Whut

Imagine that when a LoS line hits a model, it stops dead in it's tracks (lets say both Ht 2). If you're standing perfectly on top of a marker, at the exact point where it stops, it's also touching the marker, thus you can see the marker. If the model is positioned perfectly between you and the marker, the LoS line drawn tangential to both models' bases towards the 30mm marker stops when it touches the blocking model. As it hasn't reached the marker, you don't have LoS to the marker

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Of course, all this assumes you can sneak past the wave of Yan Lo models advancing across the table.

This, right here ^

Also, it's pretty easy to get anywhere you want on the table during the game, but is it easy to get anywhere you want on the table AND kill/push an Ashigaru (push twice, if it just moves back) on turns 2 and 3? Because if not, you're either killing an Izamu, killing an Anna, or already losing maximum points....

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Great points, @Whut!

A few quick thoughts: 

1. Ashigaru aren't that vulnerable to blasts - you can stand 50.8 mm away and be within 2" and outside of blast range. So they have to work to hit you with blast damage (use another attack to bait take the hit).

2. Severe terrain shouldn't be monus 1/3. The math becomes really gross (1/3 of 8 inches? Doable, but try that at the end of 7 hours of playing).

Also the game is balanced around terrain being a big factor in games. Crews like this are allowed such a high power level precisely because terrain can ruin their day. Whereas someone like Reva is powerful because she ignores it. Reva would feel pretty irrelevant if severe isn't high impact.

Thanks!

1) In theory, this should work, and I never thought of that so I'll keep it in mind. But in practice are you going to give up 1-3" of forward momentum to ensure you're 50.01" away from your intended target? Are you able to position properly so that you're 50.01" away from EVERY friendly model? What is more important, staying 50.01" away to avoid blasts, or getting as close as possible to protect against charges with Extended Reach? As games go on, things start to get really messy, with engagement, standing B2B with strategy markers, abilities which move models (like Beckoning Call, which always moves your Wk), moving such that a Walk+Interact the following turn gets you a scheme marker where you need it, moving such that the following turn you can move such that a Walk+Interact the following-following turn gets you a scheme marker where you need it (as much recursion as required here, up to 5 turns lol), chokepoints on the map where staying 50.01" away requires climbing on top of terrain, or moving into severe terrain, etc. Especially with a nearly all-melee crew, you don't have the luxury of spacing out your models like that.

2) This isn't the right place to have this discussion drag on, but I really want to have this discussion at some point. If you want, start a thread and shout me out. My position is roughly this:

• M3E sped up the game by allowing every model to walk-charge (a vast improvement IMO), so shooting had to get easier to make up for the ability of combat models to engage shooting models.
  • Now nearly every rifleman-type model ignores cover or concealment or both (and usually friendly fire too), and even those that don't often benefit from something similar like "Blow it to Hell." Plus now that focus carries over turns, they can just use focus anyway.
  • Cover ->  no longer gives minuses to attack, just +1 Df, so many shooters are happy to fire twice for min damage + triggers, but a model can't push over the cover it just benefited from as part of a charge, so the close combat model is effectively at -1 AP.
  • Concealment -> as we all know the danger of shooting is often in focused shots for 4-5 damage + triggers. If they want to focus in the first place, concealment does almost nothing against it. I like how concealment now applies to non-gun attack actions, but I think this should be enemy-only.
• However, most if not all cover blocks pushes, and most concealing terrain is also severe, and severe halves your movement as long as even 1% of your base touches it. So when trying to leave terrain, your entire base size of 1-2" drags behind you, slowing down your walk which is only 5" to begin with in the average case. In M2E this wasn't a problem because pushes ignored severe terrain, but now that charging is a 1AP push, this doesn't work anymore.
• The result of these changes is that taking cover from shooting is more of a detriment than a benefit, unless you have flight, unimpeded, or incorporeal. I'd say probably 75% of the time I'd rather not take cover at all and tank the hits if it means I can properly charge or move-charge next turn. Instead of cleverly having to consider pushes when dealing with severe terrain, they just act as black-hole tarpits scattered across the battlefield that I dare not move into if I ever want to get out. At least normal Impassable terrain often blocks LoS entirely, but forests and the like slow you down and provide (almost) no benefit against most of the ranged models from which you're hiding in the first place. It's totally unintuitive, just feels bad and stupid during play, and leads to dumb interactions like over 50% of models with the Ambush action not having unimpeded and so only getting a 1.5" push and not really wanting to be in terrain at all despite "benefiting" from being in severe/concealing.
• While this usually doesn't affect the game balance poorly at top-level play, what it does do is create a massive chasm between certain crew matchups, often making it not only an uphill battle but one which is simply not fun at all. For example, if my opponent declares Neverborn, I literally cannot risk picking any keyword which is poor at handling severe terrain (example: Bandit, Augmented, Honeypot, Experimental), because if my opponent declares Titania I might practically be unable to leave my deployment zone outside of 1-2 models. Similar black-and-white power swings come from things like Pit Traps, where you can almost completely block off a section of the board like the Mah player in NSE's game simply because half the crews in the game can't easily traverse severe terrain. This kind of interaction hurts below-average keywords more than the top-tier ones. It also pushes crews towards taking Riders, and those are good enough to be considered without the no brainer of "I need to take this so my crew can traverse severe terrain with any level of efficiency at all."
• I see several possible solutions:
  • Make severe terrain cost only 33% of movement (the simplest and least thought out solution)
  • Make pushes ignore severe terrain, but change Charge to "move in a straight line" rather than push, (and allow charges to include climbing over obstacles?)
  • Create a classification for "Unimpeded Push" and "Unimpeded Move" (Ex: Ambush -> "...it may unimpeded move up to 3") and rework a bunch of abilities in the game

