Whut

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Still, demonstrates that Ivan's summons are definitely a thing that your opponent has to give you permission to do (which they probably will, since it is a lot of work to deny). But summoning Brockens requires the right cards in hand to win the duel against the critical target.

Ivan will have to play very smart to summon Daevas and Spectres consistently. Of course a 12 or 13 in hand is a (nearly) guaranteed summon, but I expect Moderate Crows to be a significant source of summoning as well - not announcing your intentions with a stone, winning the duel on the flip, and then cheating down after your opponent chooses not to cheat. The crew is hungry for a few Crows in the hand - between Ivan's summoning, Mordrake's Claimed By Shadow, and Gibson's Burn Out.

Ivan will have to utilize his friends to help him get those better summons out. Rook can reveal your opponent's hand so you know what his highest card is and force some discards with Pressure/Execute. Operatives can draw you 2 cards attacking an enemy twice from up to 11" away. Gibson is the most valuable. He can draw you 2 cards with a double Surge while healing, of course grabs you a severe with Tools when he activates, loads Ivan up with Distracted, can give him Focused+Fast for another shot using Burn Out, and most importantly can force a negative WP flip if standing within 6" of a distracted enemy for a near-guaranteed summon against a non-SS-user. I expect Austera & Twigge to be a common take for Ivan in scheme marker pools. Her Discard-two-draw-two will beef up your hand considerably and she can discard some weaks in your deck with her aura as Umbra models heal sometimes, all while being decently tanky, fast, dropping schemes everywhere (which Ivan can turn into more Shadows if nothing else), and sniping enemies for 5 damage with a focused attack.

At the end of the day though, if you get unlucky, Nocturnes are pretty decent summons. Lots of models in the game have Wp4 which are easy to summon against, and summoning in a Nocturne near a Shadow Marker comes with two Stat5 1/3/4 attacks with plus to duel and damage. More so, Ivan can sometimes kill his target after summoning and the Nocturne is left free to walk 12" away to scheme, or can charge a different target (and drop a Shadow Marker in the process, providing his own positives), or can Displace some enemies near Shadow Markers, giving them Distracted.

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One thing I noticed - I think DUA/Umbra is going to hurt against large quantities of Armor+1 models. With the exception of Ivan's main attack, the entire crew is packed with 2/3/4 damage tracks and 2 damage AoE effects, which struggle against Arm+1 models as those usually aren't slouching in Health (like most Arm+2) or Stats (like most H2W). The crew has almost no 3 weak, 4 moderate, or 5-6 severe damage which is the most common counters to Arm+1, and even Broken Spectres' damage track of 2/3/4 is only effectively 3/4/5 against an Arm+1 model (really shining against Arm+2 and SS users).

Ivan will have to get great mileage on his own attacks, Spectres' place effects, Mordrake's Bury, and Rook's Execute to incapacitate or kill those sorts of threats, or use Ivan's and Eva's superior mobility and anti-scheming power to scheme and counter-scheme while Umbra models hold up the enemy.

God forbid Ivan ever face off against Transmortis though. Like, that's on the hard-counter level of "I wouldn't even want to try it." Summon next to me? Anna says no! Attack my hand? I draw tons of cards! You want to do damage? Arm+1 and H2W! Lots of good triggers? Stunned! Mordrake? Manos says hello! Distracted or Concealment? I give my entire crew Focused!" Yuck.

Cute idea I had - if you take Calypso Mk II, on Turn 1 you can shove one of your summoned Eyes and Ears in there permanently. It's definitely not as threatening as when Beebe is inside, but for 7 Stones you get a Df6 Wp3 Arm+2 6 Health body, Mv4 Unimpeded Walk with nimble on an 8+, and essentially two activations per turn, allowing it to potentially Walk 20" and then Interact (or 12" without the two 8's required). Nothing stops the EAE from making Calypso take the Interact action either. When Calypso dies, it explodes as normal, leaving a 1-2 Health EAE behind.

20 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Love it when synergy for a crew comes together!

I love AND hate it. On the one hand, having very strong synergies is really good for obvious reasons. On the other hand, if the synergies really are THAT strong, I don't get to play around and field synergies this keyword has with the rest of the faction, and in cases where one of those choices are a no-brainer (say, a Botanist in Corrupted Ley Lines against Zipp) I now might have to remove a piece of this uber-synergy machine - which feels bad man.

Oh well, such is Malifaux

When list building I consistently find myself "If you give a mouse a cookie"-ing into taking all or nearly all of the DUA models, just because they work so well together.

Well, I'm playing DUA/Umbra, so I have Ivan and Mordrake. I can't pass up on taking Eva, she's just too good. And now as if Ivan and Mordrake alone wasn't enough for me to take Gibson, Eva seals that deal. Now that I have Gibson passing out Distracted+2 to all DUA on first turn (and again later) and I'll be putting a lot of hand pressure on my opponent with all these models, I might as well take Rook to completely obliterate the opposing hand and/or Execute some stuff. Huh.... well now that I have Ivan, Eva, and Rook who will be dropping scheme markers near enemy models and Gibson giving Distracted, I gotta take an Operative, right?

So for the past 5ish days I've been calling the Keyword "DOO-AH" to myself like some idiot until I realized it's much more likely to be D.U.A.

