Ludvig

Touché. That is a very valid point. I have gone away from quoting rules.

I wouldn't say I continue to fail to prove the manner in which actions must be listed, I have in one post failed to do so and I don't think you've asked several times. I did prove why Abuela can't use hers but Brewie can use his which is what you asked.

My reasoning is mostly derived from my understanding of p 20-21 where the paragraph named "actions" says "Actions are special Attacks or maneuvers that a model can take when it Activates." This could as you imply indicate that nothing listed anywhere else is considered an action. It does highlight that some things need to be assumed in this game. I still think that when something is explixitly stated to be an action I would say it is safe to assume it is an action and that printed means printed in the most common denotation of the word.

On the topic of civility during discussion I see that you are expressing a feeling of being slighted. I am not trying to be an ass or anything it was just that some arguments seemed off the point to me. I realize now we were discussing from very different points of view in regards to a model being able to use anything printed on it's card. 

I also assumed you were willfully omitting the paragraph on actions which was directly following a paragraph you used as an argument and since that paragraph explained the exact thing you were arguing against that seemed dishonest to me. I described you and Bengt as having a "different" definition than me of the word printed which is neutral in my eyes. I'm not sure my definition of listed is really a "violation" as you claim since that is a very strong word. It's easy to get caight up in these discussions. I am sorry if my arguments have seemed downputting or harsh and I apoligize for that to anyone who feels that way.

I will sign off for real this time and will have trouble participating in the forums for a couple of days. I will take another look at the question from the point of view you have expressed but in all probability we will keep disagreeing. I will try to not join this thread when I return and just play the game in peace. Good night!

Nothing in the rules state that you can automatically take any action printed on your card. You can take the actions printed on the back of your card since that is where the unique actions the model can take are listed.

Nowhere whatsoever is it stated "a model may take any action printed anywhere on it's card". If an action is listed anywhere other than the list at the back of your card under the headings "attack actions" or "tactical actions" it needs to have text making it available in some way like Abuelas and Brewmasters abilities and most upgrades. The brewmaster can take a swig since everyone in an aura can take it, Abuela can't push herself since only friendlies that aren't the same model can take that action. The Doppleganger however can take any (1) action printed on a card or upgrade, not just the ones listed at the back. The Doppleganger cares not if the action is available to the model it mimics.

I would say she can't use it since it specifically granted to other friendly models and she is the same friendly model. Are you saying friendly models can't push Abuela since the action isn't separate? How familiar are you with the rules? 

Can the brewmaster use (1) On the house according to you? He can if you ask me since he is friendly to himself.

You really seemed like you were advocating leaving the upgrade at home in lieu of more soulstones to prevent damage.

Cheap models for marker schemes and activation control. 3 hounds or two watchers probably.

You still haven't showed me the rules text that tells me to ignore the standard english definition of the word printed in favour of a more specific version of printed that is a specific Malifaux rule. 

You are telling me that Abuela ortega does not have text printed on her card that describes a (0) action called Polite Push. That text does not exist according to you. You have yet to give me a reference that states actions have to be printed separately to be defined as actions in this game.

Yes I agree that Backstab is granted by the Ability Typical Politician. The crux of this matter is that the doppleganger's action states I can take an action that is printed anywhere on a card. Is has no caveat that the action can't be part of an ability, it just has to be in printed on a card and defined as an action. I can see the action because it is printed, I can see that it is defined as an action, therefore I am allowed to copy it.

 Since "printed" is just a reference to the mode in which text was put on the card everything you can read on a card is printed on it. Nothing in the game automatically says a model can take actions printed on their card, the action part of the rules never mentions the word printed. Some actions are printed on cards in such a way as to allow the model itself to take them, some actions are printed in such a way as to allow other models to take them. The doppleganger can copy any (1) actions that are described in print on a non-leader card, it doesn't mention if the (1) action has to be available to the model it is copied from and since I'm not in the habit of inventing restrictions that don't exist I haven't invented a new restriction in this case but gone by the actual wording of the ability.

If backstab is an action described in print on the card the doppleganger can take it. If it is not an action described in print but some obscure sort of ability then Lucius will not be able to take an action by this card being in his crew since no action exists.