TL;DR: Terrain no longer affects shooting enough, but affects movement too much. Make it affect movement less.

So, after sleeping on this, I've come to the conclusion that this Yan Lo tactic isn't as overpowered as I first thought. If we make the assumption that this tactic was NOT intended, we then have to analyze if the combo is too powerful to be left in the game.

It does have some key weaknesses in mechanics:

• The crew is rigid, and thus can't take tech choices against certain matchups easily
• The crew has no blast attacks - one of the most powerful features in Malifaux
• The crew - while not entirely slow due to pushes - doesn't have movement tricks to get around severe terrain outside of Yan Lo's own Incorporeal. You can see this in NotSoEmpty's game as Anna & Chiaki struggle to get through a forest. (Honestly though, I think this is more of an issue with Severe terrain in M3E in general. I think it should reduce movement by 33% rather than 50%, but that's a discussion for another time)
• The crew suffers against blast attacks, since Ashigaru are particularly susceptible at Df/Wp 4, not H2W, and wanting to stay within 2" of other models for Take the Hit. You can also see this in NotSoEmpty's game at the end as Mah blasts onto Anna and Chiaki.
• You need to use an AP from someone (probably Anna or YanLo) on Turn 2 to kill Chiaki, sacrificing movement or being able to concentrate. This is bad for Anna, as she probably wants to walk-shoot or walk-charge (to make use of her auras), and bad for Yan Lo, as he probably wants to Corpus, Transcendence/Paths, Paths. The last option is Toshiro charge, but this requires Chiaki to walk forward instead of using Beckoning Call, since you want Toshiro advancing for his Aura and possibly schemes. There's no best answer.
• There's a lot of management to be done with Reliquaries in mid-late game, and you have to think ahead. Having Izamu or Toshiro die while their Reliquaries are on the other (or Anna) forces you to then go out of your way to remedy the situation at the cost of AP before you bring them back. Having a Reliquary on a model who dies then forces you to have a mask in hand and acceptable positioning to get it back with Chiaki.
• As soon as you declare YanLo, your opponent will know to bring anti-armor in anticipation of Izamu, which also helps in the removal of Ashigaru and Anna
• The crew suffers typical summoner variability:
  • 3% chance to fail having a 10 in hand on turn 1 (small, but it happened to NotSoEmpty), 
  • Small chance to black joker one of 2 summoning flips for Toshiro.
  • Anna can Black Joker her bonus action unless you take The Whisper on her
  • Chiaki is not guaranteed to get 2 split souls on T1 (and even if she does, you only have 2 Reliquaries anyway, so not much of a bonus),
  • Yan Lo can fail his bonus action trigger, meaning he needs to use his last AP to pass the Reliquary and doesn't get to concentrate or GrowingPower trigger
  • Izamu can black joker an attack against Chiaki, forcing Toshiro to kill her rather than D's Gift an Ashigaru.
• The crew saves 2-3 severes or high moderates in hand at the end of Turn 1, sure. but the crew has a LOT of low-moderate TNs, likely 2-3 discards, and a card reserved for Toshiro to summon T2. TNs on T2 include Beckoning Call (6), Flute (4), Paths (4), Transcendence (6), Instill Youth (5), Empower Ancestor (4), and Foul-MM (6). Discards are Flurry, Flute, Take the Hit, and Juggernaut if Izamu gets dunked on.
• The crew feels like it has not enough SS with the two upgrades (Personally, Whisper on both Yan and Anna). With needing 2x (10+ Crow) on T1, and then another 10+ Crow each additional turn, you'll likely be spending 2-3 stones for suits and 1-2 for cards over the course of the game, in a crew with 2 Henchmen. You can forgo one Whisper for 2 Stones, but that's a very strong upgrade to give up, not to mention Whisper helps Anna and YanLo draw the right cards for Toshiro T1. If you want to play or bluff Hidden Martyrs with an Effigy, you have to get rid of both upgrades and still only have 4 stones.