What does DUA stand for? I assume its Detective U? Association since all the Doo-ah models look very detective-y

Transmutation can be used on:

• Burning
• Poison
• Distracted
• Injured
• Focused
• Shielded (note damage comes first, so you'll rarely get more than 1 here if anything)

So most of the time you will use it to remove Focused (or another condition the opposing crew benefits from), or remove the injured/poison you yourself place on the enemy to give beatsticks distracted, give injured to enemies you're dogpiling, or give burning/poison to enemies who will die from it or who you're just looking to deal some damage over time to.

You can also use Nexus to attack a friendly model,  likely dealing min 1 damage (which can be transferred away) but replacing a negative condition with focused +2 or shielded +2.

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Another thing I'd like to point out is that with the Poison and Burning (through Transmutation) the crew can put out, and the ease with which WALegion and Siphon Power lets you control single points of damage, Cadmus are VERY good at killing their own models to conditions. Take Prisoner and future schemes like it which require an enemy stay alive will be easy for Cadmus to deny the second point.

23 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Tanennbaum is great with Cadmus. Honestly, Tannenbaum is just supergood in any crew, but Cadmus also has enough healing to get the best of him.

He's also a model that uses a 13 to score a point, only for that is already OP.

Uses a 13 to score a point? What exactly do you mean? You still have to fulfill the new scheme's conditions to score VP, so I can see this being useful in some pools but definitely not the primary reason to take him since it's so inconsistent 

After taking a look though - wow, definitely lots of synergy 

Yea so if, lets say a nest hits an enemy (within 1 inch) and gives it a parasite token, Nexus 12" away can attack it from the Nest, then attack it from itself for 1/3/4 + discard or 2 irreducible + Trigger at Stat 7 each. That's a bit gross.

Relenting against Seamus seems amazing and only requires one Token for the whole game

What do you think of spelleaters? I'm not impressed but really want to be. Friendly models can't declare triggers against them. They're walk 5 with no movement actions or abilities. Their damage track is weak and flat. The 6" discard bubble only gives burning or poison, which might do 1 or 2 significant damage all game and they don't really want to be nor have the options to get that close to the enemy to begin with. They have to focus constantly to ignore concealment or friendly fire. On the bright side, their bonus action is awesome and stealing enemy suits guarentees you'll be triggering something on every attack. 

1 hour ago, Xekros said:

From what I can see, though I may well have missed something, Nightsilk's Create Web, then Nexus' Exoskeletal Connection x 3. Not the most efficient, but it does get 4 web markers in 2 activations, and you can still do the summon, as that's a bonus. That said, I'm not sure you really want to be hard summoning turn 1 in your deployment, as the summons are pretty slow and seem designed to be up in the enemy crew as much as possible for their pulses and such. That said, that's the only web marker generation I can see in the keyword, which seems oddly sparse. I would've thought at least the Shambling Nests would have it?

We aren't forced to Summon in our deployment zone. Nexus can summon up to 12" away using Omni Influence, and Meredith can be moved up before she activates using Exoskeletal Connection, Lure, or other pushes. Alternatively, one EyesAndEars can move back towards Meredith, and on Turn 2 the resulting Berserker will likely have a Parasite Token to push 6" towards

Marker Options (And "Costs"):

• Scheme Markers
• 3x Nexus > Exoskeletal Connection (Place Target (Unless Staggered!))
• 2x Archivist > Inaudible Whisper > Tome Trigger (2 Min Damage, +1 From Siphon)
• 2x Nightsilk > Web Strand > Tome Trigger (Staggered, Stunned, 1 From Siphon For Archivist Font of Knowledge)
• 1x Nightsilk > Create Web

I see something like this: (for Corner Deployment, there's a variant where you can get 12" up the board but take a little more damage)

1. Berserker activates (Can also be done with a nest which starts 8" forward, which might be better if you don't need both Nests elsewhere)
   1. Moves 8" up the board
   2. Drops a Scheme Marker (Total 1)
2. Archivist Activates
   1. Font of Knowledge Nightsilk for Tomes,
   2. Whisper Berserker for 2 damage + draw a card + Web Marker (Total 2)
   3. Bonus action to place 4" (+Base Size) Forward
   4. (Siphon Power goes on three of Nexus, Meredith, Nightsilk, Effigy who will all heal it off using Meredith's Aura)
3. Nightsilk activates, places 8" up the board next to the Web
   1. Bonus Action create a Web (Total 3)
   2. Web Strand Berserker twice to create two more Webs (Total 5)
   3. Berserker is now Stunned and Staggered
4. Intrepid Effigy activates
   1. Moves Nexus forward 4"
   2. Moves Meredith forward 4"
5. Nexus activates.
   1. Citizens of Malifaux from Berserker - summon 3 EAE, removing scheme and 2 Webs(Total 2)
      1. One of these should be from a Web Marker behind the Berserker such that the resulting EAE is within 4" of Nexus for Siphon Power
   2. Exoskeleton from EAE, targeting Meredith. Draw a card. (Total possibly +1 if it's close enough but I won't count it)
   3. Exoskeleton from Meredith, targeting Berserker. Berserker doesn't move. Shed Skin to clear conditions. Drop Web (Total 3)
   4. Last AP free to fix mistakes or Focus
6. Meredith activates, Creates a Berserker2 who has 6 Health, removing a Web (Total 2)
   1. Bonus Action move Nexus or someone else forward 4"
   2. Focus or Move
   3. Drop a scheme marker (Total 3)
7. New Berserker heals 1 (Total 7) and starts gunning towards the enemy
8. Eyes and Ears x2 heal 1 if applicable and either spread out, lure some stuff, or gun it towards the enemy
9. You're perfectly set up to summon 3 eyes and ears on Turn 2

