Whut

I think the combination of an 8" range, Sh5, no built in plus flip, and no built in triggers makes his gun less than useful, sadly. Most of the time you want to shoot, you'd probably be better off charging, and if you want to walk into range and shoot, you are likely now getting charged (with Df4 and a 1" melee, not a great thing)

Dave from South Jersey here, for me the best would be thanksgiving weekend. The weekend after might work, but I'm worried about midterms or similar from college popping up that weekend and preventing that.

I agree on most of the above. I basically think of him like I think of Mr Graves.

Mr Graves is a discount beatstick (Ml6, 3 minimum) with some strong utility (Show the door, anti-charge aura) and good durability (decent wounds, Armor 1 + H2K + Black Blood)

The SoBB is similarly a discount beatstick (Ml5, 3 minimum, sometimes plus flips) with fair utility (zero action force interact, some healing, condition removal) and some durability (decent wounds, plus flips when low, Black Blood)

I think the SoBB is lacking just one of a few things that could REALLY make him shine brighter:

For one, his (0) is quite expensive, needing an 8 to succeed. If it were a 6, or had a trigger to use it again, or added a small push, or draw a card, or something, this action could have been fantastic.

While his attack is strong, his durability is not. Once in melee range, I believe he really suffers from his poor Df of 4, and he has no damage reduction to make up for it. Even when he gets positive flips, I'm worried he'll quickly fall to a few good attacks with severe flips/cheats.

And like you said, the condition removal both messes with activation order to use and costs WAY too much, requiring two cards from our hand.

That being said, it is still a good model, just not AMAZING. I'll probably be sticking to Mr. Graves for my 8-9 point hybrid beater/support slot, but when I get my hands on a SoBB I'll probably keep it in my arsenal, potentially for Squatter's or Headhunter.

Incoming super long post, sorry!
So when I first heard about "no marionettes," I thought it was crazy! Why would you give up having up to four (but more likely two) 3ss, significant, hard to kill minions? They're as good as Bayou Gremlins (though in slightly different ways)! But just now in the past hour or so, I rethought this crew choice and I'm now considering it potentially BETTER in more situations than its not. Lets compare:
*Keep in mind I'm only focusing on FATED Collodi

Primordial Magic:
    2ss
    Rush of Magic
    Counts as Scheme Marker
    Can make things insignificant from far away
    Can hide all game with no major consequence
Marionettes:
    3ss
    Minion, Significant, 4 wounds, Hard to Kill
    Can Benefit from Collodi's Fated and Strum upgrades
    Weak attack - Ml 4-5, 1/2/4, but can (0) deny cheating for one duel
    (0) push could be useful in corner cases, but costs a card
    Make for good sacrificial personal puppets
        
As you can see, they serve no similar purpose other than cheap activation control. The PM is a cheap hand buffer who can hide in the back and just be an activation or scheme marker. The Marionette can do much more, being a cheap scheme marker dropper, or make a few weak attacks. Because they can get Focus and an Effigy buff from Fated, and Fast from Strum, they can become very mobile and a little , able to Walk-Charge or Charge-Attack for about 2-5 damage on average. I'm going to ignore personal puppet, because I would in most cases want my PP to be a strong minion like an Illuminated or Beckoner to take full advantage of the AP generation, rather than the sacrificial portion.

So lets say they compete in 5 major categories:
    1. Activation Control
    2. Scheming Power
    3. Minor Damage & Causing lots of duels
    4. Extraneous Support (i.e. pushes, rush of magic)
    5. Target Saturation for your opponent

At first, Marionettes seem to win in at least 3 categories. After all, Marionettes can drop more scheme markers over the course of a game than the single one the Primordial counts as, and the Marionettes can also put some damage on thanks to the Focus and Fast buffs. Activation Control is arguable, but multiple 3ss significant minions seem pretty useful for Target Saturation.

