LeperColony

RAW I think it's hard to escape the conclusion that you have to take two tests.  Do I think that's good for the game?  No.

13 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

They just need something. Right now the only reason I think they are priced at 8SS is the Demise ability and while it's certainly nice, it's not enough to warrant taking them. I can't see ever taking more than 1, and even that could be a hard sell.

I've only played her a few times, so I'm no expert.   But my experience with the Lampads is that their demise ability conflicts with the role of running around scheming/hunting down schemers, because they can't reliably move the pyre markers enough.  Only a single walk can move them.  I'd prefer if it were any move, and maybe you have to take damage to move them or something as balance.

4 hours ago, solkan said:

Although, to be frank, if you're going to accuse some models of looking like prostitutes, and you don't mention the Red Chapel keyword, I think you're possibly missing a frame of reference, historical and otherwise.

Not to mention, even a cursory understanding of vaudeville theater would make any of the sculpts not only thematically appropriate, but even tame.

Molly's alt crew are late 18th Century pirates, so they're further away in time than the 80's Mei Feng crew.

9 hours ago, Picasso said:

Combat tends to be easy or hard but no in between.

This is a side effect of static TNs as the only resolution system.  Using opposed flips will greatly abate that.

It says it's built to 35 mm scale.  So the doors and windows may be too large, but the interiors should be a better fit.

If you swap to opposed flips, you'll find it's an easy solution that makes a profound difference.

The section in the rules about on page 30 doesn't use the word "marker."  It always says "a is dropped"  So perhaps they did account for this.

EDIT:  Well, the example does use the term Blast Marker.  But the actual rules section doesn't.

3 minutes ago, Drowsheep said:

Yeah, Kunoichi while once in a blue moon will do something, but mostly just meander across the board without making it worth it.

I haven't used them in M3E, but I have played against them twice and I agree that they seem a little underwhelming.

Switch to opposed flips.

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I must confess I'm not familiar with the falling damage ruling. I would have assumed it counted as neutral death (same as if hazardous terrain kills you when you're pushed into it). Do you have a source for that? Feels like an M2E thing?

It's in the March 2020 FAQ, Section 1, Question 9.

4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For the carrion emissary example, the Midnight Stalker dies in step 6 of Montresor's damage.

Good to know!

5 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

A more fitting example might be if someone has an aura that says "after a model takes damage from a melee attack, deal one damage to it." If a model died from that, it'd die from the aura (not the attack).

Well, that wouldn't be a chain.  It would just be a clear additional but separate damage from another source.

But if it said "when this model takes damage from a , it takes +1 damage."  Then it's no as clear.

2 hours ago, Adran said:

Arson, an action that has shockwaves centered on scheme markers rather than dropping Shockwave markers tells us that we have to remove the scheme marker at the end of the attack as a separate step

Arson is not analogous.  Angelica substitutes for the marker as a cost/special requirement or effect.    

In Arson, the scheme marker removal is part of the attack's base effect, and in fact is often one of the points to the attack.  Removing enemy scheme markers.  

So I don't think you can read the abilities as similar and gleam intent from them.

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It seems pretty clear that the source of something doesn't 'chain.'

I don't know if I agree with this as a theory of rules construction in Malifaux.

Montressor hits the Midnight Stalker and brings it to 0 Health.

Midnight Stalker declares his Demise.

Unfortunately for him, he is within the Carrion Effigy's Aura of Decay, so he cannot heal and dies.

Who has killed the Midnight Stalker?  If you say Montressor, you're chaining the cause through the Carrion Effigy's ability.  If you say the Carrion Effigy, he never did any damage or brought the enemy model to 0 health (in other words, he never "killed" the Midnight Stalker as described in the rules).

Also, if a model creates an effect that causes a target to take falling damage, that model counts as killing the target, even though (so glad I get to say this), it's the fall that killed ya.

12 hours ago, Adran said:

But I still have no idea about how to "remove the marker that the dove is/isn't" so to convince me the trigger can work I would like it all explained, and not trying to bypass the targeting requirements of the trigger.

I can't claim to know the answer either.  

But for me, it comes down to what the developers intended for these center-on-model-shockwaves.  Did they intend the model to essentially substitute for the shockwave marker?  In that case, I do think you should get the scheme marker.

Or, did they mean the fact that it's a model and not a marker to be particularly significant.  In that case, the model isn't meant to be a temporary shockwave marker, so we shouldn't read the model as a stand in for the shockwave marker in regards to other effects.

Two other models in the game have this trigger, but only Angelica has the ability to center her shockwave on a model instead for a special effect.  We know triggers are written for consistency between models, which seems like another point in favor of the idea that the wording of Not a Bomb wasn't specifically meant to prevent a scheme marker in Angelica's case.  