Notable Observations:

• Always always always always take Flush with Cash. It protects Nexus (or Meredith, or Archivist), dis-incentivizes killing EyesAndEars or rewards you when your opponent does, and will almost always make 2+ stones back. Also, if enemies kill enemy models with Parasite tokens (Will of Cadmus "Obey") you get free stones.
• If Nexus dies and Meredith gets the Cadmus Upgrade, she activates twice which lets you summon 2 Berserker Husks per turn.
• Cryptologists unfortunately can't make extra Berserker Husks. Meredith's ability is "When this model activates", not "at the start of this model's activation"
• Eyes and Ears require a 5/8/11/RJ card for 1/2/3/4 respectively - Aim for 3 on Turn 1
• Irreducible damage can still be "We are Legion"ed onto enemies, even if you don't get the reduction.
• We are Legion can be "chained" - Enemy is 12" away from Nexus. Nexus uses siphon power on Model A, Model A transfers to Model B, Model B transfers to Enemy. Same with Healing. Remember only once per model per activation.
• Shambling Nests are crazy strong. 8 Wd H2W, heal 2 per attack, 2" engagement, From the Shadows, can be made to interact, spread Parasite tokens. They can clog up the enemy, or babysit objectives, or just be placed centrally as nodes for Nexus to attack from.
• Eyes and Ears can babysit Authority Markers next to impassable terrain, such that enemies can't place in base contact with them, while still affecting the conflict with Lures from 12" away.
• On turn 1, Archivist can Siphon Power to Inaudible Whisper > Draw a card & Web but deals 2 damage to friendlies, and/or Font of Knowledge on Nightsilk Creeper who can Web Strand to Web twice on the same model, stunning and staggering it.
• Transmutation can be used on friendly models (at the cost of health) for Focus +2. Doing this with Nexus also gives them a Parasite Token which has no downside in non-mirror matches but does give Berserker Husks +2" on Creep Along
• Expect Will of Cadmus to be around Stat 4-5 at first,  getting up to Stat 5-6 on Turn 2 with some parasite tokens and lots of EyesAndEars. As the game goes on and models die, I expect this will quickly fall to around 3-4 by Turn 4.
• Meredith can Rancid Transplant Fast or Focused off enemy models with Parasite Tokens and onto your own. Or Focused from Eyes and Ears
• The crew is squishy at worst, Urami at best. They have pseudo-armor from We Are Legion, but this doesn't always mitigate damage, just spread it around (especially at range), and can only be used once per activation per model. Tagging enemies with Parasite Tokens is essential to have roughly the same effect as Incorporeal and Vengeance. This also means the crew will perform better against melee-heavy crews than ranged.
• Resistance Triggers can be laughed at between Berserker Husks shutting them off completely and Spelleaters eating all suits.

Notable OOK Synergies:

• Intrepid Effigy/Emissary is going to be strong in the crew. Not only can the healing be moved around, but the crew has a bunch of simple duels requiring 5's and 6's. Also Lead the Way gives another source of out of activation movement.
• Botanists can easily get +2 grow tokens on Turn 1 when you remove Web Markers with Nexus and Meredith to summon.
• Lamplighters can Push models 3" and heal 1/2/3 (within 2" of a Web or Lamp), Push healed models 1" once per activation, has Unimpeded (for Webs), Don't Mind Me, 2" Engagement, and Lit Markers give positive flips to friendly models. Squishy though, and 7+1 cost.
• Harata Ngaatoro turns Poison into Distracted, gives minuses to Wp duels, hits really hard, and can drop 3 scheme markers on turn 1 for summoning while moving himself or friendlies 3" three times. I don't think it's enough to take him, but interesting.
• Mr Ngaatoro shuts down SS use and triggers for poisoned enemies in 3, has an Obey with some strong triggers, reveals your opponent's hand, but most importantly gives all friendly models +1 Stat against other friendly models within 6". This effectively lowers some of your TNs, and improves your Stat with Cadmus against Parasite Token'd models, giving Nexus Stat 8, Archivist Stat 7, Nightsilk Stat 8, and Spelleaters Stat 7 with their primary attacks.
• Winston Finnigan is amazing as always, and in this crew can charge and double attack first turn to drop 2 scheme markers to summon from for 2 damage on himself. You can suffer the slow or remove it with Nexus, and heal Finnigan with Intrepid Effigy or Meredith

Questions:

1. When drawing LoS/Range from another model, can a model attack itself? Can a model attack the model it's drawing LoS/Range from with a melee attack?
2. Does a model need to have Wd missing to "We Are Legion" healing onto another model?
3. Can Transmutation remove/give Fast, Slow, Adversary, Stunned, Staggered or do those not count as "conditions with a value"?
4. What do you guys think is the best line for generating 3 Schemes or Webs + 1 Corpse or Web on first turn for Summoning 2 Eyes and Ears and 1 Berserker Husk?