Our argument seems to be about the interpretation of the word "printed" more than anything else. I now see that you both have a different definition of this word (that is not defined in any other way in the rules of Malifaux). I see no possible way to resolve this disagreement. I will just leave this argument at us agreeing to disagree. I will keep playing my way, you keep playing your way. We will just have to hope this doesn't show up in a tournament game between us (which is highly unlikely anyway). I will no doubt be seeing you in future discussions on this forum  

1 Regarding the anatomy of the cards we only have page 20-21 for stat cards and 22 for upgrades. Page 21 says that you can use the actions in the action section. The upgrade page doesn't say anything useful, so I guess if one would want to be contrary one could argue that no upgrades ever does anything since the effects section on page 22 isn't more detailed, but I think everyone agrees that it would be silly to do so.

2 Something that isn't described in rules but has been praxis for upgrades is to allocate any Talents on them with the > prompts, even if the Talents are for other models, e.g. Hard Worker (rulebook p 270) which have "> Friendly Foundry models within LoS gains the following Tactical Action:". The use of an Ability is as far as I know new and one might wonder why this was chosen instead of just "> The Crew's leader gains the following Attack Action:", which would be shorter and less convoluted.

3 This has lead me to the conclusion that "Typical Politician" is the last Talent on the upgrade, the text for "Backstab" is supposed to be embedded in the text for "Typical Politician" and is only typographically looking like it does because it would be hard to read it if it was mushed into "Typical Politician" without separation. Hence there are no Actions printed on this Upgrade.

1 The fact that upgrade cards themselves state that they give models actions I think we can safely assume thats how they work.

2 Don't know what you are trying to say with this. We are trying to determine if the words are physically printed on the card or not. We are also trying to determine if those words are roughly in the shape of how an action is normally formulated (if we remove all other text on the card and copy paste the thing I consider to be describing an action and you don't, will it look like an action on the doppleganger's card?). Not who can normally take it. Hard worker is a bad example since it gives a (0). Let's use depression (p193) instead - "Other friendly woes withing LoS gain the following attack action: (1) Melancholy..." By this upgrade all woes in LoS gain an action. The action is however printed on an upgrade. The doppleganger couldn't copy this action if it was within range of a woe since it still isn't printed on the woes card, the woe has just gained the ability to take it. (We have to imagine the doppleganger is out of LoS to the upgrade carrier since she is herself a woe and would otherwise gain it automatically).

Physically printed on the card is a foolish argument, because what you're claiming is "This block of text on the card looks like an action, so I'm going to claim it is one."

Why is physically printed a foolish argument? We have nothing defining printed as anything else than actually printed. You are claiming that "physically printed but only if printed right next to a >" is a more probable interpretation.

Actually I claim that the words "While this model is in play, this Crew's leader gains the following Attack Action:" from the card means that what follows is clearly an attack action. If this card does not contain a printed attack action then Lucius doesn't gain anything from this since what follows is not an action in this game but something else.

Here's a simple counter example.  Look at the following text:

Black Blood: All models without Black Blood within p1 suffer 1 damage when this model suffers damage.

What is that text?  Is it an ability, a condition, an action?  I chose this particular example because the exact same text is used in defining the Black Blood condition and the Black Blood ability.  So the meaning of that text changes depending on where it appears on the card.  The same text labled Black Blood in the Abilities section of a card is an Ability, and the exact same text labeled Black Blood is used to define a condition.

I really don't see the words "gains the following action" anywhere in this text so I am fairly certain black blood is not an action. Furthermore all actions need a printed AP cost within a parenthesis which this talent does not have.

In a similar manner, while the game talks about Actions in a generic sense, there's no such thing as an Action that not either a Tactical Action or Attack Action.  The rulebook even admits to this when it says:

Whether standard or unique, all Actions fall into two categories, they are either Tactical Actions or Attack Actions.

So in order to define an Action, it must be specified whether the action is a Tactical Action or an Attack Action.

Now you are outright lying. The next paragraph on that page actually defines that for us: "Attack actions are action that a target model resists, while Tactical Actions are those that a model performs without resistance from other models." Did you miss that next paragraph?

Every single upgrade card, and avatar card, in the game contains text of the form "This model gains the following ________" followed by a block of text that conforms to the formatting specified for whatever it is that the model is gaining.  That line of text is what defines that (to copy/paste from one of Ryles upgrade cards) the text

(0) A Memory Stirs: Discard target Scrap Marker within 6" and LoS to gain the following Condition for the rest of the game: "Something Lost +1: This model gains +1 Wp."

is defining a Tactical Action.

Likewise for the example card shown in the rulebook for the Child of December upgrade card:

Rasputina gains the following Attack Action:

(0) Shatter (Ca 7t / TN: 10t / Rst: Wp / Rg 10): Target a Paralyzed model. The target suffers --to all duels for the remainder of the Turn.