However! Lets look at these points a little more closely:

1) Activation Control
    If you are playing Fated Collodi, you're spamming minions. This means nearly your whole list will be comprised of 4-7ss models. You should already be pushing 10 activations without even trying. You don't really NEED more activation control.
2) Scheming Power
    Again, if you are playing Fated Collodi, you are already running 2 effigies (Arcane and Brutal for me). These effigies exist for little more than to buff Collodi and his crew, allowing them to use their remaining AP for moving and dropping scheme markers. They can easily fill the role of Marionettes. They can even benefit from Strum too.
3)    Minor Damage
    Brutal Effigy has Sh4, 1/3/4 at Rg 10(gun), much better than the Marionettes.
    Arcane Effigy has Ca4, 1/2/4 at Rg 1, almost the same as Marionettes, but with the benefit of having Ca against incorporeal enemies.
    Both the Effigies can benefit from Fated and Fast, just like Marionettes can.
    You also get Changelings that can benefit from Fated buffs but can copy crazy powerful attacks.
    Therefore you already have a lot of small ping damage. How much are the Marionettes adding?
4)    Extraneous Support
    The primordial magic gives Rush of Magic, stacking your hand just a little extra, and if needed can try to make an enemy insignificant.
    Marionettes have a very card inefficient 2" push as a (0). The Primordial can also come with a Changeling for the same cost as 2 marionettes.
5)    Target Saturation
    See #1. You should already have TONS of models for your opponent to be torn between. Additionally, Effigies have Df 6, Armor 1, and the same Wd4, Hard to Kill. If you desperately need to hold something up, use one of those, or even better take a Depleted with your Primordial Magic.
    
Sorry for the incredibly long post! I'd like to know what people think about this. It seems that the Marionettes really just give exactly what they seem - significant minion bodies that can quickly grab fast and split far from the bubble at little consequence. For something like Reconnoiter, Power Ritual, Line in the Sand, Marionettes are super worth it. In other Strats and Schemes, I think the Primordial Magic does more for you, and allows you to take better minions. Effigies just provide everything that Marionettes do, and since you're already running at least two of those, the Marionettes become redundant for much of what they're best used for.

What do you all think?

Yea... strum doesn't seem to mesh with this... hmmm... Personal puppet illuminated doesn't really work either because strum doesn't trigger personal puppet. I assume if Illuminated are part of any kind of filth then it includes spreading brilliance, but Collodi doesn't seem to have a way to pull that off using Depleted...

VERY interested in what this filth is.

Can you explain this? It seems like you're saying two different things here. Do you gamble for cards when your opponent HAS or does NOT HAVE a hand?

Sorry I didn't mean "focus" in game terms, I meant like do you try to use one more often that the other

But thanks for the reply!

I can see how powerful they are, but slow and risky to attack with. How are they usually used?

Do you give your opponent penalties to Df or Wp before attacking to nearly guarantee success? Or do you save your high cards for use with his attacks? Or do you just not care that much and attack away hoping for the best?

Do you focus more on the damage attack or the card drawing one?

Do they work well in any list, or should you use them mainly with masters that can buff them a bit like Dreamer, Collodi, and Lynch?

I'd test it out before buying any models personally, I see a bunch of Wicked Dolls doing a better job of dying than actually stacking enough poison to make the combo worth setting up. But to each his own.

Title basically says it all. I see the potential there, but he seems easily misused and wasted.

I heard he was a flanking piece that later becomes a fighter when he reaches Df 6 or 7. He has an insane Wk but no nimble, so does he want to be played with Dreamer/Zoraida/Graves so they can push him around terrain to get a charge lane? Or is he fine just single or double walking into engagement with some enemy scheme runner?

Wings upgrade or no wings upgrade? Making him 10 SS is a pretty hefty investment for a model that isnt a frontline tank or killer. That's ss equivalent to tanks like Joss or Barbaros, or almost as much as killers like a Mature or Teddy.

Do the Alps he summons need some help lowering WP to be effective, or are they fine on their own? Should I bring Insidious Madnesses or Widow Weaver?