1 hour ago, Pallas4 said:

I don't really the goal of Syndicate Keyword (I see for master but not really for all keyword) but without the outcast syndicate, maybe it's normal.

I don't have the book yet, so I only know the preview models, but it seems to me the point of Syndicate is just having really solid stats, reliable triggers, good damage, area control, and movement tricks on virtually every model, as well as some scheme manipulation. Thunderbird produces an AoE every time it's moved by anyone. Anya makes all her scheme markers Hazardous in an AoE and can output some damage. Surveyors have range 2, Blasts on Min Damage, and either Chain Gang or output Hazerdous terrain with 6 Wounds Arm+1. Finnigan is virtually unkillable with Arcane Reservior, Don't Mind Me, and movement tricks of his own.

*Patiently waiting intensifies*

If Dead Rider's ultimate specifically is the reason he's so powerful, I don't understand how people can complain when Pale Rider exists. Is it the extra SS on kills which brings it over the top?

Dead Rider does 2/3/4 damage ignoring H2K, at best on Turn 3

Pale Rider does 2 irreducible damage plus Burning +1 (so, effectively 3 damage Ignoring H2K) at end of Turn 2, and then can immediately do it again top of Turn 3 (For a total of 5 irreducible damage plus Burning +2)

Granted, to pull off this double pulse he needs 2x 6Rams in the span of 3 turns, but that's not completely unreasonable in the first place, Guild can take Lawyers with Tools For The Job, and even without the double a single pulse of 3 irreducible damage ignoring H2K which continues ticking damage for the rest of the game (or requires actions spent for condition removal) is already better a turn earlier.

I feel this is only reinforced by the prevalence of Armor, H2W, or low-Wd Summons/Totems in top/high tier crews: Transmortis, Riders, Daydreams, Stitched, Izamu, Ashigaru, Coryphee, Phiona, Shenlong's Students, Big Hat, Hoffman's entire crew, etc

Edit: I'm assuming the answer will just be "it's the whole package" which makes sense I guess.

I don't play McM, but I have theorized him a few times. Take anything I say here with a grain of salt.

A big question is how much poison to put on yourself Turn 1. Catalyst heals you for 1, and at the end of every turn you heal for 1 (+ 1 if you're above poison 4) Every Experimental model starts with 2 Poison, lasting until end of Turn 2 (note Catalyst doesn't lower your Poison condition). Adding 1 more Poison to everything in a bubble with the Chihuahua gives you enough poison to last until the end of Turn 3. I think a good benchmark to keep in mind is Poison +5. This heals you for 2 at the end of Turn 2 once combat really gets going, and leaves you with 3 Poison for a burst heal using Blood Poisoning.

Try to force your opponent to spread out his damage as much as possible. Engage enemies in ways that makes it difficult for your opponent to focus on taking down one model at a time. The more spread out the damage you take, the more healing value you get out of Poison during the course of the game.

Blood Poisoning can be used for damage OR healing. This can really save you in a pinch. Also - last edition you REALLY wanted to Transfusion-Bomb enemies since you get a free Flesh Construct out of it. This isn't the case anymore, so focus less on trying to get MASSIVE Blood Poisonings and just use it when it's needed (ususally 3+ damage)

Experimental aren't scared of anything - the amount of Ruthless in the crew makes Terrifying targets a lot easier to deal with.

Be VERY careful with enemy Min 3 models, especially ones with Fast or Flurry. Your defensive stats are mostly low and 3 damage does work against Kentauroi and Constructs (9 wds) or even McM (12 Wds).

Experimental unfortunately doesn't generate cards but the crew loves to discard or use them. There will often be a strain on your hand.

Model Rundown:

McMourning is the MAN when it comes to fighting enemies with defensive abilities. His damage track isn't amazing but against armor +1 it's effectively 3/4/6 or against armor +2 it's effectively 4/5/7. The stat 7 makes him accurate, and with 3 attacks your opponent either accepts the Injured (making McM's stat effectively 9, then 11) or discards up to 3 cards to avoid it. Rancid transplant helps get Conditions off your crew and onto the enemy, or lets McM teleport with a high card/stone. Twisted Genius is a great bonus if you can manage to get the positioning for it. Doctor's Orders can help get him into or out of combat. Run him into combat as early as you can and have him start taking damage - as with Catalyst and Organ Donor he can consistently heal around 5-7 Health per activation. Watch out for Mark of Vengeance.

Zombie Chihuahua is a nice Blood Poisoning on a stick. Walk up, Blood Poison, walk away. Or double walk closer and Blood Poison. Expect it to die sooner rather than later.

Rogue Necro is unnecessary with all the melee you already have in the crew.

Both Kentauroi are auto-takes. Sure, the Dead Rider outclasses them but I'd be worried if he didn't for nearly 50% more stones. They are fast, help move McM and other Ht <=2 models with Ride With Me (which also lets them disengage), have a 2" range, have Min 3 on the charge (which they can do as much as they want around models with <2" engagement ranges) and infect, can shed conditions with Shrug off, and are great durability-wise with 9 Wds and H2W. The only thing they're missing is Unimpeded.