 The line of text in red is necessary to define what the rest of the text means.  Otherwise, it's simple nonsense.  The primary cards for models use the nice, attractive section labels instead of that sort of text, but the same purpose is served.  An Ability, Tactical Action or Attack Action on a model's card is what it is because it is placed on the card identified as such.

Interesting. Please read the Upgrade Justice Unleashed for Lady Justice (p 112 base rulebook). It states the following

Lady Justice gains the following abilities:

(0) Last Rites: Remove all corpse and Scrap Markers within  6.

(1) Justice Unleashed (It goes on to describe what stat you use and what toughness you need to hit etc.)

Nowhere does it state that these abilities are tactical actions. They do however conform to the basic layout of a tactical action in this game. I'm pretty sure I have seen multiple people trying to use these as tactical actions.

Even Lady Justice's action aside. Look at the card in question! It clearly says that a model is gaining an attack action. Then the action follows and conforms to all the specifics of an attack action.

And the reason you're not allowed to just randomly pull Abilities, Conditions, Tactical Actions or Attack Actions out of other Abilities, Conditions, Tactical Actions or Attack Actions and claim that they're printed on the cards is simple:  My quote for Shatter is incomplete.  If I attempted to claim that Rasputina's Shatter without the next few lines of text defining its triggers, that isn't how the attack is defined.  There are all sorts of things defined on cards where players would love to be able to cherry pick text and go "I don't like the last few sentences of this tactical action, so I'll just use the shorter tactical action that I do like.

Additionally, here's part of the text for the Guild Lawyer's Special Damages Attack Action:

(1) Special Damages (Ca 6t / Rst: Wp / Rg: 12): Target non-Leader gains the following Condition for the rest of the game: "Fees +1: After completing an Attack Action which dealt damage to another model, this model suffers +1 damage."

The Guild Lawyer does not have the Fees +1 Condition.  The fact that those words are printed on the card as part of text defining something else means that the words aren't a condition on the model.

But you do concede that the words are printed on that card right? I have never said that the Emmissary can take the action in question, just that it is printed on the card.

I am in now way trying to cherry pick somethin either. The doppleganger cannot copy abilities, therefore I am not allowed to trasfer the ability to her. Her action does however allow her to "select a (1) action printed on target non-leaders card". So I select the action (defined as an action by it being called an action right there on the card as well as being formulated exactly as actions are genereally formulated) in it's entirety, I just don't select the ability granting the action since I am not allowed to copy abilities that aren't actions. I am not cherry picking, I am following the rules of the action I am taking. Then I crossed out the trigger since the doppleganger isn't allowed to declare triggers on borrowed actions.

Because, again, cherry picking sections of text from the card isn't allowed.  That's the same reason why the text on Abuela Ortega's card in the Abilities section

"Roll Me Closer, Dear": Other friendly models within a3 gain the following Action: "(0) Polite Push: Push target friendly Abuela Ortega within 3" up to 5" in any direction." Only one friendly model may take this Action per Turn.

 defines an Ability named Roll Me Closer, Dear.  That means that the Roll Me Closer, Dear ability is printed on Abuela's card, but the Polite Push action is not.

The whole block of text is the ability, not whatever subsections a player might prefer.

This right here. Please tell me where in the rulebook the term "printed" is defined so that you can tell me that your reasoning is true. The way I see it you have an ability granting an action. Both are printed on the card albeit in the same paragraph. Just because something is in a paragraph with something else it is not considered "not printed" unless you can show me why that is (and I mean cold, hard rules text, not your opinion). 

The "no cheating if black joker" is not specific to any particular flip but is always active during any flip as per the basic rules of the game.

The term printed is never listed in the base rules regarding actions. Therefore it is not a defined game term but a reference to the english word "printed" defined as:

"To produce (books, newspapers, etc.), especially in large quantities, by a mechanical process involving the transfer of text or designs to paper." (google: "printed definition") In this case the cards are what's printed. Every word of text and even the symbols on the cards were put there  by the process known as printing defined above and so are printed on the card. Nothing in the Malifaux rules define printed in any other way.

The doppleganger's ability states that you select a printed action on a non-leader's card. You do not select an entire paragraph but a (1) action. There is no mention of selecting an isolated action. You just need to find something defined as a (1) action that is not on a leaders card or upgrades. The (1) Backstab action is clearly mentioned as an action granted to a model. The upgrade is attached to your emmissary and Lucius is needed as your leader for the upgrade to be legally attached. It was put on the upgrade card by the process known in english as printing and is therefore printed.