and in Schemes:

• The crew can't play Public Enemies unless it can ensure no LoS to enemy models for Chiaki and Toshiro T1 (which you probably can't ensure on most boards before you pick deployment side). You also can't kill Chiaki T2 for a third corpse, defeating the purpose of the combo since you aren't getting an extra Ashigaru by the end of T2 compared to your typical Toshiro game.
• The crew is average at schemes such as Breakthrough and Sabotage unless you use YanLo himself, sacrificing his most powerful Turns for scheming, or run over the opposing crew in turn 3. Gokudo can attempt it, but isn't as good as something like a SS miner since he needs to summon T2 and then scheme T3, rather than being able to pop up and immediately get the VP at the end of a turn. Heavily enemy-crew dependent, it just comes down to whether or not they can reach him.
• The crew cannot score more than 1 VP for Hidden Martyrs (Chiaki + Gokudo-Turned-Toshiro) unless you give up the two Upgrades for a Carrion Effigy, which does almost nothing for the crew (ugh, I hate that 2" range on the heal, so bad)
• The crew is poor at Research Mission, as they create no marker types for themselves other than corpses.
• The crew broadcasts Catch and Release - you only have to worry about 1 model
• Vendetta, while it can be "cheated" with the Gokudo-Turned-Toshiro, isn't an insane amount better. You get to choose a model between 5-9 stones that you couldn't have with a normal Toshiro, and Toshiro is predictable in his movements at Wk 5 with no movement abilities. He is also VERY stressed to be able to summon every turn AND be in position to score Vendetta at some point. The majority of the plus side comes from Toshiro just being super tanky and able to be healed, making the second point easy to score. A typical Yan Lo list can as-intended replace a minion with an Ancestor anyway. Ulix can do a similar thing with a Piglet and no one complains about that.

Conclusion
Is the combo strong? Yes. You get an extra Ashigaru summon, and your hand gets pretty stacked for Turn 2. But does it require a nerf? Or is this the "only way" to play Yan Lo? I would say no.

Consider that taking Kirai, which any resser list can do, can add even more (and more flexible) summoning power, aid in dealing with Terrain issues thanks to Incorporeal, can't fail using The Whisper, and can affect the combat more than Toshiro can with her 12" ignoring friendly fire gun. Even in the future when Kirai's Soul gets reworked to be Leader-only, as we expect it might, I believe this still holds true (you just try to summon Gaki rather than get free Ikiryos).

Another consideration should be Ulix. Ulix and the Sow have more summoning power and replace models just like this crew does, and as a result can be a suspect test for some of the shenanigans one can pull off with schemes, with Piglets becoming War Pigs - an even bigger swing in Cost than Gokudo-Toshiro and with MUCH more mobility and ability to deal damage (although, not as much ability to tank damage, granted).

My one contention with this list, and the one nerf I would suggest, is an errata on Recover Evidence. The ability for this crew to damage and kill their own models and leave 3 strategy markers in their deployment zone (probably all protected by an Ashigaru's 2" engagement) with no possible counterplay from the opponent is too much, and likely not intended by the designers. I would reword the second paragraph to add: "Drop an equal number of enemy Strategy Markers into base contact with the model, not within 1" of the enemy deployment zone. If this is not possible, instead drop a strategy marker on the Centerline, at least 6" away from another enemy Strategy Marker." This ensures that the Yan Lo crew must exit their deployment zone before performing the kill-replace shenanigans, and likely makes them spread out more so the markers aren't all within a 5" bubble for a single Ashigaru to babysit. Playtesting may reveal that increasing the range of this restriction to 2-3" makes for better balance.

In conclusion of the Conclusion,

@Wyrd, you hiring?

Peace, I'm out 😎

28 minutes ago, Plaag said:

he was very tired after trip to a big 2 days malifaux competition in other town and had tonns of work, so if he was not so tired-he would win easily, because mah roster is bad

I agree

6 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think this is one of my concerns about the game plan overall. Turn one ends up being quite defensive, so you're not necessarily well set up for turns 2/3. Of course, Yan Lo is meant to be a late game powerhouse, so maybe this is the plan.

What you said about Yan Lo is true. Normally on Turn 1 he has very little to do outside of Concentrate and maybe push a few models 2" - all he needs is to make sure he's in position to go crazy on turn 3, prior to that he's just helping push models around, getting into position himself, and concentrating.

Like I mentioned before, I don't think this crew is doomed to stay in it's deployment zone turn 1. NSE unfortunately played it like this, most of turns 1 & 2 summoning behind his front line rather than pressing forward, including practically pushing Toshiro into the back corner when bombing him.