I'm using the stolen, and if I paint them I'll do it in muscle tones. Since there's no model for them either old or new, I don't think anyone will mind what you use as long as it's appropriate.

Can't wait to get home and listen, I love your Master discussions, they're fantastic!

I'm interested why you say Tuco, crush. He seems like a situationally useful scheming and support piece, but seems a but hand dependant to really get his best abilities to shine. What makes him so important for Neverborn players? Thanks

How does one properly use the offensive power that Jacob generates? I felt the _potential_ power of the Illuminated but wasn't able to make great use of it. One got Red Jokered by a nothing beast on turn 2 after barely pinging a Void wretch and the other was stuck behind some rocks because I was too scared of bringing him out just to get charged by a Desolation Engine. I felt very static and heavily constrained by charge lanes and terrain.

I thought that might be the weakness that comes in exchange for the incredible hitting power against Brilliant models, but now I keep hearing people say not to specifically try to set up brilliance. Without Brilliance, they seem like pretty standard 7ss minions in terms of damage, and I wasn't able to take full advantage of their resilience (against Tara with a Desolation Engine and Nothing Beast, so either of those could kill an Illuminated in a single activation with Fast. I can see them as incredible against mid-range models and not heavy killers.)

I've been thinking of the Nekima tactic and is it really worth it? I mean 6 damage is great but considering how hard the combo is to set up and the fact that Nekima (A 13+Upgrades SS model) herself also takes 6 wounds. On the other hand, anything in the game can be given Black Blood with a BB Shaman - for example a Depleted. I don't care if a Depleted takes 6 wounds. Zoraida can summon the Doll for 2, have it immediately Hem, and then Obey or attack the Depleted for 1 damage. That's a 7 damage splash, or 6 damage if the Doll is the one who takes damage first. For a bigger base, Waldgeists would also work fine I'd think, though the black blood is otherwise wasted on them if you want to take advantage of their 4" engagement range. Using the BB Shaman himself in case of the Depleted dying would do the same exact thing.

I'd also only do this combo if I can set it up and make it go off in a single or chain activation. Sitting the doll next to a black blood target it has hemmed and letting your opponent activate is just asking them to attack from >1" away and do 6-7 damage on the doll and Black Blood model, which is a huge loss of resources, even if using a Depleted.

Mercury would make a great Mr. Graves, and Lizzy could easily be Mrs. Tannen. Lizzy can just as easily be a performer or beckoner like others have said. Flying monkeys could make good silurds, or probably more so gupps. Mannequins are definitely Coryphee for Collodi. I'd avoid proxying your master unless your opponent okays it. I can't comment on Lola cause I really don't like her model.

Correct me if I'm wrong, my thought process is this: why would you spend 2 AP on a master every turn to attack when with a little restraint you could spend 2 AP on turn one, and following turns 1 AP from a Nurse  (Or 1 AP on the master with the right upgrade, or 1 AP on the master to obey the nurse) and have the other 1-2 master AP free for other actions, for comparable effects (10 dmg + paralyze vs 12-14 dmg). 

Not to say that stacking huge amounts of burning isn't an option, for example against a really tough model like a Rider or Peacekeeper, or your opponent's bodyguard target, but aside from REALLY needing to kill something, I think turn to turn that Zoraida's AP are more useful than cranking out a smidgen of extra damage (again, depending on circumstances)

I really like the idea of Iggy, but isn't depression a bit overkill? If you do 6-8 burning on the doll, sure that is more damage, but the doll will also die, meaning Zoraida is going to have to use 2 more AP to summon it back the following turn. If you don't put depression on Iggy, he can do 5 burning (4 + using the tome you would have discarded for Depression) for a total of 10 damage (enough to kill most models) or 5 damage to two models (again, either killing or severely damaging two minions) and then doll can be healed back up with only 1 AP spent from a Nurse and a crow, simultaneously paralyzing the hemmed target. Is that extra 2 damage from depression worth 1SS and missing out on 2 Obeys, or an Animal Shape->AoE push, or 2 tries at the draw cards condition? Also Iggy gets to use his mood swing this way, which can be awesome at the top of turns.