As per the above it is legal for the doppleganger to copy the (1) Backstab action.

I would probably drop fears given form from Lucius to upgrade a rifleman to an austringer. I'm not sure fears gives Lucius that much. Does leave Lucius with very few minions he can actually command which might be a problem if your enemy can identify targets properly. but then again riflemen are not super minions in that regard to begin with since half the models in the game one shot them. Maybe drop Nexus and the scribe as well to make one or both riflemen into illuminated.

I agree with the Strumpet. Better to have options since you already have one Marshal to box Papa with (especially if that option is one of the best minions in the game).

I'm not saying this action is not a part of the ability. I am saying that the ability clearly describes a (1) action and the doppleganger can copy any (1) action that is printed. Can you point me to the page in the rules that state that an action is not considered printed on the card if it appears in the context of another ability? The doppleganger doesn't say you copy "an action clearly distangled from any other text on the card and given to a model with a separate >". It copies and action that is printed on said card. This action is printed on the card and therefore I copy it until you give me official rules text clearly explaining how I can't because the action is not considered printed.

You don't select a pragraph, you select a (1) action.

If the Typical politician ability does not describe an action called Backstab then Lucius has not gained a new action either so he can't take backstab attacks.

Once again I would ask you to back your position with quoted official rules text referenced with a page number/card name and not just state what you think. If you like you can do what I did and take a pic of the actual text so I can see for myself what rule support you have for your position on the matter. I have fail to find any rules text making this ambiguous. I'm aprticularly interested in the fact that you state that something has to be printed in a very specific way and isolated from all other text to be considered an action. Can you show me the rules text explaining this?

Maybe some images will help to clarify my point:

On the first image is the dopplegangers card. All the text you see here is printed. There we also see the standard form of writing out an action as I am sure you can agree? I've also underscored the procedure we are about to take later in this demo.

Below is the upgrade in question. I tooke the liberty of highlighting what I consider to be actions. The red rectangle is highlighting an action printed on the card. The blue rectangle is highlighting an action not printed on the card but written there by hand by yours truly. As you see above the doppleganger copies action's printed on cards. It can copy the red action since it is printed. It can't copy the blue action since that is made up. It cannot copy anything else from this card since the rest of the printed text on this card is not describing actions.

That action looks like it's printed in a very similar manner as the others to me and this is straight off the card. Please elaborate and quote the rules section explaining how this action is in fact not printed on the card because of other circumstances.

Below we see a sloppy attempt att emulating what the doppleganger's ability does. I may take the action "as if it had been printed on this model's card". Had in been properly printed it would be up with the attack actions but you get the point perhaps? Since it can't declare triggers from the action I took the liberty of crossing it out.

In the above example it is possible that the emmissay is close to the brewmaster and able to take the "(1) On the house" action. We don't know because that action is only granted to the emmissary as oppossed to printed on it's card.

1 The fact that upgrade cards themselves state that they give models actions I think we can safely assume thats how they work.

2 Don't know what you are trying to say with this. We are trying to determine if the words are physically printed on the card or not. We are also trying to determine if those words are roughly in the shape of how an action is normally formulated (if we remove all other text on the card and copy paste the thing I consider to be describing an action and you don't, will it look like an action on the doppleganger's card?). Not who can normally take it. Hard worker is a bad example since it gives a (0). Let's use depression (p193) instead - "Other friendly woes withing LoS gain the following attack action: (1) Melancholy..." By this upgrade all woes in LoS gain an action. The action is however printed on an upgrade. The doppleganger couldn't copy this action if it was within range of a woe since it still isn't printed on the woes card, the woe has just gained the ability to take it. (We have to imagine the doppleganger is out of LoS to the upgrade carrier since she is herself a woe and would otherwise gain it automatically).

It's the same with "Power Loop" from Hoffman. You can use another model's printed stat. Doesn't matter if their Df is currently higher or lower, you use what is physically printed on the card.

3 The text is shaped that way because it it describing an action and that is how actions are physically printed on cards to make it clear they are in fact actions. The text on the conflux says "...this crew's leader gains the following Attack Action:" Thereby making it abundantly clear that the text is describing an action. The action also looks exactly like actions are supposed to look.

There is no reason to examine the context the action appeaqs in in the text. Is there an action physically printed on this card as opposed to granted from another model or ability and just noted down with a marker? Then the doppleganger can take it as per her ability.

