Ludvig

I've had some fun times with Nephilim since he grows them quite well but he's far from the A-game masters no matter the list and scheme pool. The horrible truth is that you are probably better off taking the Illuminated with Collodi or anyone else really.

What's happened to zFiend btw? He hasn't been around making jokes and more importantly hasn't posted his latest Guild exploits (unless I missed something in the battle reports section).

While it is unappealing to have the same card for multiple models there was every reason to start rushing out models since some releases had been waiting for over two years after getting rules. Several players in my area quit the game because of this which makes me sad (and definetly makes wyrd sad). It is also really hard to sell new players on a game when half the models they want to collect don't exist and you can't even say that they're coming soon. Hopefully future releases will be coming at a more even pace and contain cards with unique art but if I have to choose between waiting two years for wardens and guild hounds with unique art or get them with the same pics next month, please feel free to release them with similar art!

A tip to separate your models in the meantime: Colour code your models and put a little dot of colour on the card sleeve or do your own stat cards. For us players using old metal models the new art doesn't help one bit either way

It's the same cards in the TT wave 2 box released ages ago, they probably made the cards before they had more art. Not sure if later releases of the same models will have "proper" pictures but I don't think it's the new standard.

Huh? Tara is very good I think. Certainly in the better half of Masters in the game.

I must be remembering some old discussions about Carina and the Beast or something. As I said I have very little experience against her (1 game), looks like I will be seeing her more regularly quite soon since a newer player in my area has picked her up.

Admiral: In regards to his efficiency in Neverborn I just figured this discussion was Guild Lucius, I have had lots of fun with him in Neverborn since there he can take able minions as you said and can also get extra/better cards to his hand through Stitched and the Wings of Darkness.

Back to the Guild side:

The problem with Lucius is that you need super high suited cards to get him to do anything, just take a look at what other masters can get done with the same cards and and AP, both Hoffman and McCabe can do almost exactly the same thing but much easier since they require a lot lower cards and can give AP to Henchmen and Enforcers instead of minions. Oh, and since Lucius ability was apparently considered so overpowered you're not allowed to target the same model more than once in a turn while Hoffman, McCabe and Colette are all free to do so with models that are hands down just better.

Lucius defensive abilities are also laughable: I can pay extra stones to get a defensive ability that is exactly like Kirais/Marcus' but Lucius has to spend a stone AND a card while Kirai and Marcus just needs the card which sometimes even happens randomly so you don't even need to cheat it. Kirai can also automatically summon a sacrificial spirit every turn for a (0). Meanwhile Lucius can't summon and need his buddies to be alive and be a Guardsman or Mimic (who are generally super fragile). Highest authority requires a card to be discarded (in which case you basically get what Zoraida gets for free against all attacks) but Lucius doesn't have a single card draw mechanic available in Guild and as earlier stated needs cards to guarantee any of his actions do anything (except paralyzing his own models, that he does A LOT if you don't save 8+ cards in your hand). The Commanding Presence action actually has a higher chance of costing you two AP than it has of giving you one, that's not exactly super when you look at risk-reward ratio and no other AP-giving masters even has a chance of costing you AP as far I know.

The more I play him the more I am convinced he is utterly and truly the worst master in the game.

As for Deliver the Message, How about I have Sidir in my list with his upgrade....whats that you delivered the message to Sidir....oh whats that you can only do that action once per game and now your out 3 points...its mean, but it adds a dimension of difficulty.

 

This has to be an oversight and be FAQ:ed in the very next one, I can't possibly imagine this as the intended interaction. Have you notified the designers and taken this to their attention?

I'm not even sure you don't get VP, there is no part that actually says you have to in any way succeed? If you take the action you have completed the scheme but you can only take the action targeting the leader, just cause the target changed the action didn't fail.

McTavish can really work with a full Swampfiend Crew. I actually prefer him over Juju but since I gather you are just starting out that might be for later (his plastic isn't released yet either).

In a lot of scheme pools I think you will get very good mileage out of 3 waldgeists and 2 silurids instead of the dopplegänger, 3silurids and a single waldgeist. When you use 3 geists the upgrade "Hexed among you" on Juju will do wonders.

