Whut

41 minutes ago, HomelessOne said:

What are you sacrificing to fit in the Hopeful Prospect(s)? Cooper definitely seems like a Master that runs out of stones before cool tech, haha.

Cooper's Core Crew IMO is

Cooper
Runaways x3
Malisaurus Rex
Artemis
Ullr
Hopeful Prospect
Crypsis Corps

This gives you 17 stones to work with

On 12/10/2020 at 4:44 PM, HomelessOne said:

So - Harpooners. Have they changed much for people, theoretical or otherwise? Reeling in Pit Trap markers seems funny, if gimmicky.

I don't value them as hires. They're not fast enough to make scheme plays and Crypsis do much better damage, unique utility, and have stealth. Although they can push enemy models, we already have Malisaurus bonus action and Artemis for that.

However, I can definitely see them as replacements for Hopeful Prospects (which Cooper should ALWAYS be taking) if you either need the pushes to get/deny VP later in the game, or if you're already within stealth range of the enemy and value the Df6 to try to stay alive.

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Wow, that Daeva tech is nuts. Although I imagine instead of Jessie's dig (which requires a TN), you'd want to use Luna's scrap generation (requires no duel?) But that's a LOT of options for an 8 stone model. There's not that much min-3 stuff to mimic, but the Rough Rider tech is insane (and I wouldn't be surprised if Ivan ends up taking some Rough Riders for that tech plus ride with me in general).

Yeeeeeap. Daeva gets Ride With Me'd up, activates with Fast, Mimic Rough Rider, 4 attacks (as long as one of the first 3 hit) at effective Stat 6 thanks to Latch on, 2/3/4 with Precise and Injured +1. For the rest of the turn if you RideWithMe it into base contact with an enemy you get another attack (at this point probably effective Stat 8-9).

---

At the risk of going a little off topic, I'm interested...

Taking a Rough Rider into Ivan is iffy. On the bright side: RideWithMe is amazing, Rifle's built in + flip accounts for concealment everywhere, Daeva can Mimic Hooves and get RideWithMe'd. Sometimes RR can pull out a Heal on a Tome. Pretty quick with Mv6 Unimpeded. Downside: Cost 8 with 7 Wounds, Df5, and no defensive tech is very fragile. The Field Kit heal is awesome, but requires a Tome (7+ Tome if you also need the Ride to succeed), and Ivan's crew comes with healing for Umbra already, but no healing that can affect RR. RR matches Umbra's low WP and will suffer if the opponent takes WP attacks into Ivan intentionally. They don't get Artifacts which is really what makes them happy to get into melee, so they're better staying away and shooting or aiding movement - But DUA already get fantastic ranged damage (granted, only 8-10" but with often double or triple plus flips), and Daeva get summoned next to enemy models - Mimic is only 6" range. Friendly Fire + Concealment kills RR shooting unless they Concentrate, whereas with Operatives they give ++. I don't expect Looted Supplies to activate much. And most importantly, you won't always be summoning Daeva and they won't always want to Trampling Hooves. They might want to Mimic Gibson's Shockwave, Secret Passage, a Spectre's attack, or an enemy to OnYourHeels.

Tl;dr
It's really the Fast+Precise (and to an extent large amounts of Injured + nearly everything targeting Df in Wastrel) that makes both Daeva and Rough Riders seem that good, not the Daeva and Rough Riders alone.
All the individual pieces that Rough Riders can give Ivan in different combinations can be found elsewhere:

• Healing + Move/Push + Concealing Terrain Markers > Lamplighters (+ giving out plusses from Lit Lamps)
• Move/Push + Mv6 Unimpeded > Nocturne (+ giving out Distracted to allies or enemies) or Effigy (+ Healing)
• Mv6 Unimpeded + Scheming + Shooting + Card Draw > Austera and Twigge
• Move as a bonus action + Shooting + Card Draw > Operatives (+ Ungentlemanly Affairs & Arson)
• Place effects to take advantage of Daeva > Gibson (Bonus action, then push/move Daeva into the marker) or Winston Finnigan

On 12/9/2020 at 7:10 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

How on earth do you manage your hand?

In my ideal turn one, I want...

