Kriltic

Thanks for the quick reply :-) certainly sounds an okay strategy.

I was wondering if someone would be able to tell me what Yan Lo's personal Scheme is as I dont have the book with the 10T models. Plus it would be nice to use a different Scheme from the usual suspects I take with my Resurrectionist masters, assuming his is worth taking. Thanks.

Where's the 'Like' button? We really need a 'Like' button because this totally made me chuckle XD

Im not sure how you got a damage dealing Belle from a Doxy? She's just a dead show girl. I'm pretty sure generic Show Girls (Performers) are not massive killing machines but just debuffers which is what a Doxy is, is she not?

The slightly more drastic change on Mortimer was from the same kinds of comments which say his ability to dig up corpses isnt that useful/reliable unless you commit the cards. The other was of how slow he is,these changes help level out these without completely changing him. The problem for Dead Doxy's is why bother if a Belle does it better? Making her a better tarpit means she isn't competing against a Belle, infact they would work very well together under the changes. Also making her a good/annoying tarpit helps make sure she isnt competing with lots of other models Most people feel a Punk Zombie is too fragile, Im attempting to encourage people to buy them not just summon them. Two wounds may help do this. Crooligans, Im attempting to make them the real objective grabbers/holders for the ressers so either I failed or its not what people expect from them so since it was a first draft (and I dont own a card) Ill try to alter them accordingly with peoples suggestions. As for the nurse reread what I put, I specifically stated you cannot use it on a model under the effects of Massive Does. As for the others, Ill see what other people say then in the next day or two come up with hopefully the final sort of draft.

Right, rather than rewrite cards I've still kept with the trying to tweak the current things but perhaps this is more what people were looking for. Totems Grave Spirit, increase to 2SS Lost Love, increase to 3SS Copycat Killer, increase Cb for .50 Flintlock to 4, ignore 'suffers 1 wound and' under .50 Flintlock, remove :masks from Mistaken Identity and reduce CC to 10 then add 'Upon switching models make one .50 Flintlock strike with the Gunfighter rule. Vulture, Reduce to 1 SS, Eyes and Ears only reduces CA by 2 then add 'When Nicodem uses Arise or Bolster Undead, this model will also immediately use the same action (for free) but with half the normal range of the action. Minions Flesh Construct, reduce by 1 SS, add Regeneration 1 Mortimer, reduce by 1SS, Exhume ignore 'Flip a fate card... If the card is a :crows ' add trigger '( :crows )You're a big one [Exhume] Two corpses may be placed instead of one. Change 'Make all my own friends' to a (2), add (0) 'Yes Sir?' Charge directly towards a friendly Nicodem, no stikes are made should this bring Mortimer in melee range of Nicodem. Add to Fresh Meat, this also affects Neutral or friendly Mindless Zombies. Rafkin, reduce by 1 SS Nurse, add (0) Link, add 'Assistant 'Each time a friendly McMourning moves or pushes, this model may move towards McMourning. add 'All better now' Rng6" CC12 Rst- Remove all Counters and effects currently on target. This can not be used on the same model under the effects of 'Massive Dose'. add 'First Aid' CC13 Rst - Rng 2" 'Target performs a healing flip.' Dead Doxy, reduce by 1 SS, change 'halves wounds' to 'inflicts 2 wounds', add Hard to Kill Rogue Necromancy, reduce by 2 SS Punk Zombie, increase WD to 8 The Hanged, add (+1) Nimble Guild Autopsies, increase Cb by 1, increase WD by 2, remove rule which prevents them dropping a corpse counter Crooligans, reduce by 1 SS, add +1 WD, +1 Df, add (+1) Reckless

See these kinds of changes were what I was looking for! As you pointed out mine are much smaller ones but mostly because I was hoping to avoid rewriting a complete cards stats etc but simply adjust them for minimal fuss/risk factor. By the way great job and idea Kadeton, I love it! I may try another go with my list and take both yours and CRC's changes to make minor tweaks to things and see what people think. Ill attempt to add the Dead Rider and Cooligans into the list too.

Point taken about simply altering costs being a little dull so ive try to change that a little. Are these changes a little more like what you were hoping for?