Consider the following efficiency adjustments:

• Make sure Anna is out of the way - she doesn't get moved by Spirit Flute, so you don't want her blocking other models' free moves.
• Instead of focusing with Chiaki, walk her forward and then charge her with Izamu. This gets you 4" of movement on Izamu and drops Chiaki's corpse 5" further up the board. Izamu still gets 3 attacks vs relent, and if you Black Joker a damage flip, charge Chiaki with Toshiro to finish her off instead of D's Gifting for his 2nd AP.
• Toshiro with his spare AP should either walk forward to push his own corpse further up, or D's Gift the Ashigaru, moving it 3" forward
• Push Toshiro mostly 3" forward with Anna when you blow him up, this puts his corpse further up the board
• When Chiaki comes back, she can charge Toshiro (or someone else) and use the built-in attack trigger to get 3" of extra movement. Then Flute to push everyone 3" forward.
• Walk the slow Ashigaru forward - don't concentrate unless you're specifically keeping them near a friendly to Take the Hit. This lets you Beckoning Call your own models with Chiaki next turn. They'll probably have a focus from Toshiro anyway.
• The final Gokudo can bonus action to push 3", then charge Chiaki and hit her twice. This deals 2x2 damage minimum, plus 1 poison from Toshiro leaves Chiaki with 2 Health - perfect for Yan Lo or Anna to kill her with one action Turn 2. This lets you Flute, kill her, summon her back, and Flute again plus draw 2 cards from Nefarious Pact, 2 cards from Reanimate Corpus, and Beckoning Call up to 4 times. Plus when you replace-summon her back, she keeps the Gokudo's focus.
• Don't plan to do the whole combo again on Turn 2. If the opportunity presents itself, go ahead, but gauge whether it's time to start going aggressive. Killing Chiaki and summoning her back for a third corpse is usually enough, as you can't have more than 3 Ashigaru anyway and you should be moving far from table edges by now.
• If an Ashigaru dies or you think one might die Turn 2, activate Toshiro as late as possible in the turn, and kill Chiaki with Anna to summon a mindless zombie. If the Ashigaru does die, you can resummon him while the mindless zombie can move 8" on your next turn for summoning or bombing or both.

Turn 1 with JUST 2 Flutes, your entire crew (sans Anna) is 6" up the board minimum. That's pretty comparable to your typical Walk-Concentrate Turn 1 when both players are afraid of overextending. That's not mentioning the 2 Flutes on turn 2, or the Beckoning Calls, or the D's Gifts, or any Walk actions. I'd hardly call the crew slow or overly defensive.

15 hours ago, Scoffer said:

Especially the last one, that he lost 1:7 after his engine failed to start turn one. It's a great illustration for "the only true way to play".

So, after viewing that video, I can confirm that the loss was NOT because the "engine failed to start turn one."
It's true the engine didn't work perfectly, NotSoEmpty was unlucky enough to hit that 3% chance of "no 10+ in hand" on turn 1, meaning he was only able to summon 1 ashigaru.

However the loss of the game primarily came from Turns 2 & 3 where NotSoEmpty made several key mistakes:
1) Positioning improperly and then blowing up Toshiro, unable to bring him back (this effectively made NSE play 10-15 stones down if you include the future value of Ashigaru)

2) A slight activation order mistake, preventing him from touching the strategy marker at the end of Turn 2, putting him behind.

3) Not "Take the Hit"ing when Izamu got shot, getting him pulled into range of Rami and subsequently killed.

4) Playing too defensively, focusing too much on the engine and hiding from gunfire for 2 whole turns instead of pressuring the gunline+support crew which he could easily out-combat if he closed the gap. In the middle of Turn 2, there was maybe 1 model outside of his deployment zone and he spent Izamu's entire Turn 2 just to kill Chiaki a second time.

It's unfortunate, because NotSoEmpty made quite a few great moves during that game as well. Towards the mid-late game YanLo got up and running and he finally entered into close combat and started to win back some ground, but the few mistakes he made early on just made that gap too large to close. I felt really bad because you could hear in his voice that he realized this and started to beat himself up
 

55 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, I know. I use Toshiro OOK sometimes, and once even pulled an Ashigaru OOK to blunt an alpha strike plan when I couldn't take Toshiro xD They're just not on the same level as summoning say Goryo + Ikiryo or even Ikiryo + Drowned IMO.

I struggle with this consideration myself, as well. I LOVE Toshiro and want to take him + Emissary or him + Gravedigger often, but find myself considering it's probably better just to take Kirai. Most of the time, the decision falls down to more flexible summoning vs the +flip aura, but even so I think Kirai comes out on top more often than not. It's just a problem with Malifaux allowing double master, really.

In this crew the contest is in Toshiro's favor, I believe. Yan Lo being able to draw 6 cards T1, the retainer-only pushes, re-summon Toshiro later in the game if he dies, utilizing Toshiro's Reliquary, some of the bonkers interactions with Strat and Schemes I mentioned above. Plus you have Anna and all of her disruption and damage, not a silly gravedigger who does nothing but drop corpses all game

At worst I think Kirai and Toshiro-Anna are equal choices in this crew, and if it truly is an equal choice I'd rather play Toshiro if only so not EVERY crew I run is either Kirai or has Kirai tacked on.