Rafkin is not exciting - 5/5/5 stats, no defensive abilities, and a 2/3/4 damage track with no built in triggers. In theory he helps spread poison in an AoE on Turn 1 and later moves it around to where it needs to be with Transfusion, but in practice you're paying 8 stones, and moving 3 Poison around doesn't help the crew enough to save his awful stats. Embalming Fluids is a massive tease, since Rafkin has no good use for Focus with his flat damage track and shockwave action.

Sebastian is the same cost as Rafkin, but is a Henchman, has H2W and Ruthless, has a better melee action, the same Shockwave, and Blood Poisoning instead of Transfusion. He can also summon Canine Remains on a 6Crow twice per turn, which is less good than it seems since Canines are crappy 3ss models to begin with, but still good.

Flesh Constructs are good. Ruthless, H2W, always Fast, and lots of health and healing is great. Projectile Vomit is an amazing action with Focus, their melee attack is okay. Note that Vomit hits against Mv, which doesn't benefit from Injured but does let you avoid some Df triggers.

Nurses are AMAZING models which have so much anti-synergy with Experimental that they just come out "good." Bedside Manner is INSANE for keeping friendly models alive when charged by big scary enemies, especially for Assassinate - but most of your crew is up in the opponent's face especially McM. Bottle of Painkillers is a great heal and condition removal - but short ranged and Experimental already comes with both in droves. Tools for the Job lets you activate at the right time to grab a good card, and gives her free triggers. Quick Cure is sorta just "take Assist once per activation for free." Seduction is occasionally very strong against enemies that get to stack high amounts of Focus.

Guild Autopsies are lackluster. They can take a hit or two, creep along is a great bonus action on cheap models, and their attack action is slightly above-average for such a cheap model. Their gun is worthless though. On paper, they seem great at fighting for their cost, but the problem is they struggle to do anything else. Mv 4 severely limits their mobility, 6 health is perfect to get cleaned by Min 3 in a single activation, and you can only have so many melee fighters without Unimpeded or Flight before you start getting in your own way. Loot Their Corpses could be a nice little bonus sometimes IF they can manage to move over to the marker, but McM and Sebby already have uses for those markers anyway.

Little Gassers are bad. The only reason one would take them is to spread 3 Poison to the whole crew on first turn. They're Wk 5 with Flight and no movement actions, and 5 Wds with no defensive tech goes down too quickly. They're just not reliable enough to take a scheme like Breakthrough or Spread Them Out expecting them to pull it off for you.

Canine Remains are super cheap, but don't do anything, not even spread poison. In theory they could drop some markers and score you some VP, but they die too easily. Summoning with Sebby and running it into an enemy without Min 3 damage to eat 2 AP from them is the best case scenario.

The Summoning Tactic?

My obsession with summoning/value initially had me thinking getting a free Flesh Construct on turn 1 with Twisted Genius is the best way to go. I'm no longer convinced, as to pull this off you need to take a Grave Digger and one other corpse marker generator. The Flesh Construct is only 1 stone more than the Digger in the first place, so it's *kinda like* taking a Flesh Construct and then summoning a Grave Digger. Does that excite me as much? No, Grave Diggers are awful unless you're abusing them with the GST upgrade.

From what I've seen, most sites pegged the Explorer's Society book to be released Nov 20th, does anyone know when the Wyrd App will be updated with the new cards?

On 11/17/2020 at 12:33 PM, touchdown said:

I know it's not for everyone but the humor of the chad vs virgin meme comes from the claims being so exaggerated they have little connection to the actual reality.

This ^ 

I really don't understand how this thread got out of hand. Like, one of the comparisons is "plays against 13 year olds who microwave their dice" vs "plays against Vegas magicians who rig their deck" I thought the intentional absurdity was clear lol

4 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

Focused +X: Before performing an opposed duel, this model may lower the value of this Condition by one to receive a to the duel. If the Condition was lowered to zero, it receives a  to any resulting damage flip this model makes.

Seems a little inelegant. I would do:

Quote

Focused +X: Before performing an opposed duel, this model may end this Condition to receive a to the duel equal to this condition's value (to a maximum of 3?) and a  to any resulting damage flip.

That way focus can be stacked infinitely for small benefits each stack, but can't be abused for to damage flip after damage flip (Looking at you, Seamus). However, we keep the benefits of models being able to carry a focus with them across turns in M3E. It makes sense in reality too - you can keep trying to concentrate harder, but once you break concentration and deliver the focused strike, you're back to normal.

Before writing this I actually started off with "I'll just comment briefly without getting too verbose on this" and here I am laughing at myself...