However, it doesn't establish that you get the scheme marker either, as neither of the other two models with this action would.

1 minute ago, Adran said:

You were the one questioning the use of another if there wasn't a first, I just showed how it can work even if it was that precise in wording. 

No, you don't understand.  It's not that I'm saying you're wrong.  You're not wrong. 

I'm saying I'm not convinced the rules are written that precisely.  Or, rather, that intentionally.  

Personally, I don't know how this works.  That's why I asked.  But I don't think the ability and trigger were written with such precision that we can necessarily say that because Not a Bomb mentions "drop a shockwave marker" it excludes doves, and I don't think the use of Cataclysm relies on your opponent knowing the dove-centered marker has to be the second one.

Put another way, would you forbid your opponent a second shockwave maker if they placed the first using the dove?

25 minutes ago, Adran said:

You could choose to replace the additional marker with a dove instead of the first marker. 

Functionally, since the shockwaves are identical and both have to be placed before resolving the action, the effect is the same whether the first or second is the dove.  But just from a mechanical standpoint, this interpretation relies on a precise order of operations I'm not at all sure was intended.

8 minutes ago, Adran said:

I would say that the cataclysim trigger works fine, you use 1 dove instead of a shockwave, and then place an additional shockwave marker. 

This isn't meant to signify that I disagree with your Not a Bomb reading, but I would point out that Cataclysm does say drop "another" shockwave marker.  If you never drop a first, you can't then drop "another."

If you center Angelica's shockwave on a dove, and so therefore do not drop a shockwave marker, are you allowed to place a scheme marker in base with the dove with the Not a Bomb trigger?  Or do you forfeit the scheme marker because no shockwave marker was dropped?

If a shield bearer uses Blasphemous Ritual, targeting a Corpse Candle, then under the Corpse Candle's Walking Dead ability, it would be killed.

Who counts as killing the Corpse Candle?  The rules say that a model counts as having been killed by the model that generated the action or ability that killed it.  So did Blasphemous Ritual kill it, or the Walking Dead?

I haven't experienced this at the LA store we play out of, but if you do get an electronic receipt, can't you just print it out and take a photo of that?

4 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

So not many. But Lotus Eaters is good news.

Why would there be many?  For most, if not all of the crews that make these markers, they rely on them.  Being able to remove them is going to be highly advantageous to you, and significantly detrimental to your opponent.

Even if you can't remove them, there are also models and crews that can derive benefits from them.  Nellie can use markers to deal damage to enemy models.  Pyre markers are useful to Reva as well as Kaeris.  Basse gets cover in Severe terrain.  I think with the exception of Titania's Underbrush, every other non-destructible marker is shared between at least two keywords.

And if you're not willing or able to include removal or models that can benefit from them, there are still models that can ignore some or all of the effects.  There are models that ignore Severe or Concealing.  There are models that ignore or even benefit from Burning.  Incorporeal is a thing (though not against Kaeris!).  Condition removal against some.  Damage mitigation against others.  Movement.  Positioning.  

Counterplay exists.  If you're not interested in changing your crew based on the match up, then yes, there are going to be some games that feel oppressive.  But if you look, there are almost certainly answers in the model pool.

5 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

Then there are crews that spew out severe and/or hazardous terrain, 50 mm markers, that stay on the table and there's nothing you can do. 

Just because a marker isn't destructible, that doesn't mean it can't be removed.  This is when you tech in marker removal, if you can.  Particularly if you're ressers and Molly is an option as a leader or second master...

And even if you can't remove it, there are options like taking more place effects to avoid them, models that are incorporeal or ignore terrain as @dannydb mentioned, models with lures to force the fight out of the markers, etc.

There is counter play.  It may not always come from the models you'd want, and so it may be a choice among suboptimal options.  But remember, if you can remove or avoid these markers, it generally means the crew that is depending on them will have a much harder time.

8 hours ago, Rorschach67 said:

What's an eager new volunteer, old player to do?

In my opinion, enthusiasm is the most important resource for starting and building a new meta.  Don't let it slip away while you wait on paperwork!  Henchman titles and rewards are nice, but it's no substitute for running demos and fostering a community.  

I don't know what the COVID situation is in your locality, but even if things are on a total lock down, you can lay the groundwork by being active on FLGS sites to gin up interest, reading the rules to feel solid about teaching, and (as you've already mentioned you're doing) working on visuals like crews and terrain.  And if they're more open, then there's no substitute for getting games in!

11 hours ago, Cursed25 said:

I disagree with you! Before the nerf he was a strong model but far from top-tier!

If you don't think pre-nerf Yasunori was top tier, what would an example of a top tier model be for you?