joediamond

The Grave Golem's Demise (Inter) ability reads: "After this model is Killed, remove all Corpse Markers within 4. Bury this model, then this model Heals X, where X is twice the number of Corpse Markers removed in this way."

If I understand the damage timing correctly, even if you kill the golem with no Corpse markers around, it will still Bury, Heal nothing (since no corpse markers were discarded), then die and be removed from play while buried.  Meaning things that require you to kill a model in a certain position will never work on it.

Dig Their Graves is the main example for this, although I imagine there are others (like the Revenant crew's Final Veil ability, for example).  You have to kill an enemy model within 1" of one or more friendly Scheme Markers, but if the Golem buries and then dies while off the board, that can't happen.

Am I just misunderstanding this, or is the Grave Golem able to deny things like this?  This seems like it can pull a Wind Gamin, but maybe I am missing something.

Maybe change it to something like: "After this model is Killed, if there are any Corpse Markers within 4, remove all of them, Bury this model, and Heal this model X, where X is twice the number of Corpse Markers removed in this way."

I'm not sure either how (if at all) these rules interact.

This question also applies to things like the Grave Digger's Field of Corpses ability.  Abilities that are "passive" and not more active uses like "discard corpse marker to do X."

Plus, since the Walking Dead is "may," can you choose when to treat them as Ht4 walls.  Like say, Ht4 terrain during the enemy sniper's activation and as regular Sz2 zombies when the ranged model behind them declares a ranged attack?

The Mindless Zombies (and Corpse Candles if you also bring Reva) Walking Dead ability reads: "When declaring or resolving friendly Actions or Abilities, this model may count as a Corpse Marker. If the Corpse Marker would be removed, this model is Killed and does not place a Corpse Marker."

The Bone Pillars ability on Yan Lo's Bone Ascendant upgrade reads: "Corpse Markers are considered to be Ht 4 Blocking, Destructible, Impassable Terrain and cannot be placed beneath models. After an enemy model removes a Corpse Marker, this model may Create a Corpse Marker within 6, not in Terrain and at least 3" away from enemy models."

Do these abilities work together?  Can you have pairs of Ht4 zombies screening your Resser crew?  Can enemy models (or models with the Demolitionist ability) remove these models as they would Destructible terrain?

 

The Beacon nerf kinda hurts.  If toning down his copying efficiency was the goal, I was hoping they’d put a TN12 on Arcane Storm and bumped all the other TN’s up by one instead of increasing the Ca penalty.  I don’t have high hopes of getting any work done with a Ca4 Arcane Storm, and a Ca4 Mind Among the Senses will likely only be effective at moving friendly models now.

The other Sandeep nerfs seem reasonable, and only time and table experience will tell how this works out for Sandeep, so I’m trying not to get all gloom and doom just yet.

I wonder if Beacon requiring a discard to use could help tone it down a bit?

And I agree with @Hollingydale that Ox Mages should be put back to 6ss while keeping the damage reduction on the upgrade.

I do not know if I’d want ALL of these changes to his card, but here are some ideas I have thought about.  As far as I know, I am (currently) the only person to play Sandeep in our local meta, so I somehow always find myself getting caught up in these discussions.  😜

-Replace Impossible to Wound with Concentrated Shielding.  (Just like on the Thallarian Queller, you can discard a card to keep Arcane Shield up after his activation)

-Remove Student of All.  Or at least, how about making it grant Fast instead of an out-of-activation AP?  It would give a similar effect, but would be more predictable and contained (and thus managable for the opponent).  I hear complaints about how Sandeep is incredibly reactive and hard to predict/counterplay.  Having an out-of-activation Master AP which you can use at almost any time probably doesn’t help with that.

-Change Beacon to Academic/Minion only.  Maybe include Gamin as well, for the sake of Kandara and future-proofing.  This would cut down on his dizzying amount of tactical angles without breaking his core gameplay.

-Reduce his soulstone cache to 2, or at least 3.  This could also help clip his wings a bit without throwing his gameplay totally out of whack by more drastic changes.  Personally, my Sandeep games have always left me hungry for suits, so I tend to allocate him more soulstones than I would my other masters.