Edit:Just adding more thoughts:

Also I feel like Vasilisa is wasted on trying to dump conditions on the Doll. If you want damage, use iggy, if you want crowd control, use the nurse. Vasilisa, being super squishy and 9ss, is better used to slingshot models across the board than fulfill the job of a 5ss or 6ss model, only worse. Plus most enemy beatsticks (which you want to crowd control) will just choose to take the damage anyway so it's not a super reliable shutdown option. On the other hand, if you take the Emissary with Zoraida, it also buffs Vasilisa's obey on its attacks as it specifies "enemy models which take the Obey action" (paraphrased) so she might turn out to be a decent choice anyway (though she still doesn't get the built in mask).

Another thing to consider is that the Doll can only take so much punishment per turn, limited by its wounds and the amount of time it can use Hem and you can heal it. I'm not experienced with her yet, but I'll be taking Iggy and a Nurse as the Voodoo doll squad, and loading the rest of my list up with things to engage my enemy. The best part is that both of those models can also contribute to the game directly after voodoo runs out of its best targets, and are also in the perfect price range and have the perfect threat range to achieve schemes like protect territory late in the game.

Do we have any all-around good options for some of the more unique schemes?

Vendetta seems easy but our glass cannon nature has me worried about the model dying before scoring the points for it. What are our best models to Vendetta? An Illuminated or Stitched can both kill like champions, but their range is pretty short and they can be focused down or held up in an engagement. I know Lucius can bring Austringers, but outside of that, what would you do?

Plant Explosives (also Spring the Trap) - do we have any scheme marker tricks (aside from the Primordial Magic, because that thing can just die at range)? Ways to toss them far? Ways to remove enemy markers? Aside from Doppelganger, and Mannequins in a Collodi crew, is there any way for us to get markers near enemies?

Hey sorry to barge in but I'm also interested in Lilith

What is the benefit of having Doppelganger? Unless you really have something worth copying, but she can't copy Lilith can she? (Also is there any list somewhere of the best things Doppelganger can copy?)

Is living blade worth it for 2ss? It's just a positive to attack and +1 range, is it the pounce variant that's worth the cost?

Is it often a wise move to try to do an early model swap? With Eternal Fiend Juju and two gupps it seems like a pretty safe option, no? Or with fears given form and best behavior Candy, a horrible experience for your opponent. Or is that skill better used tactically mid-game to stop scheme runners and swap them with your own?

How would you use the BB Shaman? Is it a good choice? With him and two Tots can you run sort of a "Mini grow detachment" or should Tots just stay away from melee entirely in general?

Obsidian Talons worth it? It seems like Lilith is already starved for masks so I'm not entirely sure.

Thank you!

Thanks for your advice guys, you're awesome! Wondering something else now:

Does Lynch have a natural weakness to ranged monsters that can kill a model per activation like Perdita/Leveticus? He and his crew seem to be quite slow despite their incredible melee strength. Is he better/safer used when your opponent declares Ressers or Arcanists (minus Raspy maybe)? I want to find his niche so I can continue playing him even when I move onto (according to talk) arguably more powerful/useful masters like Dreamer or Lilith. Like I said, I really enjoy his theme

Hey guys, just traded for a Jacob Lynch crew and some beckoners because I really, REALLY like his theme. Sadly I don't know how to use the guy. I have some questions:

1) What Upgrades should one take on Jacob? I like Rising Sun because a nearly unkillable Huggy appeals to me. I also think Expert Cheater is necessary for the trigger. Is the 52 card pickup worth it over Woke up with a Hand or Rising Sun? It doesn't seem like it but I don't really know.