Dont forget I added a rule which meant for each Rotten Belle you take, it increases the pool by 1 SS if you take another model with the Belle characteristic. So the 3 Rotten Belles each increase the pool by one as that list had 3 other Belles in it (2 Dead Doxies and Madam Sybelle). I never claimed to be perfect and get it right in the first go, thus why I've asked others (and changed bits when I can). ---------- Post added at 11:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ---------- How about the new list? Its slightly different than the one on the first page, does this help give some synergy between Seamus and Copycat? Totems Grave Spirit, increase to 2SS Lost Love, increase to 3SS Copycat Killer, reduce to 1SS, increase Cb for .50 Flintlock to 4, remove mask from Mistaken Identity and reduce CC to 10 and add 'Upon switching models make one .50 Flintlock strike with the Gunfighter rule. ignore 'suffers 1 wound and' under .50 Flintlock. Vulture, Eyes and Ears only reduces CA by 2 and add 'When Nicodem uses Arise or Bolster Undead, this model will immediatly also use the same action (for free) but with half the normal range. Minions Flesh Construct, reduce by 1 SS, add Regeneration 1 Mortimer, reduce by 1SS Rafkin, reduce by 1 SS Nurse, reduce by 1 SS, add 'All better now' Rng6" CC12 Rst- Remove all Counters and effects currently on target. This can not be used on the same model under the effects of 'Massive Dose'. Dead Doxy, reduce by 1 SS, change 'halves wounds' to 'inflicts 2 wounds' Rogue Necromancy, reduce by 2 SS Rotten Belle, increase by 1 SS, add 'Always together: Increase SS starting pool by 1 when this model and another model with the 'Belle' characteristic are purchased in the same crew. This second model may not use Always together to increase the pool further. Punk Zombie, increase WD to 8 The Hanged, add (+1) Nimble Guild Autopsies, increase Cb by 1, increase WD by 2, remove rule which prevents them dropping a corpse counter Again as I dont really know about the Dead Rider or Crooligans I cant do much with them

Yes but as I've just shown, the exact same list is unaffected by the change due to the +1 SS pool it grants when taken in pairs. If you dropped the Dead Doxies in either case you would still have 10SS to spend on other things, assuming you wanted a full pool. A Zombie Chihuahua is only available to McMourning and he simply carves it up anyway, so he has a choice of a few cheap body parts of the Grave Spirit attached to something. If you had Nicodem and could take 2 1SS models and turn that into a Flesh Construct or some other big nasty then most people would. Even without corpses I would think having Nicodem attempt a casting of Rigor Mortis from halfway across the board, or at almost any point on the board is worth considering not using the Grave Spirit, even if its only cast with Ca5.

I forgot about the Guild Autopsy otherwise I would have added it. I always think small changes are needed rather than big ones as the large changes are much more prone to mistakes in my opinion. But this thread is all about what everyone thinks! I dont think those reasons justify keeping the Grave Spirit at 1SS, not every crew loads up on blasts and if you expect them to then suddenly you have to make a slightly more tactical decision which is always a good thing. The Vultures not dropping corpses is to stop people taking 2 as a cheap way to field 2 corpses, if people buy dogs for the same purpose why not buy even cheaper vultures? As for the Copycat I was merely going with as few changes per model as possible so dropping to 1SS seemed like the best option. Im not trying to increase costs of models to simply see others be used more but to have them balance more against the less used ones, i.e stop the weaker ones from not been used rather than simply dropping the costs of them all. The Belle for example is as everyone says amazing value for 4SS, but is 5SS the point which you think she is terrible value or would you still field them? Having 2 Belles at what amounts to -1SS to their combined cost helps keep them reasonable without being an auto-include. As for the Rogue Necromancy, if you field it at 7SS with the Grave Spirit at 2SS, you save 2SS over the current cost which seems fair. The RN on its own for 7SS doesn't seem an auto include or over powered but perhaps others see it differently. As for the Hanged I may be wrong, and if I am then I apologise, perhaps they are worth the 8SS, as I said these were just my opinions. I don't use any of the models you have in bold unless I can summon them, although once I get my crews sorted Rotten Belles will be seen in all but my Kirai crew since I think for 4SS they are a steal. The ones you pointed out are hard to justify (some more than others and with the obvious exception) over alternative choices. And all but my McMourning crew will make the strong but fluffy lists (as best I can), the only reason McMourning doesn't is I'm unsure what to take with him currently. And yes, the Guild have far too many good cheap minions, but why should everyone have the amazing cheap 4SS that should be more? Id rather everyone have minions who are priced fairly but I realise its hard to justify a Belle at 5SS without people assuming the other factions would have the same kind of changes as well. And no I dont think everyone should have 7SS models like the Twins, that's not what this post is about, if every faction was to have things changed then I imagine the Neverborn list would be a little bit longer than most. ---------- Post added at 09:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 PM ---------- Just to point out. The Rotten Belle change wouldn't be that big, assuming you field 2 you would pay 9SS instead of 8 which doesn't seem unreasonable does it? Plus most Molly and Seamus crews wouldn't see much change. (thanks to the 'Always together bit I would add). The normal brackets is current cost and the square bracket is modified cost. Seamus (8 pool) [8 pool] Grave Spirit (1) [2] Madame Sybelle (6) [7] 3 Rotten Belles (12) [15] 2 Dead Doxies (10) [8] ---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 PM ---------- Also Ill either edit the original list (and note which items have been added/removed) or create a new list depending on other peoples suggestions, i.e. either drop some changes or add some.

