normal Finesse as well changing his Df trigger to something like this Don't Mind Me, Focus on the Battle: (I'm terrible at naming stuff like this...) Friendly Family model within LoS/6"  can take Concentrate action. This trigger could definitely be built in and replace Parry. Some people say that only removing Grit and giving built in on Balanced Sword attack action would also be sufficient.

Pala Loco

Folks says that giving him Ruthless and Thrash on his Attack Actions would be enough, thou in my honest opinion he don't need Thrash trigger, he has Blow It to Hell bonus action to do it instead.

Santiago Ortega 

Would also use Ruthless as Df stat increase to 6. His damage track is one of the worst in entire keyword and he does not bring much to the table, thou giving weak damage track value of 3 would really help this model see more play.

Nino

For being only model with built Family Values and mediocre damage even for his cost (as lacking Expert Shot) he dies way to quickly. He has nothing to defend himself and there is almost no way to defend him in keyword from his adversaries. Giving him Stealth would fix most of the problems of this model.

Monster Hunters are okay in my opinion.

Pistolero de Latigo:

As for being one of the worst models in entire game in many people opinion they would definitely use a little bit of love. I saw that some of you said giving them Hard to Kill instead of Fistful of Script and increasing they Wd stat to 5. I personally like this and would definitely help them to start being seen on more competitive tables.

Actually I would like to add something to this. I think Family Values could actually be built in trigger on most actions. Pistelero could get By Your Side and Shielded +2 could be with Push instead of just instead.

I had a great convo with some people yesterday and I actually changed my mind about getting next master being Asylum. We really need master with crew all about mobility. Getting OC Zipp or Misaki on symbols (same Collette and other schemers) is so frustraining when your opponent just zooms over your models and ends a game with 8 VP

1 hour ago, admiralvorkraft said:

So I do agree that they're is a bit of an issue, and that is cross-keyword hiring. 

The Kabuki Warrior is perfectly balanced in keyword. Cerberus is completely balanced in keyword (SSC cache is the issue there). Thrall is just fine in keyword,  balance around the strengths and weaknesses of the keyword. But it's not good compared to Phiona. Who the keyword shouldn't have free access to because then it's not a keyword with unique strengths and weaknesses anymore... but that's a design issue with the game at large. 

You're Coming With Me places the Thrall in contact with the target so I don't see how that specific is a problem. Plus the Df Trigger should be enough to mitigate the consequences of blowing up early. 

The issue is not with cross hiring, but the fact that all of the models listed above can do something else beside running straight at the enemy making single attack and dieing in not so spectacular fashion, they have an option like luring, scheming, tanking or just simply moving models around, Thrall on the other hand has none of those options. 

13 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Kabuki Warrior is strictly worse in my experience. I just blow it off the table before it gets relevant. Sabertooth is better with SSC but otherwise it's pretty similar on paper. Leap is great of course, but clearly that's not the sort of trick Guild is allowed to have.

Goryo again has a worse attack though Vengeance and Incorporeal are a great combo. Kentauroi has a very different role within the keyword thanks to Ride With Me. The Raider seems good on paper but I've never seen it played.

Again, I think you're using the Thrall wrong if you're looking at it as primarily an aggressive piece. Your in-keyword alpha striker is Sonnia, the Thrall is there to bust her out of combat and mix it up in the mid-game before dying and splashing burning that lets you summon a new one...

Guild can only play control type of game and yes, he is semi-aggressive piece. But he literally cannot be anything else, Kabuki Warriors bring you so much utility to the table with Lures, Distraction and Combat Finesse making it great OOK tech piece against Viks and other melee masters who rely solely on close combat. And as you see, all those models that I listed are not fun to attack in close combat. Yet, Thrall not only being easier to actually attack him, he's Demise is not supplement for defensive tech. You are coming with me is okay trigger but not to disengage Sonnia 'cause you are just gonna end up with big bomb next to your squishy master and it's fuze is really short. If you are shutting down Kabuki before they become relevant, imagine model for 1/6 of your Crew becoming relevant after getting killed in semi-spectacular fashion. 

31 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

 

I think that's more of a matter of the Students being over-tuned than the Thrall being bad. Throw anything forward 15" for one attack and a halfway decent player will melt it. That's not the Thrall's fault. It reads as a roadblock/countercharge piece to me. Hold it back a bit turn one as you get burning on the opponent and limit their ranged options, get it in the mix turn 2/3 with a stack of focus and let it clear out the center.

It's got a better Ml than the student thanks to Crit Strike and You're Coming With Me. And yeah, it's more fragile, but again that's Schtook's crew being over tuned generally. 

It's not just Viscera being overtuned. Kentaouri, Kabuki Warrior, Goryo, Wokoku Raider, Sabertooth. All of those models are performing better in simple job. Strong melee minion. And not all of them are based on suecideing themself on 1 enemy model just two gain decent value in trade model for model (which Thrall usually don't get). There is not enough support them, and they itself don't bring much to the table. Every other of those models has something to protect himself from harm by being harder to hit, having reduction or just overpowering mobility. Thrall can either charge or do nothing, and only thing keeping him standing in this card lacking keyword is HtW, which most of the time is given for free in other keywords.

1 minute ago, trikk said:

Compare Witchling Thrall to Student of Viscera  

TOP KEK

Oh yeah, what do you guys think about Witchling keyword? I think the idea is nice, though they are way too weak to be decent hireables. It's true that you can run 15" and make a hit for 3/5/7 with Thrall, although they die way too easily with no real defensive tech to help them stay more then 1 turn in combat. I would personally like to see them gain like 1 more Wd or Arcane Shielded as Witch Hunters have. And maybe Witchling Handler could buff any Witchling, instead of Witchling minion with it's Mv bonus. It would open a way for enforcer/henchmen Witchling model in the future.

4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Why no sand worm? Is it recover evidence?

Yup

Pro tip for round 2! If you are attacker go for Basse and choose left deployment. Right deployment is just a barren wasteland so your opponent cannot hide from Jonathans Bring Its and one Dust Cloud can block entire bridge. Remember only not to take Sand Worm. Double Austringers & Pathfinders might prove very strong on this map. LYM is your go to scheme.

Just now, trikk said:

I lost 7:4 to Colette as Sonnia.

T1 went well as I RJ into Cassandra from Sonnia but after that my crew started melting. Harata RJed my Rider for a total of 8 dmg which swinged the game super hard Then Colette hit Sonnia for 6 with the Sword trick. Even my opponent said I should have been salty