Ludvig

I might add on no 3 that the enemy could potentially block the placement of Ikiryo with models and/or impassable terrain so you can't do it.

1 Yes, +1 burning per damaging attack so 2 buening if both hit.

2 No, the duel against enemy to hit is what tives triggers

3 yes. She only needs LoS and range to her own model being damaged.

I must have misunderstood your question. I did mention several models I think are very good when buffed by McCabe and promises and did something close to a straight up list as well as reasoning why I hold that opinion. You didn't specify I wasn't allowed to list constructs in that list and you didn't say I needed to argue against Hoffman using the same constructs. I thought you wanted to hear which lists made me think McCabe was good in Guild?

What McCabe brings that Hoffman doesn't: You aren't auto-losing if the enemy brings a bunch of metal gamin or incorporeal models. Hoffman has nothing in his list that can put a dent in incorporeal models and metal gamin have a ca 8 that does 2dmg ignoring armour to constructs at 18" if I remember correctly. In fact the guild faction as a whole has almost nothing to apply to incorporeal stuff or to get around htk (and especially those god-awful metal gamin who are harder to take down than Samael who costs 9ss). When you are facing Nicodem summoning in 2-5 hanged in a game, Ignoring Incorporeal and getting positives to Wp isn't something to sniff at. Those big constructs with a lot of wounds and being able to heal also loses a lot of value.

The reason I play McCabe is not so much  from promises but the likely possibility of facing Hard to Kill, Incorporeal, Hard to Wound and the fact that he gives mobility to otherwise slow models.

Quoted from the other thread: 2 players starter, any use for me?

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Shackles of the guild??

You have got to be kidding me, right? The shackles of sub-par, the shackles of other crews doing the same thing better.......

Don't get me wrong, guild has it's great stuff (Hoffman stuff), and even some of it is unique to the guild, but as for the rest...........

BAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!

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(You then posted this with a direct quote to Dirial asking if you could bring any hard evidence of the guild being subpar)

Lucius command being restricted to minions, non Austringer minions.

Lucius Commanding presence (?) failure side effect being -paralyze-

Sonnia with less skills than Kearis

Lady J with less control than Lillith

The latigo posse being outgunned, and out AP'ed by gremlins.

McCabe being simply -better- in 10T

Lucius being simply -better- as NB

Doctor Doug being simply -better- in Resser than Guild.

Guild has some awesome models, (oh hey, most work with Hoffman, who I have said nothing about......) and they are my most bought faction and favourite faction, but to consider a lot of their stuff more than "alpha testing" for other factions special rules??

Come on man!

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Here you are listing him as one of the reasons guild is the worst faction in the game, not as a strong point of guild. I'm not saying he is better in Guild than in TT but he does bring a lot to Guild. I also said that I have far too little experience to say anything about where he is best. I'm sorry if I interpreted you using caps lock and laughing at the entire faction (except Hoffman) and straight out calling it subpar as you thinking the faction is subpar. 

Hoffman being good doesn't make McCabe or promises worse in any way, they are both good options with a slightly different edge against certain stuff, I don't see what Hoffman brings to this conversation.

Both me and Math reacted to your statement since it looked like you were saying he wasn't that good in Guild. Your exact words were "McCabe being simply -better- in 10T" which implies not that he is super in both factions but you personally prefer TT. The above emphasis and phrasing makes it sound like you have tried everything and have empirical evidence that he is always better in any matchup in TT. I mentioned the pain train in guild which I've enjoyed playing when the scheme pool is kill-heavy and the strat doesn't mind you bunching up. I'm not at all saying he is better or worse in any faction, I think he is simply super strong in both and would have a hard time saying he is "simply - better -" in one of them. This also depends heavily on the board and who you are facing as usual in this game.