39 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This seems pretty awesome! Definitely will put it on my 'to attempt' list at some point. I haven't learned to play Yan Lo yet, so will be a while. However, I think it is worth emphasising there are some pretty big costs/downsides:

• TONS of actions. Most of his models don't seem to leave the deployment zone turn 1. I can't imagine doing that (but I tend to favour very mobile, very aggressive strategies).
• Overall, costs lots of tempo (as Adran points out as I am typing this).
• Requires some serious gas from your hand (two 10+s to summon Ashigaru? Particularly since the card draw doesn't happen until halfway through the combo).
  • The ability to use soulstones for suits helps of course
• If you're wanting a summoning value engine, why not just take Kirai? (Although granted, she probably needs a nerf OOK - she shouldn't be able to Blood and Wind twice in a turn OOK).
• Vulnerable to disruption - I don't see how to disrupt it yet, but I'm sure more experienced players than I could throw a wrench in those plans (I imagine Plaag you must have some serious presto-chango opportunities there with Colette).
• Possibly other things.

Maybe I'm just undervaluing having those extra reliquaries floating around. As I said, I'll need to attempt it/practice it some day on both sides. After the core box comes out, probably!

In theory, it's not even that slow.

Yan Lo has a third action to Growing Power to give nearly the entire crew a 2" push, and the second Chiaki walks to catch up to the bulk of the crew and uses Spirit Flute to give the entire crew a 3" move (plus the first Chiaki also uses Spirit Flute). The soul porter still gets 2x Empower Ancestor (with all that card draw, you'll easily be able to guarantee both 4's) for 2 extra Mv" moves.

You should really take a closer look at Ashigaru, because although they're technically 5ss models, they easily pull the weight of a 7ss model I would say. They have a 2" engagement range, the extended reach ability, an average attack but with two of the best damage triggers in the game, and 5 Wds with Armor 1, H2K, and a built in bonus action heal that can't fail if you target an ally. And they get plus flips from Toshiro. They're summoned with 3 wounds, but can immediately heal and Toshiro can also bonus action them T1 if you'd like. Typically, a 7ss model is at risk of dying in 2 hits, but will often take 3. Ashigaru almost guarantee they'll take a minimum of 3 hits to die, plus they can't be charged, plus if they keep healing above H2K they can live indefinitely.

Two reliquaries are phenomenal if Chiaki can split her own soul. I'm not sure if she can - is she considered in the range of her own (Pulse)4? Otherwise it's just a guarantee to get Izamu's amazing Reliquary onto someone, and Toshiro's is nice to have on someone (probably Izamu) to gain the benefits of Flesh Ascendant, Instill Youth, and Yan Lo's Demise, if that comes up.

The chances of drawing a 10+ with your first 7 cards (6+Chiaki) is 93%, or 97% if you stone for 2 cards. After all the shenanigans, you drew another 6 cards. The chances of not having 2x 10+s is tiny.

Disruption should only be worrying in the case of Colette, I think. Normal Lures aren't scary - Yan Lo has a walk of 4 and can easily Paths himself back into place with his extra AP. In the case of something like a Nekima and 2 Matures smashing into you T1, that's something that'll have to be play tested, it could go either way.

37 minutes ago, Whut said:

I just took a look - here is the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShQb08ZXMeU&feature=emb_logo
 

• The combo is this:
• Take Chiaki, Toshiro, Gokudo, Anna, Izamu
• Chiaki activates, Splits Izamu's Soul, draws a card
• Izamu Activates, Kill Chiaki, give Reliquary to Yan Lo, drop corpse marker
• Toshiro activates, (kill Chiaki if Izamu Failed) Summons off of Chiaki's Corpse, gives someone Focus (Req 10 crow)
• Anna Activates, blows up Toshiro, draw a card, drop corpse marker, give Reliquary to Gokudo (Req 4)
• Yan Lo Activates...
• Yan Lo replaces Gokudo with Toshiro, Gokudo's ability brings back a new Gokudo, draws 2 cards
• Yan Lo bonus action to give Chiaki's Reliquary to the new Gokudo  (Req 6 Tome)
• Yan Lo replaces new Gokudo with Chiaki, new Gokudo's ability brings back a new new Gokudo, draws 2 cards
• New Toshiro Activates, Summons off of his own Corpse, gives someone Focus, walks (Req 10 Crow)
• New Chiaki activates, Split Soul something, draw a card again

 

• Spoils are 2 Ashigaru and 2 Split Souls on turn 1 (and the final Gokudo Summon can be wherever you want, kinda a "teleport")
• Costs are nothing outside of SS used for Suits (max 3 SS), loss of positioning T1, and having to take Anna OOK (who is a great model anyway)
• Slight additional downside is that with these 5 models, you only have 8ss remaining to pick up any tech choice or schemer

 

It's... uhhh... it's pretty insane. My synergy/value boner is throbbing but my game balance boner is limp.