Does this make Lucius the "winner" or are there any other contenders? I have heard Tara catch some flak but have far too little experience to dare nominate her. Something akin to the resser/guild challenge where people write battle reports might be cool to discover some hidden sides of masters considered weak.

If you only want a couple of theme crews you don't need to buy every model in Zoraidas hiring pool so she doesn't have to be expensive. Lucius does great with only neverborn minions so no need to complicate things there either. If I understood you correctly Sharyar you are interested in owning models you like the look of more than einning games?

If you have Lynch, Zoraida and Lucius you have nice options for scheming and killing as well as solid minions for Lucius. Add Beckoners who make the Illinated truly terrifying as well as adding pushes, damaging cast attacks and some scheme control. The thing missing would probably be some Terror Tots or Gupps for cheap activations. I think that list of models could sustain you for quite a while and could handle most schemes and strats.

Neverborn Lucius is a lot better than Guild Lucius. Zoraida and Lucius could have some nice crossover I think. Getting a second faction is gonna be pricey so I would wait with Molly.

I would recommend following with the Lynch box (for Illuminated) and then investing towards mimics like Beckoners, Tannen and Graves if you like that theme. Both Lucius and Zoraida work well with these.

You could also work more towards a swampfiend theme since both Lucius and Zoraida can play with these.

It's down to aestethical choice I'd say but be prepared for fighting what seems like uphill sometimes.

In any case I would be careful about tryibg to play him as guild since it leads to buying lots of models fast, one box of cool guardsmen can however be nice to mix things up if you have cash. I would say Austringers, Riflemen and Pathfinders all add something. Freikorp trappers are also awesome but can't be bought outside of von Schills box unless I am mistaken.

This depends so much on the crews and board but I will give it a try. I will say I usually play Guild, a lot of Sonnia, McCabe and Lucius. Of these I favour certain schemes for certain masters and I find I always do better with McCabe or Sonnia so this might influence why I find some schemes easier or harder. In my local play group we also tend to gravitate towards a big scrap near the center with lots of casualties and a lot of the time really cheap scheme runners are going about their business more or less unopposed.

Hard ones to get full VP for:

Spring the trap because it's usually obvious and not that hard to avoid. I often face summoners (Nico, Ramos, Somer) who hang back surrounded by tons of their own models. Might be easier if you face masters that actually want to cuddle with you.

Frame for murder often gets you points but very often not the full 3 since the enemy is using minions/enforcers and very rarely attacking with their master. Against some masters and especially some players it's a cakewalk.

Distract rarely gets me full points because my entire crew is tabled turn 3 since I try to Keep my enemy alive and have a crew with lots of cheap killable models and my opponent rips through my crew. (This might be my own fault, it is also a scheme I have almost only tried doing with Lucius and I can't seem to get him to work).

Outflank is super hard since you usually try to do it with cheap models that are easily killed, there is rarely good terrain to cover the table edge and the enemy can deny points by just sauntering over late game no matter if you declared or not since it will be obvious. It also conflicts with a lot of strategies.

Really easy schemes:

Protect territory: You use significant 3ss models to scheme and table your opponent with big hitters so they can't contest. Just place the markers where your sturdy models are so you don't rely on the flimsy schemers to survive the game if you are worried about dying. It's a little harder if you enemy has lots of lures but a lot of the time you can find a hiding spot for a 30mm base and try to keep that are cleared of enemies so a single 3ss model can get you full 3vp.

Plant evidence: Put down a bucketload of scheme markers on terrain with your cheap models and use big models to hunt the enemy so they can't remove them.

Power ritual: Usually easy to get full points even when you are obvious about it (which you often are).

It's why Leveticus's ability to take wounds to buff his duels is so strong because he gets  twists to all duels during the action.  Though of course when it's me the second card is the Black Joker!  Twice.  In the same game!

That's what we call karma 

Haha! Sonnia loves facing hanged! They lose their suits and are at - or -- to cast and she ignores all their defences (more or less if you raise wp) and all her minions have dispel actions!

