Whut

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Perhaps. Although could be good to swap Archivist + an upgrade for B&C?

Yes, 2 FWC on Rough Riders is both overkill and exposes twice as many 9 Cost RR to getting caught and killed (I don't think two Insurance Auras can proc from one death, right?). Archivist doesn't benefit the crew much either. Sure, Omens is cool but he's an additional ranged attacker who suffers from Concealment and he doesn't have good Health batteries like he does in Cadmus.

Assuming this is the super duper "load up your hand with severes" trick from before, losing Initiative Turn 2 should only worry you if you think Sidir will die in a single activation. Even if he gets engaged on, that feels like some classic over-extension by the opponent and he can be RideWithMe'd back into shooting position by McCabe or either of the RR

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

True, storing for a strong turn two seems good! Is it just Cherri/Sidir that is worth powering up turn 2?

Theoretically anyone is worth it, Sidir works out well because his gun is so strong and he doesn't need his bonus action so he can keep the chain going. Hucksters, HopefulProspects, and Crypsis Corps are good models with bonus actions which won't be used every turn too.

It helps to think of Artifact passing as "Bonus action: requires a 4, give an unactivated Minion/Wastrel within 6 Fast" in addition to actually transferring the Upgrade.
So if a model isn't getting a lot of value out of its bonus actions this turn (another example could be RRider/McCabe don't need to move) and doesn't need to keep the upgrade for next turn, it can instead "give" its bonus action to another model as a full action.

Artifacts will practically always stop moving when they reach Daeva, and usually on RoughRiders.

48 minutes ago, Whut said:

I imagine if you're taking Sidir, you might as well bring along a Hopeful Prospect. They're cheap, can be RideWithMe'd, can reload his Focus when he inevitably kills with that disgusting severe damage, and their bonus action isn't important so they can hold Trinkets between turns and give Sidir Fast. Although if they die or replace, they lose the upgrade if it's still on them.

The more I think about this the more I like this pipe dream.

Beebe & Calypso
RoughRider
Sidir
Hopeful Prospect
Daeva
10 SS Remaining

Turn 1
Daeva makes a scrap, concentrates for Focused+1
RR & McCabe Ride Daeva & Sidir
Pass Upgrade to Hopeful, he Walk-Walk-Concentrates and is far enough up the board to be within 4" of Sidir/Daeva
Sidir Walk-Concentrates for Focused+2 and BlowsItToHell to remove any potential cover

Turn 2
Stuff happens with McCabe & Others top of turn
Hopeful activates, walk, concentrate or shoot, passes upgrade to Sidir
Sidir is Fast, shoots 3+ times, passes upgrade to Daeva
Daeva is Fast, mimics Sidir, shoots 3+ times
Luna digs up another Upgrade, passes it to Hopeful?

55 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One thing I'm unsure of is whether calypso's turn one scrap is reasonably reliable. Ideally you want one of your low cards for the turn to be a tomes in your initial hand is tricky.

You can get quite a bit of coverage with a Huckster + C&B (low tomes or moderate mask), but still not sure if that's ideal either.

I think the crew really does a lot better with two scrap, but it is still unclear to me the efficient paths to get there. Daeva is of course a strong contender, but it can't pass the upgrades once it receives them, which is a bit awkward (assuming you're making a scrap).

Halliday is perhaps the best option for just reliably producing scrap, but then the card overall isn't something I'm that excited about.

Very confusing!

Out of 6 cards in the hand and SS for 2 more, you only need 1 Tome. FlushWithCash on a minion can let you Draw 3-4 extra cards. Austera & Twigge or a HopefulProspect can help further. It's not 100% but it's much more consistent than needing a 6Mask which is what 10T McCabe relied on for nearly 2 years now, right?

If all that fails, you can flip a weak Tome on Initiative, with Luna, or with anyone else as they pass around Luna's Artifact.
Luna pass Mirror to a RoughRider, then RoughRider RideWithMe, Concentrate, and Shoot once or twice in non-corner? That can flip 2-8 cards and Draw 2.
Attacking an ally and relenting can flip 4 cards per action.

In the intricate phrasing of our great lord Plaag: "Jessie is useless"
Daeva is the best guarantee.

Why do you put so much emphasis on passing around a bunch of Fast T1? I imagine Fast is more important T2, only especially useful on RoughRiders cause they can reach targets to shoot. Most other models are happy with a Concentrate + Walk (or Shoot if they've gotten RideWM up but that means RR can't pass the Artifact)

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I imagine if you're taking Sidir, you might as well bring along a Hopeful Prospect. They're cheap, can be RideWithMe'd, can reload his Focus when he inevitably kills with that disgusting severe damage, and their bonus action isn't important so they can hold Trinkets between turns and give Sidir Fast. Although if they die or replace, they lose the upgrade if it's still on them.