The pain train has looked little diffrent for me at times but you basically take McCabe with promises, badge of speed and the saber. Use a couple of heavy hitters like Francisco, Ryle, Judge, Peacekeeper etc. and sprinkle in some minions or another semi-hard model. Nice minions are wardens or death marshals and then Luna with a canine buddy or two if you have something that needs doing scheme-wise. I have also used Papa Loco which makes things beatiful! I use him to give "hold this" to the model with the saber or one of the big guys. A warden can swing the saber with 3/5/6 dmg and  to damage flips, add reactivate if you need to. You can also use the  to damage and saber on one of the bigger guys with flurry if you need to. If you are ballsy and don't bury Loco he can give his buff to the same two targets you throw the saber around to and the saber has a big jump between weak and moderate so it benefits a lot from that. 

A lot of the crew doesn't need to bother with the saber at all since they have stellar damage by themselves so they just stick around for the plus flips and get pushed into flurry range. Francisco can really make McCabe into a roadblock so that he can tie up enemy models and prevent them from doing their thing. With Df 9 Wp 8, even most masters will struggle to hit (don't forget to make him defensive with Luna). Francisco can be squishy but can also really lock stuff down with his  to melee if the enemy is heavily invested in that.

Playing him exclusively as Guild and not having any TT players with a lot of experience nearby I'm sure I haven't seen an optimal TT build and I'm positive he can do a lot of nasty things in TT too. I'm just not sure he is so bad in Guild that he is an argument for the Guild being the worst faction in the game as you made him out to be.

Edit: Forgot about companioning, it can sometimes tip you over the edge if an enemy has a model that can heal and needs to be dealt with in one activation. A chain of Ryle, McCabe or Peacekeeper followed by Francisco can often kill stuff your opponent were hoping to keep alive before they get to activate and mitigate it. TT can use the hounds but I'm not sure they have many models with super high min dmg like the Peacekeeper (5 if you cheat a ram).

A few players around my parts keep a spreadsheet of their own games. The problem would be to compile all that data to make sure the same games aren't entered twice. Maybe if everyone paid their local henchman in beer to start keeping these sort of stats for entire groups we could get that data. In tournament play all the info should be there and maybe still exist long after, the trouble is finding someone with the time for it.

Then we have the trouble of different skill levels between players and number of available models that of course influence results...

Watcher + austringer is a nice trick and the sergeant could push that marker 4 extra inches for 19". I really son't see Queeg helping since his interact aura is small and requires you to have done a (1) action with him so only affects models 11" up the board.

If I could choose between the enemy focusing down  (or paralyzing ) my emmissary or justice I would probably say it's my gain if they pick the emmissary. The watcher doesn't offer any counter threat or survivability to help justice even if it is a really good way to get her up the board. I shall have to keep looking for ways to get markers far up the field.

Good call on the judge, that gives more flexibilty in the lists. 

I think you'll mostly want to unbury near the emmissary t1 since my opponents are super restrictive in placing scheme markers so early. I rarely see markers placed before t4 and the emmissary can get 17" up the board. If you have a way to place a marker of your own further up the board t1 please tell us!

Yup, as soon as I find a proxy I'm trying that. McCabe is kinda brutal and has the right base size. 

I was also thinking francisco using el mayor on justice and moving up to push the effigy before it boxes her. That gives justice about 16 inches of movement and makes her really hard to target t1 so she can wreck face. 

It's rare 1 anyway so even if it didn't go away you would have too many A&D in your arsenal and never get to use them.

The original A&D you hired is not taken off your roster so I really don't see the problem. 

I remember the combo being really strong but I don't think it would have broken the game and made Lucius so strong that he won every match ever. The problem is that attacks getting to target you no matter what doesn't lead to fun games, I think it was taken away for player enjoyment rather than balance (which is probably good).

It might be more of a question of our poor Lady being misunderstood and poorly used. Whoever won whatever tourney I was ranting about earlier was using Justice for most matches which has to mean something. 

Play Collodi if you like winning. Play Lucius if you like his model. You don't need them both from a playing standpoint but somehow you usually end up with an entire faction before you know it.