The only downside is that Black Jokering Anna's bonus action stops the combo and leaves you with only 1 Ashigaru, and Black Jokering Yan Lo's bonus action can leave you without a Chiaki at all until the following turn, but the chances of this are slim and can even be mitigated entirely if you take The Whisper.

 

Other quite INSANE interactions:

1) In Recover Evidence, Intel Tokens on Chiaki and Toshiro get dropped in your deployment zone (and on the Gokudo if you have enough extra actions to take it down to 1 Wd), making them very hard to reach. But your crew only has 5 viable models to place tokens on (6 if you take another model with the last 8 ss) meaning you're probably leaving 2-3 strategy markers in your deployment zone behind your Undead Horde

2) Your opponent can't Take Prisoner or Vendetta on Chiaki and Toshiro (Vendetta is 1 point max)

3) You can cheat Vendetta and Catch & Release on the Gokudo-Turned-Toshiro

On the other hand, don't play this against Colette. You're going to kill Toshiro and Chiaki and suddenly Colette walk, walk, and *pop* Yan Lo is on the enemy half of the table

Long story short, have fun for the next 2-6 months until Rebuild Corpus is Eratta'd to require at least 2-3 Ascendant upgrades

I just took a look - here is the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShQb08ZXMeU&feature=emb_logo
 

• The combo is this:
• Take Chiaki, Toshiro, Gokudo, Anna, Izamu
• Chiaki activates, Splits Izamu's Soul, draws a card
• Izamu Activates, Kill Chiaki, give Reliquary to Yan Lo, drop corpse marker
• Toshiro activates, (kill Chiaki if Izamu Failed) Summons off of Chiaki's Corpse, gives someone Focus (Req 10 crow)
• Anna Activates, blows up Toshiro, draw a card, drop corpse marker, give Reliquary to Gokudo (Req 4)
• Yan Lo Activates...
• Yan Lo replaces Gokudo with Toshiro, Gokudo's ability brings back a new Gokudo, draws 2 cards
• Yan Lo bonus action to give Chiaki's Reliquary to the new Gokudo  (Req 6 Tome)
• Yan Lo replaces new Gokudo with Chiaki, new Gokudo's ability brings back a new new Gokudo, draws 2 cards
• New Toshiro Activates, Summons off of his own Corpse, gives someone Focus, walks (Req 10 Crow)
• New Chiaki activates, Split Soul something, draw a card again

• Spoils are 2 Ashigaru and 2 Split Souls on turn 1 (and the final Gokudo Summon can be wherever you want, kinda a "teleport")
• Costs are nothing outside of SS used for Suits (max 3 SS), loss of positioning T1, and having to take Anna OOK (who is a great model anyway)
• Slight additional downside is that with these 5 models, you only have 8ss remaining to pick up any tech choice or schemer

It's... uhhh... it's pretty insane. My synergy/value boner is throbbing but my game balance boner is limp.

The only downside is that Black Jokering Anna's bonus action stops the combo and leaves you with only 1 Ashigaru, and Black Jokering Yan Lo's bonus action can leave you without a Chiaki at all until the following turn, but the chances of this are slim and can even be mitigated entirely if you take The Whisper.

If a Yokai uses it's bonus action, gaining a Flicker Token, and uses From Beyond to get a + for the duel, gaining another Flicker Token, does Ephemeral Warriors trigger twice after the action is completed, allowing you to place within 3" twice?

Similarly, if the Yokai uses it's attack action with a bonus from From Beyond, and then triggers Unnatural Speed, gaining an additional Flicker token, does the Yokai get to place within 3" twice before resolving the extra Attack Action?

Hey all,

I haven't seen any Hoffman discussion, let's start some. It seems to me like he's more of a beater/supporter in this addition who spams Armor +2 models and then heals them for 3 and just overruns opposing crews who can't run enough anti-armor to compensate.

With Melissa Kore and Envy the crew puts out enough ranged damage to be a threat, Peacekeeper is nigh unkillable, and Soulstone Miners as always help with schemes that require mobility.

A thought that has come to mind for me is "Let's say Parker Barrows goes against Hoffman. What does Parker's crew even do other than plink for 1 damage and then get overwhelmed? It's just too much armor to get through."

What are some of your thoughts?

I'm available after 7pm GMT. I'll post in that FB group

Hey All,

Long time M2E player (Books 2 until 4)
Looking for someone to Vassal with me and give me a tutorial of M3E, if possible.

Availability is Mon-Thurs after 3pm EST

Please reply here:

Thanks in advance

I don't see Yu as very useful for his enormous cost outside of very specific scheme pools or Brewmaster...