Crooligans are not something Im familiar with so I don't know how well they do on the table. As a result I didn't want to add/remove anything. The same is true of the Dead Rider. If you consider something a really good value for their points (and so usually you field them a lot) then it usually means one of two things, 1) they are under priced and so there's no reason not to take them or 2) The alternatives are not as well costed or do not perform the task as well. Would you still consider the models with suggested cost increases still great value or just okay? Would you still take auto take them or would you be more inclined to look at the other possibilities now? If you think they are just okay and that you would look at other things that you wouldn't normally take then clearly my point is working. (Also I forgot about the Rogue Necromancy and Jaakuna so I've now added them.) ---------- Post added at 07:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 PM ---------- Just to explain my thoughts on some of the costs etc. Totems Grave Spirit -- Clearly at 1SS hes a no brainer for most people/masters and is amazing value. At 2 SS I dont feel that hes too expensive but I think its a fairer cost and it gives some of the other Totems a chance to be used instead. Lost Love -- Another amazing choice and why wouldn't you take him for Kirai?! At 3SS hes a little fairer and helps reduce her SS pool thus helping to create a little more balance with her and her crew. Copycat Killer -- Reducing his cost would perhaps give him a chance to appear in a list, especially as a 1 SS .50 Flintock Vulture -- Dropping cost helps them compete with the Grave Spirit to an extent, reducing the CA modifier helps let Nicodem attempt to actually use them for the purpose they were supposed to be used for and not dropping corpses stops people buying 2 to simply get 2 dirt cheap corpses (excuse the pun!) Minions Flesh Construct -- Reducing the cost hopefully may see one occasionally appearing in crew rather than just as something to summon. Mortimer + Rafkin -- Most people feel these are very situational models due to cost, reducing the cost may see people take them in more lists due to a higher cost/reliabilty ratio. Nurse -- I've only seen people mention Nurses to speed up the Manifesting requirements. Dead Doxy -- Simple case of many players feel they are a little over costed. Rogue Necromancy -- I think only Molly really hires these because she has few other options, most people feel its too expensive considering how fragile it is. Making it simply harder to hit or increasing its wounds would only reward those that summon it even more, reducing its cost rewards those that take it to begin with. Rotten Belle -- I think almost every Resser crew (bar Kirai's) love this model, everyone can see she is amazingly valuable and cheap. However I think 5 might be punishing Seamus a bit too much as he loves using Belles whereas other masters like 1 or 2. Thus I thought giving them a Guild Hound like rule might help to some extent so they dont end up too far the other way and not see much use. Punk Zombie -- People wanted a little more survivability and although 2 wounds isn't much, it certainly helps I think.