Some of my ideas for Arcanists:

-Colette: Change her Now You See Me trigger to prevent all damage (same language as soulstones) as opposed to damage reduction.  As people have already pointed out, now that we have more and more abilities that ignore all forms of damage reduction, not just Armor, her primary defensive tool for staying alive is starting to show its age in the current rules.

-Captain: Update Wind Wall placement from "1 inch away from all models AND markers" to "not touching all models."  With all the corpse, scrap, scheme, and strategy/game markers flying around in the average game, not to mention the models themselves, I find it difficult to place two touching 50mm down in a strategically relevant location.  We have lots of newer marker generation mechanics like this that have less restrictive rules, and since Wind Wall is only severe soft cover, I can't really imagine any game-breaking scenarios it could cause like harsher terrain Markers (i.e. impassable Ice Pillars, Ice Path, etc).

-Pyre Markers (Carlos and Kaeris): Same placement restriction changes as Captain's Wind Wall markers, for similar reasons.  Maybe change the 1/2/4 hazardous on them to 0/1/3 and Burning+1 or something like that to add a little more synergy?

-Firestarter: Make Ignition ignore cover but remove it's Stoke the Flames trigger.  Let Firestarter actually have a role as a dependable fire starter.  

-Eternal Flame: Kaeris gains Instinctual when she activates in LOS of it (discard a card? range limit? the limits on this may need tweaking).  Of course, we would have to change Arcane Emissary's upgrade as well to benefit Kaeris some other way.  I am not sure what, but Eternal Flame needs SOMETHING.

-Mouse: Make his rope ignore randomization when shooting at models engaged solely by friendly M&SU (or a friendly M&SU that is engaged).  Make him a Minion that can drop a scheme marker once per turn when a nearby M&SU model is damage by an enemy attack action?  Or perhaps drop his cost to 3ss?  Similar to Eternal Flame, I think he needs a little help.

-December Acolyte: remove built-in on his Sh and add  to his Ml.  Perhaps reduce the Ml damage track to 1/3/4 and Slow?

-Rail Golem: Drop cost to 10ss.  Momentum trigger adds a cumulative +3 TN to the next cast of Locomotion.  Remove free extra Ml damage from Locomotion attacks while burning.  Alternatively, make the Rail Golem pay extra burning for this extra damage ("When damaging a target with Ml actions taken this way, this model may lower it's burning condition by up to 2 to deal that much extra damage" or something like that).  Perhaps include (1) Interact actions as allowable Locomotion actions, but that would likely mean keeping him at 11ss.

-Cojo: Add a  to his (2) Ml attack.  Perhaps also increase his (1) Ml stat to 6 and decrease it's severe damage to 4 or 5.  Solidify his role as a model that absolutely wrecks enemy positioning rather than a raw bruiser.

-Razorspine Rattler: +1 Ml.  Constriction only gives a single  when disengaging.

-Metal Gamin: Remove additional burning from Fierce Head Butt.  Reduce Armor to +1.  Change Protection of Metal.  A lot of ideas about this already, mine goes something like this: it activates a 3"  until it activates again.  When another friendly model in this  suffers damage from an enemy attack action, the gamin may suffer exactly 1 damage which may not be reduced or prevented to reduce that damage by 1, to a minimum of 1.  Each friendly model in this crew may only reduce damage this way once per turn, regardless of how many Protection of Metal auras it is in range and LOS of.

I would argue that you keep any conditions applied while not under the effects of Blood Ward, for reasons people already stated above.

What happens with Stackable Conditions in these scenarios where "ownership" is a thing?  Does "ownership" stay split, as some people have already suggested, or does it defer to the model that applied the latest instance of this condition, similar to how duration works?  What about conditions that can be lowered by models?  Does my Burning +2 model get to choose to remove "my" Burning +1 and leave "your" Burning +1 when it takes the Interact action, or only the most recent application, and why?

20 hours ago, Angelshard said:

Some conditions do track ownership. Primordial magic nullify, for example, specifies "until this model is removed or killed ".

I think that is just specifying non-standard timing for when the condition ends, since Conditions end at the end of the turn unless otherwise specified.  I mean, Forgotten Marshal can apply a condition to an enemy which remains until the start of the target's next activation.  If condition timing tied to a model implies ownership, as you suggest, does this mean the target is the "owner" of the condition, even though the Marshall applied it?  Would that mean it gets around Blood Ward, since the target model (i.e. a friendly model) "owns" the condition?  What about timings that specify multiple models, like the Spotted condition from the Tail 'Em scheme?  The Spotted condition specifies the targeted model and enemy models in it's removal timing.  Who gets "ownership" in that instance?  