2 hours ago, HomelessOne said:

Vernon & Welles are Sz2?! I can't believe I hadn't really registered that before.

Whut: How often are you taking 2x Rough Riders? As a further question, is it due more to their utility or relative squishiness?

I don't play Wastrel because they don't fit my style at all, I just like theorizing. So I suppose the literal answer to "how often" would be never, lol

That being said, I think always 2. Good gun range and good movement is good, they can drop 2 schemes per turn, they move the rest of the crew for free, they heal, grant concealment, and can use all 3 Artifacts better than most.

I think they should usually carry Faded Mirror to let them hold a Focused and cycle 1-3 cards per turn each while staying mobile and shooting (just cheat no matter what unless you're already winning against a high card). When against Armor/H2W/etc they can use Precise decently well and Injured is an underappreciated condition at +2 or more. Mask is least useful but heals 2 per enemy activation, so maybe good when chasing a schemer which won't kill them?

I don't like their squishyness in melee, but 7 Health means they'll never get one shot, they can stay in concealment pretty well (cover is often meaningless but that too), and can perfectly position 13+ inches away from what they shoot to stay safe.

Nothing about them is like WOW, look at THIS you can do in one activation! It's more about consistent sustained fire over time while preventing the enemy from doing anything back

Not sure how well any of that works out in practice.

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Edit: Maybe only 1 when you're taking Desper for Breakthrough, but for schemes like SpreadThemOut I think they do Desper's job well enough while being more impactful for damage. I also think they invalidate Hucksters now that Beebe can generate your scrap, except when you need to drop Schemes within 4" of other Schemes but we have better options for that too.

27 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Beebe and calypso I was sceptical of spending a 12 stone model's AP to make scrap, but they have 4-5 actions so I guess it makes sense! Just seems de-facto best option.

Yea this one I'm convinced of, I think B&C are auto-take with McCabe.
They're roughly as fast as the rest of the crew without needing Ride, they make scrap much more consistently than Hucksters (and can use the scrap made by others in a pinch), they effectively have Min3 plus AoE damage, Injured is synergistic with all the Stat 5, and most importantly they're durable, which is something the Keyword lacks.
If things go wrong and Beebe already activated, he can be RideWithMe'd to safety or near Scrap
If McCabe is dismounted, he can be shoved inside Calypso (maybe in assassinate)
Cryptologists can bonus action Beebe to draw 2 Tomes and if they get their trigger, create additional scrap (although, getting a condition on Beebe could be tough so this might only be for Turn 1).
I wouldn't worry about the 12 Cost AP, they have the AP of two 6 Cost models anyway and even in melee it gives out a bunch of Injured+1 with no resist

One more: Calypso can be healed by Rough Riders even if it can't be moved by them, and heals on Armor+2 are ~stupid~

22 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Ngaatoro already seems nuts with Neurotoxins, but I just realised he can make scrap!! (With obey).

I think he's too expensive. No Poison Synergy, fragile (for cost) like the rest of the crew, if he's Obeying for Scrap he's not Obeying the right targets for Focused which is his best job, and VoiceOfTheSociety isn't that great, only adding 4 success cards on a few actions.

Beebe+Calypso would be my Scrap Maker
Daeva as the best OOK minion like I went over before (best against DF-targeting Keywords)
Intrepid is really good if you're taking both RoughRiders since it heals them for 2 every time they trigger the Aura - although the Emissary can't be RideWithMe'd so you have have another way to push him or take Effigy w/ Upgrade. Also I'm not sure how often a RoughRider will be wounded and not outright killed.
Vernon&Welles protects friendly models, and is surprisingly Size2 so can be RideWithMe'd but isn't a minion

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I think my most braindead tactic idea ever is to take Tidecaller and 2 Brocken Spectres, load the Brocken up with Faded Mirror, and then Toss them into the enemy crew. They both activate, concentrate once, and start attacking and cheating every opposed duel to draw a million cards, place enemies, stagger them, and spread Distracted.

2 minutes ago, Cedar said:

The only thing I wish for now is FAQ/errata on Sovereign Sound of Thunder, so it could be activated after moving, not that is has to be activated on his first move each activation 😕

OH... I never noticed that. That's... not going to matter most of the time OoA but yuck that sucks in Activation.

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, so for example what I do with Basse is end turn one in position to do some serious damage, then I soulstone turn 2 (if necessary), cheat initiative, then use Flush With Cash to draw another 4.