--

Low SS models are intentionally bad because they get more (possibly double) AP per SS than higher cost models. AP at the end of the day is the most important resource in Malifaux, and two 4ss models literally get twice as much AP as an 8ss model, depending on the quality of bonus action. Granted, they also have to use more move actions (total between them) to get in position, however they can also be in two places at once. All of these models are inherently more efficient at performing general actions throughout the game thanks to this fact. Although 3-5ss models are never absolute stars, they do great for their cost and different cheap models perform a variety of roles. Onryo are decent blasters, fighters, supporters, and schemers. Wicked dolls are crazy cheap, highly mobile, stealthy, and can perform some support roles. Old Cranky gives an Aura. Crooligans and Necropunks are insanely good schemers. Low River Monks are great healers. Test subjects are tanky as hell. Every Effigy is a cheap, tanky (for it's cost) model with a few unique abilities. Bayou Gators output some great damage. And so on and so forth. I will admit that MANY low SS models are sub-par choices in crews, but I think that has to do with those models either being summonable (Flying Piglet, Canine Remains, Tengu, All Gamin), or filling a niche that isn't valued highly (Guild Autopsy, Saboteur, Union Miner) or just being bad models simply on their own (Desperate Merc, Orderly), not because 3-5ss models are bad. I think a big reason for the "not valued highly" category is a separate issue of every crew's "core no-brainer takes" being upwards of 30-40 ss, allowing only 1-3 models of actual crew customization.

I think a big root cause is that right now the strat & scheme pool allows both crews to focus too much on the fight, and many schemes focus on keeping models alive/above-half-HP for VP. Aside from breakthough, spread them out, and symbols of authority there are no schemes or strategies which really push having to spread around the board and score objectives in multiple areas of the map (Corrupted Ley Lines somewhat does this, but the focus is more on making it from strat marker to strat marker in a single turn, not spreading out and being able to make an advantage in AP work for you. Also cheap models can be a liability since having the Lodestone bearer (or model about to receive the lodestone) die is a massive detriment in that scheme often meaning you're a turn behind). I'm sure in GG2 this will be flipped again and more power will return to taking more lower cost models.

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I don't see a problem with the Focus mechanic. In fact, I love it. It provides actual counterplay to minus flips, whereas in M2E models with Serene Countenance or Finesse were virtually un-hittable. It also makes blasting viable (Onryo, Big Hat) and can even be used on defense. Mass granting of focus in an AOE is a separate problem, and has to do more with "too much action efficiency" being able to turn 1 AP or a bonus action from one model into 5+ AP for your other, often more important models.

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Summoners are definitely powerful. Not as overpowered as in M2E, but still up there. The problem again comes with action efficiency. Your master (or henchman, sometimes) can turn 1 AP on Turn 1 into up to 9 AP + bonus actions (possibly 18 if multi-summoning) over the course of the game. This additional AP comes with Health which your opponent has to get through, or an engagement range which your opponent has to maneuver around, so even if the summoned model is dealt with, you are trading your 1 AP for multiple of your opponent's AP. And that's only Turn 1 - the summoning master gets to do it again turns 2 and 3 for only slightly less returns (7 AP, then 5 AP plus bonus actions) each time. Also keep in mind that most summoners can summon forward, meaning it's technically even MORE effective AP if you include the AP that would have needed to be spent to get that model into position in the first place (especially for low-Mv models like Drowned or Transmortis Students). For this, it usually only costs the summoner a high or high-ish card and more often than not a SS. In the VERY worst case if the summon doesn't ever activate but absorbs 2 attacks from an enemy master and dies that's not even that bad of a trade.

Another angle to consider is that the summoner gets to bring a toolbox to every game AFTER crews are revealed and deployed, whereas every other crew takes their risks and gambles and has to stick with them. If you need a scheme runner, you can summon one of those. If your frontline is suffering, summon a tarpit or fighter. Von Schtook is probably the worst offender here, seeing as his summons are perfect for different types of situations.

A problem with some Summoners is that they are too swingy in power. A Dashel with a 13 in hand on Turn 1 is probably in twice as good of a position as a Dashel without. Same thing goes for Asami, so much so that she often takes the sub-par Emissary just to mulligan her hand. For this issue Kirai, Somer, Sandeep, Dreamer, and Schtook don't suffer as much, as they are all perfectly happy to summon with moderate or low-severe cards which are rare to not get. Also, the F%*#ing Black Joker - usually the Black Joker comes up and it sucks, but it allows luck to skew the game too much IMO when it comes up on a Once Per Turn action which is core to your crew's function like summoning. I really think "Once Per Turn" actions should be "Succeed once per turn." It's much like getting a perfect, or awful opening hand in a card game - it makes your chances of winning or losing that game skyrocket. This luck factor is not an issue when 3-5 games are played every round of a MTG tournament, it's much more of a issue in this medium where even top competitors can struggle to finish a game within 2 hours and tournaments consist of 3-6 games total.

Other types of summoning like Levi, Lynch, McMourning, and Sonnia I'm sure we can agree are not problematic, and some might even need buffs. These are usually very limited in model type, require killing enemies in a specific way, or require too many resources/setup to be repeatable throughout the game. It's really the "summon anywhere within range" masters plus Schtook, Dashel, and Dreamer which are the core complaint magnets.

If we assume summoning is a problem, the question comes up of what to do about it. In M2E where summoning was even more powerful, other crews competed by having just as broken mechanics. Sonnia was the worst offender, simply deleting entire crews on Turn 1. Viks were also an issue for much the same reason, sling-shotting and eliminating everything within a bubble. Lilith would steal your opponent's most important model and have her crew murder it (much like Colette is able to do now - I HATE this mechanic but that's a different conversation). Levi would delete a model or two every turn, teleported everywhere, and was unkillable (I think he summoned too - but less than masters like Kirai and Dreamer, obviously). Seamus was similar to Levi and also summoned here and there. And so on.