• 3-4 pass the artifact (card 4+)
• 1-3 artifact creations (card 8+)
• 1-3 ride with me (card 7+)
• 2 secret passage (card 8+)
• 1 Leap (card 7+)
• Creating scrap with Huckster (6+masks)

Two possible ways - creating a scrap marker and leaving it there for all your models to draw cards from as they activate, or taking a Lamplighter for 8 stones to create a Lit Lamp on first turn, giving you a + flip to many of those duels. Unfortunately this is pretty expensive as you already get healing from Rough Riders  and don't create many Terrain markers so the Lamplighter isn't doing much for you.

---

I'm surprised no one has mentioned two great new options that McCabe has available to him:

1 - Daeva for 7+1 Stones. They're minions so they can get Artifacts giving them Fast and most importantly Precise, Mimic lets them copy better Melee attacks than are available to other minions. They're Sz2 so they benefit from Ride with me, eliminating their weakness of being Mv4. They have concealment permanently and give it to allies. Latch On helps all your attacks, and MadeToKill lets them attack a whole bunch more - every time they benefit from "Ride with Me", every time they Mimic Trampling Hooves and hit with it, every time they Mimic an enemy with the Mask Trigger, every time an enemy moves away and fails the Clingy. (Although once per activation)
Things they can Mimic (Note, Stat 5) Include:

1. Luna's Scrap Drop
2. Desper's Expert Thief
3. Sidir's Machine Gun
4. Huckster's  Secret Passage or False Claim
5. Rider's Trampling Hooves
6. Jessie's Archeological Dig
7. Mikhail's Sword and Shockwave

2 - Beebe and Calypso for 12 Stones total. Beebe creates Scrap 4" away using any Tome once per turn, and he draws 2 weak Tomes (usually) when he activates. Calypso is Armor+2, 6 Health, 6 Df, and Beebe resummons it using any of your scrap markers every time it dies, giving McCabe a solid central Tank. Deep Discovery and Reconfigure gives you a use for crappy cards you draw. And they're effectively one model with 2 activations, pseudo-nimble, and a Stat 6 attack that ignores resistance triggers, has effectively 3 min damage, and also pings 1 damage and pushes every model within 3" on Tomes.

3 minutes ago, Sweet Tooth said:

This is a No, since Chronicle is for Another model. Thinking of that thought experiment hurts my brain, so i'm not doing it lol

I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't write that. See, it's not even in the OP. I read the rules carefully. I'm a good noodle.

1) English Ivan can summon a model with a Living Shadow Upgrade. On this upgrade is the Split Ability. Can the model summoned take 2 irreducible damage before being placed during the summoning effect? Since the effect is before the move, you don't get the marker, but the 2 damage could be taken to heal it using Ivan's aura when it activates and trigger Chronicle effects.

Quote

Split: Once Per Activation. Before this model moves, it may suffer 2 irreducible damage to Drop a Destructible, Concealing Shadow Marker into base contact with itself.

2) Mr Mordrake has the Born of Shadow Ability and the Shade Step Action. When he uses Shade Step, can he:
a) Be placed anywhere, since wherever he is placed he makes the area within (A)1 of himself Concealing Terrain, satisfying the condition of Shade Step
b) Be placed within 1" of himself, since that area is considered to be Concealing Terrain until he is removed from the table
Essentially, what this is asking is the order of operations between removing the placing model, checking that the condition of the place is met, and putting the placing model back on the table. I believe (A) is remove, place, check while (B) is check, remove, place. There is also the possibility (C) of remove, check, place. I think (A) is correct since I don't know how you would perform the check in (B) or (C) if the model is not in its final position to be able to check conditions.

Quote

Born of Shadow: The area within (A)1 of this model is treated as Concealing Terrain

Shade Step: Place this model anywhere within range in Concealing Terrain

7 hours ago, Adran said:

I don't think its quite right. In Memorandum is not an immediately trigger, so it also resolves in point 3. (and the chronicle resolves at what ever point the healing happens I think). But I think your general points about when to discard the conflict card are right.  So if Mikhail is Model A then after he does his damage flip in 2.1.2 he will deal damage, and heal, so he would get the discard pile there before the damage card has reached the discard pile (but it will contain cards from the flip, and the card that was cheated out) assuming he was getting Chronicle (Innocence) 

A couple of things to point out first - The model losing cheats fate first, so If you have deep discovery and you are losing after the inital flip, you cheat with the not chosen card. If you cheat second, then you would cheat with the card the opponent just discarded from the conflict. Its a bit strange for them as they don't know for certain what they are goign to get to cheat with until its their chance.