45 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

The entire argument against immunity working for Warding Runes like it does for everything else

The trouble I see is that the immunity from Warding Runes does not work like other forms of immunity (although feel free to point one out, if there is one I'm not thinking of).  Even similar enemy-only anti-condition mechanics like Guild's Numb to the World upgrade are worded differently.  For example, Frozen Heart models are immune to Paralyzed.  They don't care where it comes from.  It is unconditional immunity.  Warding Runes is specific in that it has an criteria that cares how the Condition is applied.  It is conditional immunity (pun intended).  

Regardless, I would love an FAQ to clarify this, one way or the other.  I tend play with Warding Runes a lot, so when I am trying to win with my Arcanists, I want to make sure me and my gaming group are on the same...page. 

12 hours ago, Jinn said:

I believe that, as the Armor from the Steamfitter is a condition and the Armor from burning is a condition, they would combine into one condition (having a duration equal to the most recently applied condition) and then he would lose the Armor when he loses his burning, when the turn ends.

Hmm, that is an interesting point.  Come to think of it, he could even lose it even earlier, if Carlos uses one of his two Burning-removal triggers or some other form of condition removal is applied.

2 minutes ago, 7thSquirrel said:

Carlos can end his burning on a trigger from his (0) push, or Arcane Effigy can cleanse it. Either way, there are ways to put Carlos at 0 burning in order to allow Steamfitter to put the condition on him b/c Carlos will have no armor at that time.

7thSquirrel is right.  He only has the bonus armor while he has burning.  He isn't innately an Armored model.  If nothing else, deploy the Steamfitter next to him, then the Steamfitter can spend her first AP to Interact and remove the Burning he gains after the Initiative flip.  That is what I have been having her do if I don't have a more effective setup method (like Kaeris eating it for cards).

If Carlos has burning +1/2, then he has Armor +1/2.  I would imagine it would stack normally with other Armor conditions.  You just can’t get more than +2 from Burning alone.  The word “has” versus “gains” just means you constantly check his burning to see what bonus he has at any given time, rather than gaining a set amount of Armor for a set duration based on how much burning he has at a certain point in time.

Although, like Clement says, Carlos needs to not have the Burning condition when you target him with the Steamfitter’s action.

Sandeep's Tutelage upgrade lets him copy a Ca action from a friendly Academic once per turn (and also lets him temporarily make models Academics).  Both of Amina Naidu's (0) actions have triggers that let her use a different action on her card for free.

If he copies one of Amina's (0) actions and gets the suit he needs, say Missing Forms for example, is he able to take the free Collier Navy Sh action from Amina or not?  I want to say the answer is no, since Sandeep doesn't have those other actions on his card, but I am not sure if that matters.

What about when he copies Freeze from a Tutored Silent One and gets the Frozen Shards trigger, where the free additional action is the same one as the spell that was originally copied?  I think that this one is legal, but I am not sure.  Tutelage allows Sandeep access to the Freeze spell for one action, and until the new Freeze action from the trigger is resolved, the original Freeze spell is not considered resolved (see Actions Causing Actions, pg 36 mini rulebook).

If anyone can point me to more definitive proof on how this sort of copy ability works I'd love to see it.
 

1 hour ago, KingCrow said:

How does this work?  Maybe it's because it's late at work but I don't follow how this is being done.

I don't have the cards in front of me, but I can think of one way to do it, similar to the Cassandra/Performer combo that Showgirls can do.

1) Sandeep gives a Performer Academic using his (0) action.

2) Sandeep copies the Siren Call spell from the performer and cheats/stones for a high .

3) Enemy model that is close enough to Sandeep pushes towards him, ending in base contact, and is Paralyzed due to the trigger on Siren Call.

43 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

The Terracotta Warrior's Thousands Strong ability is explicitly prevention

Ohh good catch.  Edited my post above to hopefully be...less wrong.  You learn something new everyday!  