This design philosophy makes some sense. "If summoning masters can be *this* efficient and effective with their AP, then non-summoning masters/crews need to be able to generate roughly the same amount of value out of their features to compete effectively." Or in reverse - "The summoning masters' other features need to be below par compared to non-summoners." I think this might be where the problem is. Most summoning masters are still grossly effective with their other abilities and actions. Som'er gets a 2/3B/4BB gun at up to Stat 7, can focus as a bonus action near Cranky, basically has butterfly jump, and gives his whole crew Bayou-Two-Card and Pig-Eating Grin (also, Good Ol' Boys are ridiculous). Dreamer has a gun which ignores Armor and Incorporeal, lots of Min 3 in his crew, stitched are DUMB, and the Lucid Dreams mechanic. Kirai begins summoning twice in mid-game when Ikiryo is killed, with The Whisper can guarantee good triggers from her other actions, and her whole crew is incorporeal and deals passive damage to enemies. The Yan-Lo/Toshiro engine of course has Yan-Lo being a god in mid-late game. Sandeep has an obey, can draw LoS/range from friendlies, and his crew generates way too many cards and other effects. Von Schtook has an AoE focus distributor, gives out fast, some good blasts, draws lots of cards, and has the tankiest summons in the game. I don't know enough about Tara's playstyle.

Dashel and Asami are outliers in my opinion. Dashel is unspectacular himself but is carried hard by summoning executioners, and just being a Guild Master which gives him Pale Rider and Phiona Gage. Asami is beautifully designed IMO, as her summons don't last forever without constant upkeep nor are they individually disgusting except for the Jorogumo, but she can pull off insane stunts like 26"+ Yokai assassination runs, double Akaname 17" scheme marker drops, double Akaname slow/poison bombs, and double Tengu 4+ AoE healing.

As long as we don't create an overpowered hellscape like M2E where every competitive crew has a nuclear bomb in it's pocket and it's only a matter of who alpha strikes first, I think some buffs and nerfs for key crews could do well to level the playing field, and I think so far Wyrd has done a good job with this. I wouldn't want summoning to go away, as I LOVE idea of summoning in most games, and the mechanics especially in Malifaux as opposed to other tabletop games I've played where summoning gives you some worthless throwaway unit (I'm looking at you, Warhammer).

Another less elegant but possibly better gameplay solution could be to just full-on rule "no summoning on turn 1". This keeps summoners mostly the same, doesn't destroy their attrition-like style of play, but just removes that overpowered bump in ~6-9 free SS on turn 1. This could make it easier to balance summoning masters since every summoning mechanic won't be abused on first turn. Couldn't tell you what story reason there would be for this restriction though.

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My gut immediately went to: "I'd like to see the game move up to 60ss as a potential solution to both problems I mentioned above." This would give players 10ss more to customize their crews (imagine McMourning actually playing a little shooty with some autopsies!) since like I mentioned above I feel most crews' core models almost always make up 30-40 ss and leave me feeling like I don't have enough to play with in crew composition. It would also lessen the impact of every summon in the game, since more models are on the table to begin with.  On the other hand, obviously increasing the standard game size by 20% would have some cascading consequences for game balance especially when it comes to the hand and objective balance, and having an extra 2-4 models on the table would push game lengths much longer - which is probably a non-starter.

On 10/28/2020 at 12:42 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Kirai/Ikiryo

I don't think you should be able to double summon turn one with her out of keyword. Change Ikiryo's summon to ignore the once per activation restriction only if Kirai is the leader.

Also: Currently Ikiryo makes it so that she must be successfully summoned to ignore the Once Per Turn restriction. This means you must always summon Ikiryo first to get the double summon, and screws you out of both summons if you BJ the flip. Change this to simply "the action ignores the Once Per Turn restriction if it names Ikiryo"

(Although, The Whisper makes this largely irrelevant, but I find it clunky)

Thanks for the reply!

On 10/19/2020 at 6:32 PM, dzlier said:

The way auto-reference cards work, the general effigy upgrade would have to add all seven Emissary cards, so that's not feasible at the moment.

I'm not sure exactly how the data structure looks, but I imagine in the app you could have 7 seperate upgrades all named "Effigy of Fate" that link to the same jpeg of the upgrade, but each one is restricted to one of the effigies and auto-reference the corresponding emissary?

True - I may have gotten carried away calling them 3AP. But on first turn, maybe second as well I'd definitely call them 2.5 AP at least.

I suppose Pass Tokens and winning initiative may be more important for glass-cannony Neverborn than other factions. I almost don't value +Initiative at all but then again I like to play control/grindy/summoning crews.

I really like that Black Blood Shaman, Vasilisa, and Wicked Dolls combo. That's pretty hilarious.