But they also have Reconfigure, which may alter the value of the card they cheat with, and may well mean that the lower of the two cards your oppoennt flipped is actually the one that gives you the highest total. The disadvantage that crew with many multiple flips has is that they don't know what card they are leaving for you to cheat from. 

It makes quiet a difference in the mental choices you need to do when you face EVS. That alone makes deep discovery not worthless. 

In Memorandum isn't immediately, but you do have to choose the card at the time of declaring the trigger since that wording is in italics and is treated like a cost.

Reconfigure is a good point.

I expect playing against EVS to be very interesting sometimes - if you have a 13 on top of your discard, it'll sometimes be worth it to SS or spend Focused for + to Df or cheat (if you cheat first) just to deny EVS that 13 for free.

Just now, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh wow, wicked! How good is the crew at generating the suit? Or are there OOK combos to generate it?

No help, only cards

18 minutes ago, muraki said:

How is it possible that chronicle 'heals' is different than cadmus 'heals' as others point out there's a rule book page that says if you're at full life healing is ignored as if it doesn't exist, so you don't heal.  Is why there's a clear distinction in abilities to differentiate 'heals' and 'would heal'.

The rule book does NOT say if you're at full life healing is ignored as if it doesn't exist.
It says "A model's Health cannot exceed its maximum Health; if a Heal effect would cause it to exceed this limit, any additional Healing is ignored"

We Are Legion occurs WHEN Healing, and modifies the amount healed, to a minimum of 0. The Healed model's health is never (attempted to) increased above its maximum health.

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Chronicle occurs after healing, while We Are Legion by necessity occurs before healing.

Technically it occurs "when healing"

Yea, actually the more I think about this now, the more I agree with being able to transfer a heal at full wounds.

1. A model receives a "healing effect", thus it "Heals"
   1. Rulebook: "When a model Heals..."
   2. WeAreLegion: "During the Activation Phase, when this model Heals..."

I see no reason why WeAreLegion would not apply as soon as a model receives a healing effect, as that is what constitutes when a model "Heals", before any increase in Health even occurs. Chronicle at least specifies "after a model heals," meaning the Rulebook rule "activates" first and has a chance to ignore the healing effect as if the healing did not occur.

--

I also fail to see any clear way to resolve the opposite position:

1. A model Heals for X
2. The Heal applies, raising health by X
3. We Are Legion effect occurs, retroactively reducing health by 1 (but this isn't damage)

So what if a model missing 2 health Heals for 3? Should it be healed to full health, then the excess healing is ignored, then the healing is lowered by 1? So the Healed model only increases it's health by 1?

1. A model takes X damage
2. The damage applies, lowering health by X
3. We Are Legion effect occurs, retroactively increasing health by 1 (but this isn't a Heal)

So if the health was reduced to 1 during step 2, would that model drop the marker for Recover Evidence? Or, if the model is reduced to 0 health, is the excess damage ignored like normal, and then We Are Legion lessens the damage by 1, meaning Cadmus models can almost never die?

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One thing to note is that Thoon (the Savage model with a similar ability) can stone for the suit AND chuck the pillar across the table, and the ability still isn't super strong.

It is good and can win games if people aren't prepared for it (which perhaps they won't be because they'll assume you don't have the  suit), but I wouldn't consider it a plan A by any means.

I agree. It's not plan A. But also Mordrake has an imperceptible and larger threat range, especially if he dies and respawns before activating. And the threat this poses is itself an advantage, just scaring your opponent into not spreading out, or being too afraid to push his Mv 4 beatstick into Ivan because Mordrake is right there next to him ready to bury you.

Also, Ivan can Encroaching Shadows to push the Shadow Marker 6". The day might come where I'll bury the enemy master, activate Ivan, and push the marker 18" away behind my entire crew. I'm gonna feel really bad.

1 hour ago, HomelessOne said:

So, what have you been doing with Mr Mordrake’s Claimed By Shadow trigger?

Haven't played an Explorer's game yet, but yea, this trigger is absolutely filthy. Effective Stat 7 vs Mv on staggered models (Stat 5 otherwise, which against Mv is perfectly fine), permanent bury if the enemy can't remove the marker. If the model is buried at the end of the game, it's dead. Even if they can remove the marker, that's 1 AP to remove - effectively Slow (or worse if they had to use AP moving towards the marker). Works on everything, even Masters. Can be done to multiple models during the game. Mordrake can even make his own markers with Tomes or low Crows. And Mordrake himself is unkillable without Demise-ignoring effects (or killing/pressuring Ivan) so you can't even get rid of him.