Question for all of you - what do you all think of Lust?

Asami's crew suffers from having virtually no WP attacks in it, virtually no ranged capabilities  (outside of summoned Obsidian Oni), and has two GIGANTIC threats in the form of Yasunori and Asami herself to keep pressure off of Lust while she hopefully slows, repositions, and deals passive damage to enemies.

In theory, Lust is an ultra powerful model, how does she work in practice?

Worth it?

11 hours ago, JDAntoine said:

Depends on your definition of one dimensional, predictable, yes.

You literally cannot argue this, it's just false. Guild is absolutely in no way predictable.

Like I said before: 

When I go against guild, I have to prepare for EVERYTHING. I have to prepare for the "cross the board on turn 1 or immediately lose" scenario against Sonnia, for Perdita's mix of absurdly high stats, dangerous shooting, and even more dangerous melee, for Hoffman's ability to throw 2-3 of the most buffed-up, scariest, toughest beaters in the game WITH strong mobility, healing, and obey support. For McCabe's ability to send four tiny fast scheme runners out while still spending the bulk of his ss on core central models who he then buffs and fights alongside. And now for Nellie who will virtually never be out activated because she can delay her turn and effectively paralyze  (5" push plus slow is effectively paralysis) AND remove from objectives up to 2-3 models per turn, ensuring it is virtually impossible to score Extraction/Stash/etc against her. (Not to mention all the other ridiculous stuff she can do)

All of these end in completely different games and you need to be prepared for ALL of them.

I would question the accuracy of the statistics, for some of the same reasons you've stated - the new models are new and unmastered, and many of the models have not been released. There's quite a learning grace period in Malifaux (most people I imagine only play a couple times per week or less) as opposed to an online game where top players adapt to new options within a few days of continuous play. And many options don't get released immediately or take time to paint.

Nellie is not an easy master, but I do claim she is an absurdly powerful one within the theoretical world of two perfect players facing off.

I suggest you create your own thread to explore the following, and I'd be happy to discuss there (is there a way to tag me?):

Would you want to list out every option and decide how many are "viable" and compare? How much fewer would I take for us to be considered to have "limited choices?" Does, for example, Hoffman having access to half of the Arcanist faction factor in? 

Why do you feel like we have limited options? Do you feel this way because of a lack of different play STYLES, or a lack of viable models? There's a big difference.

But please, this is a tangent on the topic of this thread.

8 minutes ago, JDAntoine said:

Awnser: No, it isnt.

As above, imbalance is the key. Decide what is allowed to be the best at one thing, apply this pro with a con. 

Balance is impossible to archive and this is also not my aim. Adding the same quantity for different pros and cons is

 

At this point I'd prefer to put this to rest. You think this is a problem, I dont.

I'm much more concerned with balance at the highest level of play amongst the best choices between factions rather than achieving perfect internal balance. 

The topic of "Are we underpowered [compared with the other factions]" is what I would like to discuss 

28 minutes ago, JDAntoine said:

Challenge accepted

Balance is irrelevant, a good spread of imbalance quantity is. Creating tons of viable options is most certainly posssible.

The problems start once you stick every good rule you have on one model, named Fransisco or Austringer. Spread those great abilities in faction and you create viability.

Good luck with the challenge, even chess isn't fully balanced.

You already have tons of viable options, just some are much more situational than others. And then you have other, unviable options. This exists, again, in every game. Take Hearthstone or MTG - for every good card in the game that sees competitive play there are several which are total trash and several more which are only situationally good. You don't HAVE to take them in Standard play, and thus no one does.

You may say "well those bad cards exist for formats like Arena or Draft" to which I say bad models still exist for thematic story-based play which plenty of people enjoy, even if I'd never be caught dead playing an intentionally sub-optimal crew for fluff reasons.

But I digress.

As long as you have options, some options will be simply more useful than others for high% of scheme pools. But even so, you still have a variety. Francisco is NOT 100% auto-take, Executioner and Phiona Gage both give him a run for his money. Two watchers also gives him a run for his money if you want scheming. A Reporter + Brutal Effigy also gives him a run for his money if you want an alternate way of protecting your master while also gaining a little bit of control and utility and an extra activation rather than more combat power.

In a McCabe crew it could be argued that a Witchling Thrall is outright better than Francisco thanks to synergies.

What more do you want?

Sure, Nellie will be an excellent master, and overall I think she IS a better master than Sonnia.

However Sonnia doesn't care. In the paraphrased words of Duncan Bilz ages ago - "Fine, enjoy your 3 VP from Frame for Murder. When you have two models left on the table on turn 3 I'll start earning my way towards 10 VP and you can't stop me."

Claim jump is always available, meaning at MINIMUM I'd say a Sonnia crew is guarenteed 5 VP - at least 3 from Strat and 2 from Claim jump.