So I've now had 12 cards to get my hand full of severes (minus one severe for initiative), and can blow something up before the opponent can react.

It seems even better with McCabe as he has stronger positioning, and can spend the rest of the turn re-drawing to get my hand full again. Although I suppose Basse can draw solid cards more reliably.

I see. However, I'd consider FWC as a replacement for SS for cards, not as an addition to. Sure, you use one high card for Initiative but out of 8 cards drawn, the 3rd-5th worst have to be 3 weak cards to make this ideal.
Most crews have plenty of simple duels requiring 6's and 7's (if not lower) and I expect to fail at least a couple of those each turn so I'd be hesitant to toss midrange cards away, especially in a crew with already good card draw which can replace used cards.

Then again, I'm HEAVILY a control/attrition player so I just have a sickly reaction to wasting any potential value for the sake of aggression.

Just now, HomelessOne said:

Since Wastrel just got called out as the weakest keyword in ES in another thread, I thought I'd see if Syndicate's even being played beyond hiring Finnigan OOK.

(I kid, I'd be interested in hearing Anya play experiences)

Currently I think Frontier is the weakest, followed by Syndicate and then Wastrel. But also none of these fit my playstyle, they're not particularly WEAK - just weakEST, and Syndicate isn't complete yet so Jury's out.

14 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, and we have Archivist, which is just awesome with the Flush With Cash lines.

Can you explain what you mean by FWC lines?

14 hours ago, Plaag said:

jedza dont care abt ranged atack crews it is not effective-she will just come to the opp and make bad things to the enemy

I can see this being possible. You yourself said you'd take a Lamplighter 1 in 10 games, when would you take him?

19 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

See, now I thought Jedza would be better at absorbing ranged fire. It seems like when it comes to mele attacks its fairly easy to block LoS as far as Jedza's Aura is concerned. 

It's less about absorbing damage and more about how good Jedza's options are. Jedza can absorb ranged fire for a while but if Seeker isn't putting in work to counteract resources spent then you're going to lose.

It's not like Seeker doesn't have ranged damage at all, but those ranged options are usually shorter (6-8") and/or OncePerActivation (Jedza's Terrain, Austera's Bonus, Mikhail's Shockwave, Surveyors' gun).

Comparing that to nearly everything having 2" engagement ranges, good damage tracks or utility on most attacks, Surveyors creating Hazardous terrain and Geodes for Jedza, keeping enemies engaged with LifeToken use, etc and it's pretty clear where Jedza is most effective.

Also, blocking LoS isn't easy. A 30mm model needs to stand perfectly between Jedza and her ally and even bigger models still need to get to that area between the two. Especially when first clashing, if you want to stand there you're probably going to spend AP walking instead of getting both attacks in, and if you want to do that be my guest.

1 minute ago, HomelessOne said:

What would you consider your Jedza core at this point in time, Whut?

Core Crew:
Intrepid Emissary or Effigy w/ FateUpgrade
TheDamned
Surveyor
Mikhail (90% of the time?)

Jedza is very unique because of the LifeToken mechanic, so I think her core is much less set in stone than most crews - it'll fluctuate based on the enemy Keyword.
For example, Mikhail is INSANELY strong with Jedza, but in some matchups he's going to be overkill for the Jedza-bubble-area-control job when a second Surveyor, GraveGoo, Lamplighter is cheaper and more flexible in movement/other things (if not taking Mikhail, you must take Emissary not Effigy tho)

17 hours ago, Plaag said:

who are u going to choose surveuor or lamplighter? what lamplighter is doing better? for what schemes? just think abt it and u will understand

Jedza excels at absorbing melee attackers and out-grinding them. A Surveyor is excellent for creating hazardous terrain and sitting in her bubble protected by LifeTokens while continually damaging and engaging melee enemies who can't kill him back.

In games against a lot of ranged enemies, the Surveyor cannot stay immortal within Jedza's bubble if he wants to be as useful as possible - if he dives into the enemy crew he will do some damage for a brief time and then die. Jedza herself also suffers more against ranged threats because Mikhail can't sit next to her and protect her from melee.

A Lamplighter just by existing creates two 30mm concealing Lamps which are not destructible and can be placed in Key areas from which you'll be shot. He can keep creating lamps using Tomes, and lighting each lets all models get plus flips within a small bubble. He also has a 2" engagement range and Shimmering Lights/Chronicle(Seclusion) can cause a lot of tricks with pushing out of engagement.

Is the Lamplighter great? No. They're a tech choice, and even if that tech choice is only used in 10-20% of games, that's not "almost useless." Its unfortunate that Malifaux takes 2-3+ hours to play and so it seems like 10-20% of games is not a lot. But compare that to a card in something like MagicTG - many cards make their way into sideboards only to be used in 10% of matches against specific decks. Those cards would never be called "almost useless" by good players.