We have Sonnia and Perdita, though. Even Justice can stick it to a Hanged pretty good. Let's not talk about McCabe....

 

And I think that people think that Perdita is horrible because she is hard to kill, blindingly fast, makes her crew faster, can kill most things in the game in one activation and is pretty good at Scheming as well. But that's just a guess.....

Well when you put it like that...   She isn't bad, she is actually really good on her own but what I meant was that it isn't exactly hurting her reputation of being brutal when she comes in a box along with some of the meanest models in the faction who also support her so well. Almost no matter what master people start out with the "what should I get next" is the Latigo box.

On the hanged, that was kinda my point, it's often tied to our master. That is a big part of why Lucius has some really bad matchups and I often find myself wanting to take McCabe or Sonnia just in case the enemy turns out to have incorporeal on every model in the crew. If the Exorcist ever gets a model it might give us one tool available to everyone at least, plus that new guy from Shifting Loyalties so give us a couple of years and we can do it without proxying!

I like you Dirial, you are like the Guilds big brother. Anytime someone puts a Guild model down you are there to defend it and give it some encouragement!

Talk about filthying it up a notch.

We guildies do what we can   There is still no way to get that same F U feeling as when you finally kill a damned hanged (since we have almost nothing to ignore incoropreal) and that bastard pops right back! I think a lot of what makes people think Perdita is so horrible is that you include the family tricks with her.

I hope you keep getting good results from the executioners Fiend, it's always nice with a fresh perspective on things!

 

 

Why not? I like it (Diestro). Quite expensive, true, but man, does it hurt.

As with a lot of other stuff I might have to try it out more, I have a hard time getting enough games in. It just seems like he is already at the top of the opponents kill list and dies early on a lot. Truth be told I have had an aversion towards the family up until a few weeks ago so I haven't played them enough to know what I like or not. Sonnia finally clicked for me after I put Papa in a box and Francisco to buff her defence so now that I can stomach the family I'm expecting to rediscover a few models I had written off previously.

Oh, I thought they were 6 Wds. Well' you have to plink it with something, I guess.

 

Ophelia does that. Not much survives her. If we take that as a measure, you can pretty much field nothing at all.

 

And please be aware that I don't think that Doppelgänger and Samael is the ultimate combo in a Lucius list. It's just a fun thing to do, and Lucius can actually do it.

 

I'd play Judge with his upgrade as Lucius Henchman in any competitive environment.

Judge is always nice.

Copying Francisco actually isn't that bad, if she jumps into melee and pushes everyone out you can shoot in and never randomize for her which is usually what you are after but you never want to give Francisco that 3ss upgrade.

Waldgeists actually survive two applications, they're 7 wounds armour 2 and fire weirdly enough doesn't negate armour. 

My problem may have been that I have tried this combo against Ophelia both times so she started at untouchable range, pushed close, ignored my cover since she has a   built in and then shot Samael to death in one activation on turn 1 or 2 even when I used soulstones to prevent damage on every attack.

I guess I just have to try it a few more times and hope that people start playing different lists 

In my case I should probably just go for a ton of shots I guess, people rarely hand around within rapid range but the doppleganger could crank out 2 shots after walking with the right card.

Flaming Bullets would be nice, had forgotten that. Getting stuff to burn has been problematic for me but should potentially be nasty, my problem is that people usually engage something of mine or kill Samael from afar so he needs to be behind terrain and thus can't charge. The problem with a Witchling putting burning on stuff is that they can't hit for shit when shooting so it needs to be in melee and then you just randomise away half the hits (at the very least half the hits when I flip).

Without Slug, it's not that great.

 

 

Only while not in a box, where he should be. Take the Emissary if you want to copy it.

 

 

Granted. That one is pretty cool.

 

I want to copy Francisco's Enfrentate a Mi! and just use it 3 times, to bowling ball along the enemy lines one day... but that's not a competitive thing to do, I think.

Well I'll agree that it's dangerous to play Papa Outside the box but some turns it happens. Abuela I  was thinking for the blasts. Since it's a (0) to copy I sometimes move up, focus, copy (if I know I can cheat the tome to get to take the action). The problem is that none of the combos are good enough to warrant the stones, not even the Samuel one is even close to as evil as it should be. She is good at scheming and just sort of sticking close enough to copy a decent shooting attack from someone.