Hehe, Since when do Austringers NOT need focus? Their dmg profile screams focus and their attack has a doubled range when focused... There is a reason they are specifically disallowed from being issued commands to but allowed to be commanded by his presence and that is because basically their whole thing is focus.  I'm not even sure any other model in the game has a personal clause preventing just that model from using an ability, please correct me if I'm wrong. If Lucius could issue commands to Austringers he would probably be one of the most hated masters in the game (not sure if he would be strong still but hated for sure).

I would also like to disagree a little on your rundown of Collodi vs Lucius. I would argue that in the best case scenario Lucius has a fearsome damage potential. However having played him I can tell you that you are going to need to use 3-4 cards each turn for his actions alone so you need a super good hand to make anything work. Collodi can play his hand as he likes and not give a crap since he knows he does his thing automatically and adds a  when he obeys etc. That lets him use cards to keep stuff alive and make sure some important stuff hits. If he runs out of minions or just needs to he has a really cool attack with horrible stuff for controlling enemies.

Back to Lucius you have the fact that he needs a brickload of rams for the stuff you really want like Hidden sniper even going off(!) and getting the RIGHT extra action on his command spell. All of the models you mentioned commanding also like rams so they tend to run out fast. So all of a sudden you are issuing command, failing that flip and realising that the two cards in your hand that can get you that focused action from a minion are 11 or 12 because you don't have any 7-10 cards in hand. And that 11-12 you were often rather hoping to use on the actual attack or a defensive duel.

But he can get around and bring minions with him! Yup, except that black joker hasn't popped out this turn, are you really that keen to use those walks to do horror checks with a   giving you an even higher chance of paralyzing your own models?

On the topic of Collodi vs Zoraida I can only say that Collodi doesn't fly 15" or tell Mature Nephilims with Mimic's blessing on them to start walking to the enemy half of the table before activating so you can keep that buff up right until you charge almost into the enemy deployment zone. Use Zoraida with a few perfectly camouflaged models is my tip. And that vodoo doll... Zoraida has some nasty tricks and uses bigger models than Collodi. Collodi might be the most powerful and he can easily change up his game if you switch upgrades.

Whoa there Carcosa. 

I'll admit I do like to whine about Lucius but it's a bit much to just say the whole faction is the worst in the game. I seem to remember a fairly large event recently being won by Lady J?

I'd take Sonnia over Kaeris any day of the week! Less skills on the card maybe but look at Sonnia's stuff!

I can see where the Lady J vs Lilith thing comes from. LJ has one more dmg on her sword and 4 more wounds, Lilith has a lot of very powerful control opportunities which I think gives her an edge in a lot of games.

The McCabe thing I do not get at all. He has a couple of cool minions in TT but the Guild pain train with promises buffing all our brutal henchmen is a thing of beauty that I've never seen equalled in TT. In my eyes the TT has a lot of already fast models who get a little faster while the guild's slow dudes are simply amazing if given a nudge in the right direction.

This reminds me of a very long thread on the guild boards a while back... It will be really interesting to see some stats after Nythera. If any Wyrdos are listening in on this: Please make the stats public - like how many matches each faction won against each other! It would be really cool to have more info actually. Like people being able to voluntarily enter Master, SS level and Strat - would give a lot of data.

Nice to hear you are doing well! The list of scenarios weren't meant as a put-down but rather things to consider since those are models that cause a lot of grief in my meta and might be worth considering a counter for. I haven't played the campaign but gave my opinion on what models have made me almost give up on riflemen. Walking up and engaging them is an excellent counter as long as you have a cheap durable model. Shooting them is usually not very satisfying since you will generally be at - - from their ability in tandem with cover. 

How did you handle the trappers? I have a lot of bad experiences against them at lower points and have struggled to figure out a solution. I have found they are really fun to play against if your enemy doesn't know how fast Ryle is and deploys them far forward  Would love more  tricks.