There is one saving grace - all the models in Keyword are 30mm except the Broken Spectre (who is slow and hard to summon) so at least Ivan can't easily step on the marker to hide it.

1 minute ago, solkan said:

Try it the other way around:  There isn't any way to get multiple cards into the conflict.

1.  If you would add multiple cards due to fate modifiers, the rules specifically call out that you only add one of them.

2.  If you cheat fate, you replace the card in the conflict with the new one.

As a result, there's going to be one card in the conflict per player, and that's it.

As long as it is concluded that cards in the conflict are discarded at the end of the flip/cheat sequence, yes

21 minutes ago, Alcathous said:

Old Ways specifically says to put the card on the bottom of the discard pile once the duel is resolved.

Ah, forgot that bit

39 minutes ago, Whut said:

Is there a line in the rulebook backing this? I thought this is the way it worked initially, but it seemed weird that both the Duel Card and the Damage Flip Card remain in "the conflict" until the action is resolved and then are discarded together. [...] And being able to place the card used for the Duel at the top of your discard pile (above even the card used for damage) seems strange to me as well.

I think Old Ways can provide us with a little Rules as Intended here. If the above is how it worked, then every Savage model would be able to Attack, cheat a 13, then at the end of the action discard the 13. Attack & Old ways - pull the 13 back in for another round. Attack & Old ways - pull the 13 back in for another round. Attack & Old ways - pull the 13 back in for another round. Basically until the opponent gets to take an action.

12 minutes ago, Alcathous said:

  

Yeah, I see what you're saying. The exact quote is "Once the effect that caused a card to be flipped is resolved, the card is discarded." Which is different than saying "After resolving..."

I think it makes sense that each individual simple duel required from a shockwave is discarded one-by-one. But what about the card from the simple duel that created the shockwave? Does it hang around until the whole action/effect is resolved?

Now exceptionally curious because this hugely affects how Old Ways plays out

This is exactly what I was thinking. Old ways would let you keep using a 13 to succeed with all models affected by a shockwave at the cost of 1 Health per model.

I think my initial interpretation makes the most sense - the "Effect" refers to the duel / damage flip itself. Basically an effect (in this context) would be "an instance of flipping and or cheating cards"

---

As a side note, I don't like what this means for EVS against crews with lots of positive flips (Like M&SU, for instance). Deep discovery is almost worthless when the card you can cheat is the lower of two cards that your opponent flipped (plus minus some variability in stats)

44 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For the Legion ability, the heal transfers before it resolves/is applied. So it doesn't have a chance to "see" that the model is at full health before the heal amount is reduced.

Actually yes, I agree with this. I thought of this a few days ago but forgot.

Edit: However, if this is the intended way this should work, it really should have been "would heal"

Yea, that's fine. I agree with that interpretation since now I notice the second "Healing" the one referred to by the text in parentheses is also capitalized.

(Still, from a thematic perspective I feel like Cadmus should be able to pass healing around at full health)

Edit: To anyone reading, I change my mind later in the thread so keep reading

17 minutes ago, Alcathous said:

A model healed at full health is treated as if the healing did not occur.

I believe this is incorrect. At least in the rule I'm quoting, the model is not treated as if the healing did not occur. It's only that excess healing is ignored as if healing did not occur.

10 minutes ago, Alcathous said:

Then, after resolving the action, the cards that were used in the conflict are discarded.

Is there a line in the rulebook backing this? I thought this is the way it worked initially, but it seemed weird that both the Duel Card and the Damage Flip Card remain in "the conflict" until the action is resolved and then are discarded together. There isn't any rule preventing multiple cards being in the conflict explicitly, but the way that Positive/Negative flips work where one card is put in the conflict and the others are immediately discarded makes it seem like Wyrd were trying to avoid multiple cards being in the Conflict for a player at one time. And being able to place the card used for the Duel at the top of your discard pile (above even the card used for damage) seems strange to me as well.

This would also mean that for Shockwaves, each card placed in the Conflict by the defending models stay in the conflict until the action has been fully resolved for all affected targets. Again, nothing explicitly prevents this, but it feels weird.