On 1/16/2021 at 3:28 PM, Plaag said:

surveyors are best jedza minions, lamplighters are almost useless

Why are lamplighters useless

On 1/13/2021 at 2:36 PM, ShinChan said:

I just realized that you can sit Ivan in concealing terrain and attacking from 10" away with stat 6 and a built-in , which automatically gives him a damage track of 3/4/5 (the model he attacks will always have concealment), while attacking him will become an uphill battle since he will have Concealment.

Add to that the possibility of a 8ss summon with little investment... He's going right to the top 3 of masters no doubts

Welcome to the party, Shin!

Hey all, I just posted my in depth EVS First Impressions Review. Check it out if you're interested and let me know if I missed anything really strong.

https://youtu.be/XZdOwEgn9_0

Surveyors are a decent but cheap central fighter kind of model, which isn't useful in a crew with already tanky models and Jedza keeping things alive. Depending on what the rest of Syndicate looks like, they could be better there.

Edit: After taking another look, I take this back, Surveyors are actually super good with Jedza

On 1/4/2021 at 4:23 AM, Sagrit said:

Why do you consider Artemis as part of the core? It looks like an anti-scheming model for me, which is situational.

Nimble, Walk 6, Unimpeded is already a quick model, and he provides a jump platform for Ullr for the flanks - Cooper (stuck in the center/back shooting) or Rex (fighting) isn't enough. The pair of them can accomplish things like Authority, Take Prisoner, Spread them Out, etc or gang up on squishier scheme runners.

Secondly, Intimidating Roar is good for keeping enemies away from your gunline, pushing them into Crypsis Corps overwatch lines, and pushing your expensive models into better positions early on in the game so they can use their AP on attacks (Mostly Cooper and Rex)

6 minutes ago, Adran said:

That wasn't what I meant when I mentioned legion. When the spell eater heals from Meredith, it can shunt that healing if it's on full health. 

The lamp lighter will probably heal more, because there is probably terrain, but the spell eater will be doing damage as well as healing. I like lamp lighter, but it's still a tech pick, and one I don't think cadmus need, because they have that tech already. 

Regardless of where the healing is, be it on the Spelleater after it soaks damage from someone within 4" or directly onto someone within 4" of it, it's still only 1 health on most turns, 2 sometimes, at a 4" range. That's not good healing.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I'm not sure I'd hire Finnegan for his healing. I would compare the spell eater as as good a healer for cadmus as Finnegan and close to the lamp lighter, ( which probably gets the healing near terrain) whilst having other effects on the game as well as healing. A lot of that is due to we are legion, so you can shift the healing where needed quite easily, including the Meredith healing even if the spell eaterl is at full health.

I agree on Finnigan vs Spelleater being roughly equal healing, but I interpret that as "Spelleater heals very little and this isn't a huge selling point for him."

I don't see how it's anywhere close vs Lamplighters though. LLs get two 1/2/3 heals at double the range and push 3"+1" which can help with positioning Cadmus' many small auras and exiting engagement. Granted LLs are squishier but can stay much further back and come with a variety of better defensive support effects. And I say this as someone who doesn't think Lamplighters are a good enough take most of the time.

Legion can just as easily be soaked by a free EAE without having to spend 7 stones.

--

At the end of the day I look at what Spelleaters do and it just isn't impressive enough for 7 stones.

• On average, one shot for 2-3 damage which might heal 1.
  • On a good turn, heal 2
• Soaking Legion damage (which can be better done by EAE)
• Turning X+2 into Focused+2 (but inconsistent requiring melee range, a Tome, and setup for X)
• Elemental Backlash (1-2 damage at end of turn semi-randomly, admittedly good against some crews)
• DttLD (admittedly good)

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Edit: Heck, if a Cryptologist allows Meredith to summon an extra Husk, then even he effectively generates more health than the Spelleater does. It requires a 9 but Meredith heals 1 and then the Husk heals 3, both of which can be passed along to other friendly Cadmus and the Husk can be your Legion damage sponge until it moves away (at which point you'll make another one).

11 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

And the cryptologists own ability specifically designed to disable start of activation effects.

Okay now that I've gotten a chance to look at the card again, I see that Ancient Technology states "When this model activates" which I didn't realize. I get it now, that ability wouldn't do anything if "When" and "Start" were two different timings. I still want a confirmation from Wyrd, but hot damn Cryptologists working with Beebe and Meredith is SO strong.