Anyway my point is that Sonnia is still "fine." Like I said before, alongside a now better McCabe, a super strong Nellie, and still good Perdita and Hoffman (just avoid Viks!) Guild is in a very good place for Wave 4 & GG2017.

_________

As far as JDAntoine, you will never ever achieve a fully balanced game with all viable options. Never. Look even at League of Legends, which has been around for nearly 8 years with constant bi-weekly updates. In League there is CLEARLY more powerful champions and more powerful combinations than others, and a significant portion of the roster never gets used (or gets used like, ONCE in each tournament as a tech choice). There's always some underpowered champion, theres always a subset of champions which are considered the currently most powerful.

Granted, the balance has been better in recent time, but yet again, this is in a game with constant biweekly updates forced on all players involuntarily for over 7 years. This sort of update is impossible in a tabletop game.

Not to mention that the more you explore  and expand design space, the more chance you have to break something. It isn't as easy as "let's add more deck manipulation!" There's a lot of consequences that can arise from such a change.

Not to mention, updates are quite costly for a tabletop game, where a unit or model will run a player 30-50 dollars. In a game like League if your favorite champion gets Cuddled you're a little upset but life goes on and you pick up a new one. If my collection becomes too weak, I've basically just threw 150 dollars or more and hours upon hours of painting down the drain.

I take issue with several proposals in this thread:

1) Death Marshals are underpowered, therefore they need a buff.

There is one clear answer to this - who cares? Every faction has many less than stellar options. Ressers have Draugr, Carrion Effigy, Canine Remains, Dead Rider, Onryo, etc. They don't care much, they just take their better options.

10T have quite possibly one of the worst minion selections in the game - High and Fermented River Monks are awful, Wastrels are awful, Oiran, Thunder Archers, Torakage are awful. I could go on.

Union Miners, Large Arachnids, Most Gamin suck, even with Sandeep.

Young Nephilim, Beckoners, Bloodwretches, Wicked Dolls suck

Wouku Raiders, Freikorpsmen, Desperate Mercenaries, etc are all garbage.

Bushwackers, Wild Boars, Bayou Gators all suck.

The list only quadruples or more if you begin to include Enforcer and Henchman options. So why do we care specifically about Death Marshals? Just take Witchlings, Thralls, Reporters (these things are NUTS), Brutal Effigy, etc.

2) Guild lists are more predictable than other factions' lists.

Absolutely not true. When I go against guild, I have to prepare for EVERYTHING. I have to prepare for the "cross the board on turn 1 or immediately lose" scenario against Sonnia, for Perdita's mix of absurdly high stats, dangerous shooting, and even more dangerous melee, for Hoffman's ability to throw 2-3 of the most buffed-up, scariest beaters in the game WITH strong mobility, healing, and obey support. For McCabe's ability to send four tiny fast scheme runners out while still spending the bulk of his ss on core central models who he then buffs and fights alongside. And now for Nellie who will virtually never be out activated because she can delay her turn and effectively paralyze  (5" push plus slow is effectively paralysis) AND remove from objectives up to 2-3 models per turn, ensuring it is virtually impossible to score Extraction/Stash/etc against her. (Not to mention all the other ridiculous stuff she can do)

All of these end in completely different games and you need to be prepared for ALL of them.

3) Guild need help to remain viable in GG2017

I still don't see how anyone can think this. Sonnia is still almost as powerfully "win on turn 2" gamebreaking as before, just with Austringers slightly turned down and perhaps a desire to keep Papa closer. She still 9 times out of 10 outright wins the game against anyone if she gets two attacks (with a plus to damage) against any model in the opponent's crew.

McCabe just got MUCH MUCH more competitive with the addition of Thralls. These things are crazy and McCabe can give them Reactivate.

Perdita got no worse aside from no more Austringer cheese, which was never required in the first place.

Nellie dominates in any Area-based scheme and perpetually controls the board. You will NEVER out control her. She, at any moment, can delay 5+ actions, then push a friendly Executioner 10", give it fast, and then let it charge you for 4 attacks on ANY model through any gap in your defensive line (nearly guarenteed to kill Reva, for instance) she reverse-obeys, pushing you into her models for free attacks, she effectively shuts down any enemy beater entirely by perpetually pushing and slowing them, she herself as a (0) pushes around and places scheme markers for free, etc.

The 2017 schemes are also fair game for guild. The new always-take is decent for McCabe and Nellie. The new Dig-Their-Graves is a Phiona Gage with Transparance lottery. Frame for Murder is guarenteed with an Executioner. Field Reporters are better than Performers when it comes to removing enemy scheme markers, as they are cheaper, replace the marker with your own, are more mobile, more tough (disguise is gold), and more versatile (slowing, debuffing, pushing, or damaging an enemy from 8" away while being able to choose your suit is more universally useful than pushing closer and sometimes paralyzing when the stars align).

Guild as a whole are in a better position now than they have EVER been before, hands down.