11 minutes ago, Alcathous said:

I could be wrong, but I don't think Chronicle waits until after resolving, I believe it happens when you apply result, right after any healing takes place. If I'm right, then it would be the "cast off" card(s) and not the card used in the conflict that Tannenbaum can reset. Please let me know if I'm misreading that though.

Rereading it now, I can definitely see it working this way, but it's a bit ambiguous.

38 minutes ago, Arlos896 said:

Can full health models be used to pass around healing in We Are Legion or no?

I would say yes, you can.

Quote

Rulebook: Healing
When a model Heals, it gains an amount of Health equal to the healing effect. A model's Health cannot exceed its maximum Health; if a Heal effect would cause it to exceed this limit, any additional Healing is ignored (as though it did not occur).

By the bolded wording I would assume when a model "Heals" refers to receiving an effect which heals it, not actually increasing it's health value. I also would argue that "(as though it did not occur)" is a phrase that only applies to the previous statement "any additional Healing is ignored." It is not saying that the model did not "Heal", it is only saying that additional Healing is ignored AS IF it did not.

Quote

We Are Legion
During the Activation Phase, when this model Heals or ...

Quote

Chronicle
After another Model within (A)6 Heals, ...

Therefore I believe We Are Legion allows Cadmus to transfer 1 Healing to another model even when at full health, and Chronicle applies even when a model at full health receives Healing.

Thoughts?

When you get to use the top card of someone's discard pile, when does this happen in relation to discarding the cards that took place during the duel?

This matters for abilities/actions/triggers such as:

• Deep Discovery (EVS)
• Chronicle (Tannenbaum)
• In Memoriam (Mikhail XVI)
   

Quote

 

M3E Rules, PG 8: "The Conflict"

Cards that are currently in use are considered to be in the Conflict, a clear area somewhere on the table. All information on cards in the Conflict is public knowledge.
If multiple cards are added to the Conflict as the result of Fate Modifiers only one card is placed into the Conflict; the others are discarded.
One the effect that caused a card to be flipped is resolved, the card is discarded

 

What does "the effect" in the above passage refer to? I think this refers to the Duel, or Damage Flip. (But it could be interpreted to mean the action?)

Lets assume Model A is attacking Model B, who each have a ++ flip to the duel

1. Effect: The Duel
   1. Modify the duel
   2. Flip Fate Card
      1. Each Player flips 3 cards, choosing one to place into the Confilct and discarding two others in any order they choose
   3. Cheat Fate
      1. At this point a model can use Deep Discovery to cheat with the opposing player's discarded card from within the same flip (NOT the top card of the opposing player's Discard Pile from before the action was performed)
   4. Determine Final Duel Total
   5. Declare Triggers
      1. At this point Mikhail (if he is Model A) declares In Memoriam and can choose one of either of the 2 discarded cards from within this duel or the top 3 cards from his discard pile from before the duel (As opposed to one of the top 5 cards from before the Duel)
   6. Determine Outcome
   7. Discard the card "In the Conflict" ??
2. Effect: Apply Results ??
   1. Damage Flip (assume + flip)
      1. Player A flips 2 cards, one of which enters the Conflict and the other is discarded
      2. Player A can now cheat the card in the Conflict, discarding the previous card
   2. Discard the card in the conflict
3. After Resolving
   1. At this point, Tannenbaum's Chronicle is resolved (assume Model A healed) - meaning the card at the top of your discard pile is ALWAYS the card last placed into the Conflict (in this case, the card you cheated for the damage flip)

Did I get this right?

38 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Anna, Manos, and Vincent (one shots summons) are all common tech picks in Ressers. So that might just be a bad matchup and the solution might be to not bring summoner Ivan against Ressers (or at least, bring a flexible list I'd you bring him at all).

Would be funny to take an Ivan list where they take Vincent and Anna, and then you put zero emphasis on summoning 😜

Speaking of which - can we get a list of all the really dangerous anti-summoning and anti-demise tech to look out for?

Anti-Summoning:
Lone Marshal, Vincent, Anna, Charm Warder, Exorcist, ?

Anti-Demise:
Manos, DatsueBa, Shenlong, Lord Cooper, Archivist, ?
Mostly Avoidable: Charm Warder, Execute, ?

--

So far it seems like declaring Ivan into Ressers is suicide, into 10T or Explorers is dangerous, into Guild is a toss-up, and into others is probably a safe bet.