But the text preceding the action on the card specifically states this action can't be used by this model but is granted to another model. The default is that you can use action's printed on your card but if something explicitly states you can't do it on the card surely that has to take precedence over general rules? If something spelled out on a card couldn't change the basic rules then a lot of abilities wouldn't work. The specific text on the card says nothing however about not counting as printed on this card.

Also this statement Solkan: "In order for the action to be printed on the card, those words have to printed on the card in the appropriate manner.  Embedded in paragraph of text for an Ability is not how an Action is printed on a card." - Can you tell me where the book says exactly in what way actions need to be printed to actually be considered printed?

Can we step back a minute.

"The rulebook says that actions printed on a model's card can be used by that model.  Therefore, the emissary can use the action printed on the card, and card doesn't say anything because that would be redundant.

That's the conclusion that "If the words are printed on the card, it's good enough" leads to."

The example you give above is confusing. No one is saying the conflux can use the action. We are saying that the doppleganger can. Just because the doppleganger's rule let's you use actions the model cannot use itself it doesn't make the model able to use an action it is specifically disallowed from using. The specific action the doppleganger has says "if it's printed anywhere on the card it's good enough for me to borrow it" is our argument. 

This was what I was after.

I can't find the exact passage equating to roughly "a model can use all actions printed anywhere on it's card and upgrades no manner in the way it is presented" in the rulebook, please enlighten me with a page reference because I might be missing it. I also haven't found "printed" defined as a game term, maybe there is such a term that states it has to be printed in some special way to count as printed? If the game defines it that way I'm all aboard. If it isn't defined I will keep defining it as the more common meaning of printed.

Do you have letters printed on an upgrade or stat card? Do these letters constitute an action in the game? Is the model with the upgrade attached to it the leader of your crew? I would say Yes, Yes, No. The above are the prerequisites for copying as per the doppleganger's ability. Does the doppleganger's ability say it must be usable by the model she borrows it from? No, nowhere that I have seen. Does it say that the action cannot be one that a leader can use? No, it says the model where the action is printed cannot be your leader.

I can also read, I also see that the action is given to Lucius so that he can do it, the Emmissary can't. None of that has any bearing whatsoever on the doppleganger's ability. The rules forum is for straightening unclear rules if I understand it correctly. You are asked in the forum rules to back your position and reasoning with references from the actual rules. I have gathered that several people are of the opinion that this interaction is an oversight but I have yet to see a single person quote the rules text that makes this action illegal. 

I am fully prepared to accept your reasoning if you give me a written rule that contradicts my reasoning. Please quote and give me a page reference to the section of the rulebook or the cards that have you saying that the action cannot be mentioned in the context of an ability. 

I'm not trying to be unreasonable I just ask that you actually give me an argument based on rules text and not your feelings. There are tons of interactions that are counter-intuitive but work because this game is predominantly RAW. RAW is good up to a point since it is less bendy than RAI. We rarely know the intentions of the designers.

You're spot on with the trap since they can copy that action.

Changelings can't however copy the pathfinders attack actions since they both mention "clockwork trap" which is mentioning a model by name and making them unable to copy it at all.

It doesn't copy an action the model has or can make, it copies something printed on a card. The emmissarys upgrade doesn't even say that the action is considered printed on Lucius, just that he can take it.

Please read the dopplegangers action again. It doesn't copy an ability usable by the model. It copies an ability printed on the card. Nowhere does it say anything about it being usable. Printed means that there is text on the card, nothing else. The emmissarys ability could read "this model sure doesn't get to take this action under no circumstances" and if that action was printed you could copy it.

As already stated (or because the forum jumbles the order in these threads) engagement is NOT a requirement for making melee attacks, just for disengaging strikes and randomizing when shooting. Only range and LoS is required for melee attacks.

Yup. "Target enemy..."

You are able to read which action it is because it is printed on the card right? Or do you have another upgrade that says "attach this upgrade to your leader" where the actual action is not printed on the Emmissary's card but on a separate upgrade attached to Lucius?

The doppleganger's Mimic action doesn't say the action needs to be available to the model being copied, just that it needs to be printed on a non-leader card.

I can get people arguing intent but you're gonna have to work hard to convince me the action isn't physically printed on the card.

Edited for smiley face. Please don't read aggression into this.

The otter of truth has spoken  

Love it, will try! Glass cannon galore lists are always fun for everyone