6 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Then there's the weird stuff like hard to kill and von Schill's aura that does neither but makes the damage be ignored anyway. Looking for the word "reduce" asSanta suggested seems like the safest rule to go by.

I must be tired...I completely spaced on Hard to Kill.    Although oddly enough, despite it being an exception, Hard to Kill actually does have "reduced" in it's rules text.

But that aside, I agree that's still probably the safest method.  

Yeah, after playing them with their new errata, my opinion of them has improved dramatically.  They probably would never have seen the table without it.  

I think they absolutely need to go in with other M&SU models to get any use out of their melee attack.  However, with a Union buddy they hit a lot harder than they should for their cost, especially if you can hit with a .  Luckily, they have Companion as well, which makes this fairly easy to set up.  In fact, they are one of the few Arcanist models who have Companion/Accomplice.

The welder has always been a decent tool for setting up Burning shenanigans for Mei or Kaeris crews.  However, it now has potential for actual offensive use, or for efficiently stacking lots of burning on models that want it.  You can set up a decent Rail Golem Rampage or start Carlos at burning +3 with a single AP and no required cards/suits.  Keep in mind if you have a low , you can effectively give the Rail Golem burning +3, since it's Df trigger is "after resolving."  Also, if you are playing Kaeris with her healing upgrade, the Union Miners can act as healers whose "heal spell" requires no special suits/cards.

Lastly, their False Claim ability.  Any ability that drops scheme markers without the word "Interact" popping up is nice, since it gets around things like Chatty or any of the "cannot Interact" debuffs that some crews can apply.  It also means that you can ignore the 4" restriction for placing scheme markers, which, combined with the action's range, gives you a lot of flexibility in how you litter the board with markers.  I find it has good use for schemes like Dig their Graves or models that burn through lots of scheme markers (e.g. Colette crews, Large Arachnids).

Oh, and False Claim's interaction with the Well Rehearsed upgrade is hilarious, considering how many scheme markers they can churn out.

As far as I'm aware, Soulstones and Terracotta Warriors are the only damage prevention mechanics in the game at the moment.  Most other mechanics that negatively modify incoming damage values are damage reduction, whether that be things like Armor, Arcane Shield, Bulletproof, triggers, etc.

Hard to Kill is neither.

Understudy can only be used once a turn, even if you have multiple chances to trigger it off your saber attacks.

Also note that if you fail at whatever you Understudy, or you are forced to Understudy by another model, that uses up your chance for the turn.

Source: March FAQ, Core Rules Questions

Quote

15) Some Actions say they can only be taken once per Turn. If a model takes an Action which states it can only be taken once per Turn and fails, can it take the Action again? What if another model uses an Action such as Obey on the model, can it take the Action again? If a Trigger allows the model to take the Action, can it be used to take the Action a second time? No. A model which has an Action with the “once per Turn” restriction may only take that Action once per Turn. Same answer for Actions which are “once per Activation.”

https://www.wyrd-games.net/malifaux-faq-errata

Yeah I have to agree it's not really a proper comparison, since they fill very different roles.  From my experiences so far with Carlos, I'd say he'd be the henchman you'd want to compare Joss to.  And that answer, for me, is simply a question of whether you favor your frontline tank having more raw offensive threat (Joss) or durability/utility/mobility (Carlos).

On 4/6/2017 at 7:12 AM, mythicFOX said:

Sadly I don't think there's a serious competitive question to which the answer is; The Captain.  Which is a shame 'cause I love the model.

Maybe this is just a personal/meta bias for me...is The Captain really viewed so poorly by Arcanist players?  I've had overwhelmingly positive results with him, and Joss hasn't seen my side of the table since a few months after M2E dropped.  Granted, I'm not able to frequently participate in the tournament scene due to life, so I don't see the hardcore competitive side as much.  On the other hand, my local area players are no pushovers, if I do say so myself.  

On 4/6/2017 at 3:24 PM, dancater said:

sure no model does everything but then you don't usually need everything especially in a game where you can tailor your list building to the opponents faction, scheme, strats and your general plan.