Well since I started a thread for the Masters I thought I may as well see what people think of our minions/totems/henchmen etc. It's the same principle as before, what changes would you make to balance out the masses? I.e. to make the rarer models become a little more popular and the clearly amazing models pay that little bit more so they don't overshadow the rest of the gang, or to balance them all somewhat haha Just to point out before someone comes out with it yet again, no I'm not trolling, no I'm not saying Resurrectionist minions are terrible and no I'm not saying Resurrectionist's aren't competitive so please go away if thats all you have to say. Yes this is a semi serious thread as in I'd like the suggestions to be sensible(ish) in the sense that they are plausible, despite this been a wishlist like topic. But it is also meant as a bit of fun to see what people think of our minions! So lets make it that. So, without further a do, what changes would you like to see? ---------- Post added at 05:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:51 PM ---------- I don't have a massive amount of experience with all the minions so I can't comment on everything and one or two suggestions might not be perfect so feel free to post your own suggestions or point out changes you would make to my list. If you wish to know why I've put something just ask and I'll try to explain. Totems Grave Spirit, increase to 2SS Lost Love, increase to 3SS Copycat Killer, reduce to 1SSIncrease Cb for .50 Flintlock to 4, remove mask from Mistaken Identity add 'Upon switching models make one .50 Flintlock strike with the Gunfighter rule., ignore 'suffers 1 wound and' under .50 Flintlock. Vulture, reduce to 1SS, Eyes and Ears only reduces CA by 2, add Too small: This model drops no corpse counter upon dying. Minions Flesh Construct, reduce by 1 SS Mortimer, reduce by 1SS Rafkin, reduce by 1 SS Nurse, reduce by 1 SS Dead Doxy, reduce by 1 SS Rogue Necromancy, reduce by 2 SS Rotten Belle, increase by 1 SS, add 'Always together: Increase SS starting pool by 1 when this model and another model with the 'Belle' characteristic are purchased in the same crew. This second model may not use Always together to increase the pool further. Punk Zombie, increase WD to 8 The Hanged, add (+1) Nimble The Drowned, Madame Sybelle and Jaakuna entries removed.

One thing I was going to say is we don't want Seamus and McMourning having too many similarities (i.e the ability to heal quickly, especially considering he will probably take less damage per hit). I think the few minor changes help him just enough to be a better master who is not mostly a friendly gaming kinda guy.

I agree McMourning is good and I don't personally think Live for Pain would be OP if you were able to cast it 3 times a turn however if others disagree I would be happy to have the CC raised if people think this would be more balanced.

The issue is striking a balance between the original concept/fluff and what works and is competitive now. Perhaps altering the masters to become a bit more like what the vast majority of new players perceive Seamus and Nicodem isn't a bad thing, it certainly wouldn't hurt if it did (assuming a balance was made). The counter to saying Live for Pain would be too powerful is to say you need a 7 minimum for it to work plus you need to cheat first whereas using Seamus' normal melee attack only has the limit of beating the defenders total, and you may not have to cheat first, plus its trigger is very good. If you still think this is too good raise the CC to say a 17 so a 10 is needed and therefore you need to be a little more careful with casting it. (added to previous post part way up the page)

It doesn't make a huge amount of sense but it help strengthens his crew a bit more while making the action a little more viable. Plus anything that stops an avatar been an auto-include is always a good thing. To me an avatar should be something that you think about and only add it if it seems like it'll be useful, not add it because it makes your master better. Good comparison between the Doctor and Live for Pain, thinking about it I totally agree and so Im in favour for not having it limited to once per turn. If that makes Live for Pain broken then McMourning must be an OP master. I dont think giving Resurrectionists easy ways out of Crow dependency by adding someone who can dish them out is a good idea. Can you imagine getting things like the Crooked men's Paralyzed trigger off automatically each turn is balanced? I think reducing a masters dependency on Crows to some extent frees them up a bit for the minions. Another reason I keep mentioning the whole dropping a crow for Nicodem thing. Personally I would say drop the crow for McMourning and Seamus as well but I think its justified for them two and summoning.