Ah, missed that part. That messes up my planned bury shenanigans with enemy models too.  

Hey everyone!

I'll throw this out at the risk of looking like a complete beginner (wouldn't be the first time).

 Lady Js emmissary upgrade says it can't be buried or reactivated t1. I figured this must be to disallow some specific interaction but I cant't figure out what it would be. The Guild doesn't have any non-minion reactivates and neither does Justice to my knowledge. It would reasonably be tied to the ability to bury Justice.

Is it future proofing, something in another faction or am I missing something big here?

I usually use the cards but if I have a lot of multiples of one model I use dice. If I risk getting confused I put them on the base since I have mostly flat bases.

For activations I use flat glass beads next to unactivated models which makes it very clear for both my opponent and me. If I know I'm heading for a particularly weird activation I use a different colour of beads for my ap - this can be models with infinite attack triggers or some model obeying another model to do an attack with a trigger for more etc. It's usually appreciated by my opponents.

Yep, just remembered that part. That could sting a bit 

Mm, that would give them quite a decent threat range.

Anything particular in mind for Justice or just the regular facewrecking + minionboosting?

Do the orderlies get extra move and charge from the handler? Haven't remembered to check but thought it was only stalkers?

Have you tried this list against Sonnia? I have played Sonnia against a very similar list and there weren't many models left after turn 1. (Not gonna come up in the campaign but worth thinking about to think of how to handle.

More campaign related scenarios to consider below.

1: Langston with imbued energies goes after you riflemen t1 killing one and engaging the other. 

2: The enemy deploys 2 Freikorp Trappers (range 28 and each trapper will one-shot a hound or rifleman each turn).

3: The enemy deploys 2 Waldgeist from the shadows, moves up and engages your riflemen with one and the other is blocking your hounds.

These are a couple of thought exercises to consider for any potential campaign list.

Very solid base! I would feel the urge to cram in 4pt models to reach the max number of models available. If I am not mistaken you get a 5ss discount on your first purchase each week so it would be nice to take maximum advantage of that by having 5-6ss models on your purchase list instead of 4pt models. Maybe a couple of watcher buddies for your brutal effigy to help schemes.

Back to the initial question: Definetly one austringer to hit cowards avoiding LoS or scheme with unimpeded if needed. Also good if they manage to lock you down with Candy or something similar.

The condition removal from the stalker can save the day but the pathfinder could probably be very successful in stuff like squatters rights or for getting slow on something big and nasty. I would probably favour the stalker because Ryle is a paralyze magnet.

This list would probably pass the dreaded "Imbued Langston" test but might struggle against double nurses without the stalker. 

Without knowing your opposition you might want to take a look at all new + old strategies and do a scheme flip to get an idea about what you will need to accomplish and prevent.

I didn't have time for Malifaux or the forums during most of the wave 3 so I missed a bunch of stuff. That is a very good point that I had not considered. I still think it sucks that we have so few casts in general but Hoffman really doesn't need that kind of boost.

Once again those metal gamin thwart my plans! This is going to get personal! 

Edit: I will take some comfort in the spellcasters, they also have the bonus of having Lucius synergy and are cheap enough to be taken as a safety.

Greetings from your friendly neighboorhood Guild watchman. I have been working myself up about the Brutal Emissary over the last weeks and singing his praise. I love the art and the old goat was gonna be perfect by finally adding an actual Ca attack worth the name so we guildies could damage incorporeal stuff. In all the beta downloads I had checked he/she/it had a solid Ca 6 which didn't seem to change for several weeks. Today I buy the new book and lo and behold his Rule of Law is now Sh! Why?! We really really really didn't need another Sh attack, the entire faction have Sh attacks with similar damage profiles. What we are sorely lacking is Ca attacks and the emissary looked like the perfect fit to plug that hole. Is this a misprint or actually intended? I checked the other emissaries and several of them have super solid Ca attacks with similar ranges and damage profiles. What gives?