The Captain is a General-ist with a Major flexibility in how you can use his abilities/actions (sorry, I just wanted to make the puns ).  I get what you're saying, but a game that continues to evolve, with more models to consider (including more cross-faction stuff like with Sandeep), more upgrades, and more uncertainty of what you will face each game, models that can adapt after the hiring phase only get more and more valuable in my eyes.  Models like Joss, which have a set, albeit effective, gameplan, can only depreciate in my eyes as times goes on.

On 4/6/2017 at 7:12 AM, mythicFOX said:

Johan hits just as hard.  Angelica moves our own stuff around.  Cojo and Lust can both shove the enemy around.  Any combination of them is more cost effective than The Captain.

-Johan: I feel like Johan and the Captain are a false comparison, because their Ml damage profile and  trigger are pretty much the only things they have in common (Captain brings burning, cover, mobility, and control; Johan brings healing and condition removal).

-Angelica: While Angelica's is guaranteed, Captain's movement spell is leagues ahead of hers in all other respects, IMHO.  The ability to not only target enemy models, but also enemy/friendly masters is huge.  It is a massive tactical advantage that The Captain brings that Angelica cannot hope replicate unless you get very aggressive with her in melee.  Captain can also pull shenanigans like giving gunsmiths fast and spreading burning, which is a big deal since OP is talking about Kaeris.

-Cojo: It's funny, back when I still used Cojo I remember thinking, "man I wish I had a model with Cojo's enemy positioning tricks...that wasn't Cojo."   Cojo always died really fast for me with that big, slow base, no soulstones, and meh Df stat.  Plus, because The Captain can push enemies from range, he can control the board from a distance without having to risk charging into the enemy.  He is also smaller and more nimble, which makes it easier to position him for that amazing .

Now granted, these are all cheaper models, so the comparison isn't fair in that respect.  I also am making these observations from the standpoint of a 10-11ss Captain, as I usually run him at 10ss unless I desperately need Show of Force or Warding Runes.  So maybe he just doesn't need to impress me as much as those big, fancy 13ss Captains do.

9 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Just remember that if you fail the duel, the action still fails (except walk). You just manage to avoid being Paralyzed.

No you do not.  Gaining Paralyzed is what causes the current action to fail (Pg 62 mini rulebook), not failing the Horror Duel.  All failing a Horror Duel does is give Paralyzed (Pg 55 Mini-rulebook).  But if you are immune to a condition, you never receive said condition (pg 36 mini rulebook).

I remember older editions that was the case for Horror.  Or maybe I just missed a recent FAQ entry?

Mei and Kang are certainly a potent combo crew, but I'm gonna go with Ironsides/M&SU being the strongest answer to this.

-Warding runes, for counterspell and immunity to conditions from enemies, including Paralyzed (suck it, Terrifying!).  Although you gotta watch out for the likes of Seamus and Pandora, since you'll still trigger effects for failing a Wp duel.

-Oxfordians can easily get  to their Wp 6, which is a pretty nice defense line against a lot of Wp attacks.

-Johan can remove conditions on anything that hits your non-Warded models

-It is easy to slip in Bleeding Edge Tech if you want to give  to Ca.

Sorry I'm seeing this a few days late, but I thought I'd chime in.

I am of the opinion that Sub Zero stops all extra attacks, pushes, etc.  Here's why:

1. Defender triggers are resolved first per pg 26 of the mini rulebook ("4. Declare One Trigger")

2. Triggers are resolved before any Abilities per pg 51 of the mini rulebook ("General Timing" callout)

This means that the attacking model's activation is immediately over after suffering damage, since Sub Zero will go before any other effects with the same timing.

There's an argument that being moved to the End Activation step does not stop triggers and such from being resolved (based on the Actions causing Actions callout on pg 36).  But what is actually allowed to happen during the End Activation step?  Per pg 34 of the mini rulebook ("End Activation"), you resolve anything that has "at the end of this model's activation" timing, lose any unspent AP, and end the Activation.  That's it.  You do not resolve any other effects during this time unless they specify "end-of-activation" timing.

And rules aside, it seems odd to me that you can walk up to Raspy and say "yeah okay my activation is over, but let me finish my activation first..."    Also, I think the reason the trigger did not simply hand out Paralyzed like people are suggesting is because then you could trigger it against out-of-activation attacks and get Paralyzed on the attacking model with no chance to resist, all for the cost of one .