If people are worried about Live for Pain been too powerful just up the casting value so its not as easy to get off (yes harder to resist too but so are many things) and/or limit it to once per turn?. Just to point out, why would you pay 2 SS for a single Corpse Counter when I could just buy a Canine Remain to run forward and die? It's more likely to do something useful before being killed and its another activation. I still think rather than trying to justify Mortimer in a list by making him alter Nicodems potential game style, simply tweaking Nicodem would be easier so he has the option to simply have more than one play style. Why not up Reanimator to an 18 of any suit? Suddenly hes on par with Kirai's ability to summon but needs corpses close by instead. If he wants to try a summon factory he can do but it becomes very resource intensive (I.e. you need both Rafkin and Mortimer plus 2-3 turns to create enough Zombies/corpses to Reanimate). Plus this wouldn't alter his current play style much unless you built a crew to do so. ---------- Post added at 06:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:01 PM ---------- What about these changes then? Are they simple but effective enough to make most people happy? Kirai None McMourning None Nicodem Remove second crow from Reanimator and up CC to 18 Increase SS Cache to 5 Seamus Increase SS Cache to 4 Alter Trail of Fears to effect all models Remove the gun icon from Live for Pain, up CC to 17

When I first started playing I got the impression that Nicodem was a summoner who could also buff. He seems to be a master who buffs and uses Rigor Mortis or Decay on things and occasionally summons, now Yan Lo has come out this isn't so unique to Nicodem. Now, pretty much the only unique thing about him that no one else can do if provide a large area buff for undead models. Everything else he can do others seem to be better at it and so he gets left out of most competitive games which doesn't seem right to me. If you allowed him to summon better, it means he now lives up to image most people instinctively see when they see his model/rules or read about him but also it means he now stands out a little more as a master. The suggestions I made for Nicodem only shift his (1) actions a little more to using Reanimator rather than Rigor Mortis or Decay all the time. It certainly seems like he would be more interesting this way, at least in my eyes.

What he means is... If hes cheating the flip hes going to succeed otherwise he wouldnt cheat the flip, i.e. His odds of passing are 100% when involving cheating. The 46% is fine when saying flipping/to succeed but not to say flip/cheat, it doesnt sound different at first glance but when you think about it the difference is rather large.

Not really, there's a big difference between a master or two needing to be buffed a little and saying the whole faction is weak. My point was Nicodem himself shouldn't be mobile as a master but if he was able to summon easier, his crew could help and be more mobile as a form of compensation i.e he can summon a few faster minions when needed. ---------- Post added at 07:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 PM ---------- As for the list, thats not possible any more as you can only scavenge scrap (unless I missed the corpse part), what I was suggesting is a toned down version of that. Also making sure it is Nicodem himself having to cast a spell for more corpses and discarding cards to do so (along with say a once per turn cap and specific suit) reduces his ability to spam what you suggested. I never claimed my ideas to be perfect it was just a suggestion as to possible solutions, and why I asked people to post what changes they would make.

He already has a crow in his Ca so I suggested dropping the second crow he needs for Animator. I was thinking of the whole creating corpse counters as a (1) action thats once per turn and needs a 10 of crows or higher to cast so its not too over powering.

You kind of proved my point that some of the masters need help if the two masters you would default to are the two masters that need no real tweaks. As for the Nicodem generating counters I suggested it as a possibility hoping others would could up with improved/refined ways to keep it balanced.

Gruesome don't worry I didn't see it as arguing, you merely posted what you thought were fair changes which is what the whole thread was about after all! CRC, I think some masters need help so they are just as appealing to all players (including competitive players) and can fight most other masters without starting off on a back foot i.e Seamus struggles vs more and more crews due an increasing number of models that are Immune to Influence and the proportion of living models decreases. Tweaking him a little so he can still do ok vs these kinds of crews seems fairly reasonable. Nicodem has a similar weakness which a few minor tweaks means he can still fight against non-living crews or still do ok in highly mobile Strategies. Ravenborne, I'm not saying make each master identical and good at everything, but more give them a chance to at least do ok at different things. I.e level the playing field, so have the choice of 2-3 masters to deal with most strategies/enemy masters etc rather than just the one in many cases. I realize my suggestions are not perfect, it was supposed to be a starting point and add/remove/alter points depending on what things people thought would help. As I said its meant as a bit of fun to see what people would do given the chance.

When did I say Ressurectionists are underpowered? And sorry but not all masters are equal, thus why I created this thread. Why has a post thats supposed to generate a bit of fun ended up like this?