2) Should he activate at the end of the turn? People keep saying "he is designed to activate last" but I don't really see that. If he activates last, he gets 2 cards, and can mulligan his aquired aces and Final Debt someone for (leftover cards + aces + 2) damage, which I expect to be around 4 to 6 damage. If he activates early in the turn, he can spread brilliance like butter with CA8, mulligan his crappy cards (not as good as aces but whatever), and probably Final Debt someone for 4-5 damage. It seems like a tradeoff of cards vs brilliance to me, so why do people say he should activate last?

3) The Ace in the Hole ability states "other friendly." Does he really not get to recycle Aces himself?

4) What models work exceptionally well with him other than the Darkened and Tots/Gupps? Does every list start off with 2 Illuminated, 1-2 Depleted, 2 Tots/Gupps, and a Beckoner? Why do people say Stitched Together work very well with him?

5) What Strategies and Schemes does Jacob excel at? He seems like a generalist so its hard for me to pinpoint what he is good at, unlike the easy choices of "Dreamer is good at Reconnoiter" or "Pandora is good at Turf War."

6) What can we take to help with Movement? As an Arcanist and Gremlin player, I'm a movement Junkie. His crew seems like it can suffer from being a little too static since he doesn't come with movement tricks and/or access to the fast condition like Dreamer or Collodi. Are our choices basically just Graves or Vasilisa(spelling?)? Maybe Hooded Rider?

7) I see a lot of hate for Graves being too easily killed. Is this true? He's no Joss, but Armor +1, 9 Wd, and H2K (with black blood) seems pretty good to me for an 8 stone model, despite the Df4. And he has other perks, like his (0) action and a fantastic melee attack.

8) Just an idea I had, would a Convict Gunslinger with Retribution's Eye be a good choice? It's super pricey at 9 points, but a Sh6, 2/3/4, ignore armor action with a built in positive flip, rapid fire (dump an ace) and a trigger to slow or to shoot again seems amazing. But again, it's 9 points.

Scion of Black Blood? I don't remember that from the Wave 3 Beta, did I miss something?

I'm convinced that the lightning bug is good with Somer now, it never actually clicked to abuse the triggers like that for some reason.

However I do have a few concerns:

1) The list you posted is 52ss. You'll have to drop 2 upgrades, but nearly everything seems pretty important. I would probably have to drop Lenny's pigs and Trixie's gun, or more likely I'd drop the slop hauler.

2) This can go very poorly in several ways. Firstly your list is staying completely static in a 6" bubble for the majority of the first turn. With some speed and a couple of blast markers, you're completely screwed. Also if your opponent flips a 13 or RJ for initiative, you're going to lose your overextended Somer and suddenly your list has very little punch. Also even if you win initiative, there's no guarantee that he'll be bunched up enough for 2 or 3 Thinking Luck shots to immediately win you the game.

3) I'm afraid of having nothing that can really take a punch or two. Even Lenny is quick to die or be pushed with Df4 Wp1, despite his good Ml attack and 10 wounds, and while Trixie is survivable, she has to spread the damage elsewhere to do so, so you're not really mitigating anything. What's left? 6 models with Df5 and 4 Wd or less, and 2 models with Df5 and 5-6 Wd or less.

4) Most people on here seem to be against Somer summoning lists. Is there any reason why? How else would you use him? What do you guys play in Reconnoiter, Squatters, and Interference, because I thought Somer is perfect for those. Is there a different strategy or scheme that Somer really dominates in?

If you position a Warpig or Rooser Rider (etc) after a charge in a way that doesn't allow a straight line to another enemy (so you can't charge a different enemy) and you trigger stampede, what happens? Do you simply not charge again? Can you continue with a second charge attack, and other AP? Do you take the 1 damage from the trigger still?

I ask because I want rooster riders to be able to act like missiles to "assassinate" an enemy threat. Is there any way to improve this idea? I want to be able to reliably kill enemies with approximately (or less than) Df 5 and 6 Wd like Austringers, Oxford Mages, Crooligans, Ice and Fire gamin, etc and so on. Being able to kill slightly harder ones (Belles, Death Marshals, Void Wreches, etc) would also be nice.