Then again, I just sold my entire Raspy crew, so maybe I shouldn't be arguing this for the sake of Ironsides and Mei Feng.  

Edit: typo and clarification

1. Johan, for reasons already stated.  Plus you're going to have all of your Union lads and ladies within 6" anyway for HPM, so that meshes perfectly with his heal ability.

2. Large Arachnids.  1-2 of them are usually my go-to for scheme heavy games with Toni, since they gobble up those enemy scheme markers for nothing and soak a lot more hits than you'd expect for a 6ss model.  Toni can help them easily hit that lovely 6 severe damage, and they can return the favor by ripping Armor off of enemies for Toni (something I find she personally struggles against).  The Unimpeded is nice too.

3. Silent Ones.  Healing and HTK models like Johan, Toni, and Gunsmiths can be useful.  Plus they can poke into the Toni Tarpit and give her some offensive support.  Placed correctly, those ice pillars from her trigger can sometimes help Toni as well.  Silent Ones are very squishy, but with Ironsides soaking up all the attention, I find they are harder to harass.

4. Gunsmiths.  I'll be honest, I haven't really found myself taking more than one of these, since past one they start to tax your hand too much.  But one of them is very useful for dealing with a wide variety of defensive issues to guarantee that last bit of damage (soulstones, armor, triggers, etc).  They are literally...Trouble-shooters.  Especially for a new player, I feel a good flexible jack-of-all-trades model can help when you are just starting out.  Plus the Captain and other models can throw around burning or give them Fast, they have a Cg but no Ml (important for Toni's lure spell), and HPM gets them more out of that 2/4/6 damage trigger.

5. Willie.  Very good shooting option which ignores Armor.  Like the Gunsmiths, he has a Cg but no Ml.  Plus HPM helps him get blasts really easily.  The  trigger can be useful too for some situational movement tricks.

Mech Rider is an obvious contender here, but I tend to avoid suggesting big, expensive ($$ and soulstone) single models like that for new players.

I have been experimenting with Tara lately, and I've got a rules question regarding bury mechanics.

1) Death Marshall buries Model A using Pine Box

2) Model A is unburied later in the turn by Model B (e.g. Tara or Scion of the Void) before the Death Marshall has to check Pine Box again (either by dying, activating, etc)

3a) Model A is buried again somehow (perhaps by Tara again).  Does the Pine Box still check it's unbury timing (i.e. the Death Marshall dies, activates, or tries to Pine Box) if the model it originally buried has been..."re-buried" by something else?

3b) The Death Marshall takes the Pine Box action against model A sometime before it activates again (via Obey or something similar) and succeeds, burying Model A.  However, it has just taken the Pine Box action again though, so wouldn't the model just pop back out again due to the rules of the first Pine Box?

I feel like I'm overthinking this, and the new bury timing would just overwrite the original Pine Box, but I'm not sure.  Any thoughts, rules gurus?

Can I just pop in to say I am glad Ironsides finally got her "OMG how do I deal with this master?!?!" thread.  

That "hero or zero" thread where people were calling her underpowered and whatnot was depressing.

As for Ironsides, that crazy super OP "no conditions or pulse damage" thing that she has?  All you need to do to deal with that is get rid of a 5 wound Df5 model...just keep that in mind.  Like people here are saying, she has her strengths and weaknesses like any other master.

Ha ha well keep in mind I also play Ressers, so while you're right, this is benefiting me in one area, it is also hurting me in another.    One day I'm the dauntless Ironsides, the next I'm a frustrated Molly player who can't get Paralyzed to stick on those pesky Arcanist henchmen!

On the point of precedents, I think Laugh Off does have some merit as a counterpoint, but I think your third one doesn't really match up.  If anything, it reminds me of this:

"3) Q: If a model is killed by an Ability or Action, which Crew counts as having made the kill?
A: When a model is killed as the result of an Action, the Crew controlling the Action counts as having made the kill. If a model is killed by an Ability, the model with the Ability counts as having made the kill"

Terrifying, being an ability on a model and not a condition/fall, would have more in common with this, wouldn't you say?  Granted, it doesn't actually kill a model, but in terms of determining "cause and effect", I think it's more valid.  Although I was more using that Pulse Damage Immunity FAQ ruling to say: "having a middle man doesn't change the source."  Does that make sense?