P. 71, big rulebook, SS cost shout-out box.

Thanks! Ironically I often miss the shout out boxes when reading the normal text for stuff in an effort to find rules

On the Dopplegänger: Abuela, Papa Loco and Sidir all have quite nice shooting attacks. Since Lucius can make minions interact while engaged it's not that bad to have melee-constructs as minions and keep a couple of scary big models out of the big center scrap to hunt enemy schemers. It's also nice to be able to use Sidir's "Empty the Magazine" even if he himself is engaged or double up on it by having the Dopplegänger use it first and Sidir going second to use the trigger which only works on already slow stuff anyways.

The problem with her is that you have at least 2 expensive models when you usually want good minions to make Lucius work.

Could try a Beckoner for Vendetta - double Lure, beat it up with something, Lucius commands her for the coup de grace. Or take a Ronin. The Merc Tax doesn't count for Schemes, and she should be able to kill a 6 SS model.

Are you sure about the merc tax? Can't find that in my book.

(Rant-whining)

What master does better when you don't know what you will face: McCabe... Always McCabe. He gives out lots of AP, gets you pushes and makes your hounds significant so you can do any scheme with ease and can negate almost all the conditions models use to survive in the entire game (though not impossible to wound). No matter what the enemy declares and regardless of schemes and strats McCabe is going to be crazy good, he gets good mileage from any model in the entire guild and he can fill out with hounds to out-activate anyone except Gremlins. Izamu with a Grave Spirit behind him, yup goes down after one or two 3ss dogs charge in... Enemy brought only spirits, yup I do my usual damage... You engaged my shooter, nope, pushed him and made him nimble.

There was a discussion a while back on Colette which transferred into a discussion on Lucius. A lot of people had a hard time seeing his strengths and the ones who liked him all played him in neverborn as far as I remember. The good news is I can play him against the newer players in our local group since they don't appreciate facing Sonnia anymore 

(/End rant-whining)

On the actual topic i have a few suggestions: I use 1 Rifleman, maaaybe 2 but 3 is never worth it in my opinion. Any opponent who is half-capable can lock them all up T1 or 2 if they stay together. They can also take a shortcut and just kill them about as fast since they are sturdy like wet paper bags. The trap is that you try to keep them together which makes the enemy's job easy. I've had some success using a single Rifleman who hangs around another shooter like a Pathfinder or Austringer, preferably with someone to block off the obvious aproach to them. Pathfinders do good work against Waldgeists if you can get them before they engage you. For countering melee threats you might want to go to our old auto-include Francisco Ortega with his two favourite upgrades since he can push your dudes out of melee or wipe the floor with the foolish enemy who tried to engage your Riflemen if you keep him within charge range and activate him late in the turn. He actually buffs you and wrecks face so he fits two of your categories above! Not sure about his own staying power but compared to Riflemen he fits that category 

On the topic of our favourite family I have another (Warning: untried and volatile) idea: Papa Loco gives dynamite to a minion *gasp*, I think probably a Pathfinder for sweet, sweet blasts. Minion then shoots twice and Lucius then forces it to shoot two more times (and you might want to give it defensive since the enemy is gonna hate that poor sucker). Should also work on a decent melee minion that you try to get to charge in near Lucius for   to attacks (not sure on the activation order here).

... Wolsu g is a small game with a few cool constructs in fitting style generally but not for the peacekeeper specifically.

My metal peacekeeper can take a beating, you just need to pin the legs and any arms you pose extremestyle. Judging from other plastic releases the peacekeeper will come in a gazillion bits and be a hassle. I eould look into cygnar or mercs from WM to proxy guild constructs. Wolsung

Ignores Armor, 2/3/5 Damage, trigger to either Push or   damage flip. Also Hard to Kill and can't be targeted for a Charge. Only downside is Ml 5 on the attack.

A very big upside of Ronin is that they are minions with flurry. Lucius can easily put minions in melee range to flurry and give them    to attack flips.