A couple of the less talked about points:

Lone Swordsman is A+. Ruthless, Stat 6, 3/5/6 with crit strike offense. 8 Wd, H2K, Arm+1, with decent Df/Wp. Roughly 9" charge threat consistently with push angles. Movement as a bonus action. Already worth 8 stones just as a solid beater. Add in plus flips to everything sometimes, pseudo-frenzied-charge sometimes, pseudo-charge while engaged sometimes, 2/4/5 with quick reflexes being stellar sometimes, and being able to generate 1-3 SS during the game. Just gauge your chance to kill well and gamble accordingly. I can't imagine a scenario where he's not an above-average option.

Shadow Effigy is great situationally. Just cheap, significant, can often survive 2 hits, grants concealment, and can help scheme and sometimes push.

Terracottas I only see being good with Asami, but one is great with her. They can copy her Mother's Love on a 6, drop scheme markers for her to heal, and bring back her totem on a 6Mask (or something bigger if you get lucky drawing a high mask). Much better than Akaname for lowering the flicker of her summons in the early game.

Lust is very situational, and it's hard to make her work. If your opponent draws many cards on different models (like Sandeep, Lynch, Big Hat) she can either steal those draws or bomb the enemy with destructive performance. Problem is she needs to be within 6" and is too squishy to live long against a few focused attacks. Seduction can sadden some models that rely on stacking focus if she can manage to live.

Shadow Emissary exists only to help Asami mulligan her hand. It's not worth the 10 SS otherwise.

Minako Rei is not a good early game summoner. She's a catch-22 generator for your opponent, does decent damage on the charge, and summons a wanyundo at some point during the game. Be prepared to dump a SS or two into her as she is fragile.

Wanyudo is an amazing Minako summon. Too squishy to take in crews for my tastes. Very fast and effectively agile. A great schemer with surprising damage output.

Obsidian Statue is great situationally. All the burning stacking is a red herring, you need to stack +3 burning to get 1 delayed damage so +1 burning does nothing 90% of the time. Primarily a "surprise!" pick against enemy crews unlikely to bring armor-ignoring attacks or unlikely to ignore cover with shooting. People don't expect Armor from most Ten Thunders masters so it's more likely than you think. Effectively reduces the first 3 damage to a minimum of 0, can't be moved by enemies, good melee attack, Breath of Fire is totally broken on severe damage, and can remove enemy scrap and scheme markers. Needs some help with mobility, and suffers from conditions since he's so easy to hit. Remember to place your scrap markers under his base if your opponent can use them. Requires good knowledge of all factions and what armor ignoring options they have.

Yasunori is pricey, but good against the correct enemy crews - the ones who draw tons of cards and have large, clustered model counts. Crews like Sandeep and Big Hat have trouble getting/staying under 3 cards in hand, giving Yasunori effectively Arm+1 and H2W and building in his triggers for the first half of every turn. His Flying 9" charge threat (16" if walking first) with 4 attacks on a + flip rips apart the squishier elements of these crews (especially clustered bayou grems). You charge him in at the end of a turn, attacking 2-3 times. At the top of next turn he bombs into a big cluster of (hopefully low-Df) enemies attacking 3-4 times, then sits there, quite tanky. Your opponent asks himself, "Do I attack him now? He's at his tankiest, and my opponent's other threats are left undisturbed. Do I attack him later? He'll be squishier but he's engaging all these models and being a pain right now." Yasunori is also fast enough to engage many shooting models quickly, or to run down schemers. Using his bonus action or Chaos Unleashed he can almost always exit engagement to charge elsewhere, or move multiple enemy models into engagement with him. He can also deny your opponent VP and mess up their plans. At the end of a turn, fly him 14" towards the Corrupted Ley Lines holder and bonus action to push them 1" away from the strategy marker, no duel required. Similar late-turn charges and small pushes can deny breakthrough, take prisoner, catch and release, claim jump, and research mission.

Edit: Note that some options might be great, but still overshadowed by others. For instance the Obsidian Statue is great sometimes, but for the same points Fuhatsu is just going to be better and more reliable a large amount of the time. That doesn't make the Obsidian Statue bad.

Basse is a great master simply for that 3Blast minimum and place shenanigans - with a mostly below average keyword. But he will likely be able to take OOK/versatiles to make up for it similar to Dashel, Seamus, or Colette.

McCabe is solid and has a solid keyword, but I haven't looked too deeply into him.

From what we've seen so far, Apex is looking to be a really good keyword too.

You can start collecting now and in just a month you'll have the complete ES book. Just be prepared to proxy some things until most of the boxes get released over the next 3-6 months.

I'm not a Neverborn player, but I like dabbling in building lists for many factions. I've heard occasionally that NB don't have as good schemers as other factions, and I wonder: are people sleeping on wicked dolls?

• Significant for 3 stones
• Creep along basically makes them 3 AP schemers
• 8" stat 5 attack that gives an enemy Adversary for your keyword (which they can use twice after creep along) with accomplice immediately to take advantage if you want
• (Situational) melee attack that forces cheating or discarding cards if attacking most unactivated models, and can slow or stagger
• Stealth means you have to run them down to kill them and 3HP is barely enough to dodge dying from min 2 attacks.

Not against every crew, and not for every pool. Best in Corrupted Ley Lines & Spread Them Out, maybe Breakthrough, Hidden Martyrs, & Research Mission

For 3 stones? Smells like a steal. Why aren't they talked about more?