9 hours ago, Adran said:

I think you underestimate how often the Spell eaters hit their healing triggers when you get the suits from both sides of the duel.

They heal for 1, or 2 if both sides of the duel are Rams (which is rare). They also have to win a duel and don't ignore Concealment or FF, so I'm assuming they heal 1 per turn or 2 when lucky. If you really need healing, a lamplighter heals 1/2/3 and pushes 3" twice or Finnigan can heal an ally 2 more consistently

9 hours ago, Adran said:

And even if its just a tech choice for facing condition crews, they have a solid place in the list of options.

Sure. I just don't think 1-2 of them are auto takes

9 hours ago, Adran said:

If you thought these were the worst models in the faction, then the faction doesn't have bad choices...

Yea, I hadn't given the Spelleaters enough thought.
Still, I think on average Explorers have less bad models than the other factions. Bad models I can think of include... moorwraiths, cryptologists (If it doesn't work on Meredith/Beebe), Harpooner, Jessie, Alpinist, Machinist.

Back on Spelleaters...

I'll agree that I put too much emphasis on "melee presence".  I should have said models which provide things the Keyword doesn't have enough of - mostly models who can spread out better,  models that drop scheme markers, and models who can threaten enemies away from Nexus/Meredith or protect them. Other options are healing (better than a Spelleater can) and small push effects for correcting positioning (and avoiding using AP to Exoskeletal).

I also blurted out the Husk example just as a comparison point when it comes to health battery value for SS spent, not necessarily saying that a Husk is a good hire (although sometimes against Terrifying/ResistanceTriggers they can be)

6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

What they are however is is place for the more important back liners to throw damage to as they have multiple ways of healing and get a free shielded every turn.

Isn't this partially what EAE are for, especially since leaving them at 1 Health and getting them killed within 6" of FlushWithCash gets you free stones and 4" of Meredith gets you free cards?
I didn't value ignoring triggers enough when thinking of their resilience which is a fair point, but if they take a damage or two from soaking Legion they've now dug themselves deep into two-shot range to some damage 4's or 5's against their Df5

6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Poison sets up Meredith to get out parasite tokens with a single use of Rancid Transplant, and they facilitate one of the best ways the crew has to force out a parasite token onto an important soulstone user. Not to mention there are plenty of discard effects in the crew, and just other sources of poison in the crew, to easily be doing 3+ damage at the end of a turn to a model from conditions alone.

Stat 5 on Df AND no suit built in? Yuck. But if REALLY need to get a Token on someone, Meredith can get the poison from Vial, a friendly model poisoned earlier, Creeper, or Nexus' Transmutation.

6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Otherwise I'm always better off just hiring an eyes and ears and turning it into a husk

Huh? Why when you can just summon them first turn?

6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Or I can not spend 8 stones on the hope that these mv 4 stat 4 models will actually prove useful in a crew where you actively want to stay in keyword for a tangible benefit and won't have to either spend multiple high cards on them to get use of turning into something, and on my master to set it up. Additionally, they're not going to be getting healed by Meredith, because Meredith is going to be too far away from them, as I can't exoskeletal connection them forward with the rest of my crew.

Compared to a Spelleater you would be better off spending 8 stones on these 14 range, "effective Stat 6 against Injured+2" models who cycle a card, remove conditions, heal above Hard2Kill from Meredith, occasionally heal others, soak Siphon damage, give out Focus (including when anything dies to PToken damage), refund a stone if they die, generate double the amount of AP, and throw out a shot at whatever model Nexus softens up (which she will be wanting to do anyway), requiring the opponent cheat high or let my 4 cost model replace into a Spelleater anyway.

In Keyword is good, but I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot when I could just take better models. One extra Cadmus isn't going to make or break your Legion web nor is the possible +1 Stat on WillOfCadmus something to fawn over.

Why is Meredith anywhere other than in the back quietly running the HuskCreation/HealthBattery/RancidFocus engine while Quarantining?

6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Yeah, they're not ranged beaters. They help support the crew.

I just don't see them providing enough support. They give Focus? Well it requires a Tome and condition each turn, Meredith can already pass Focus from a concentrating cheap model, and a Prospect can provide some extra for half the cost. They heal? Maybe one per turn, two if you really try for it, and it's not guaranteed - Finnigan, Lamplighters, Intrepid all do this more consistently or better while also providing other, far better benefits. Their bonus action is good and the discard aura can be useful too, but I just don't see it as enough to justify the 7 cost when the rest of what they do is just weak or inconsistent supplements to things Cadmus already has.

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Granted you do make some good points. I used to think they're the worst model in the Faction and now I'm second guessing that, but I'm still hesitant to call them good.