Astrella

On 10/17/2019 at 12:30 AM, solkan said:

It's Lichecraft.   

More seriously, it's a side effect of the magic that they use.  The previous occupant of the Judge position wore a mask because of the state his face was in.  And the effect was demonstrated to be strong enough that some death marshals are vulnerable to necromantic control (see the last Lady Justice vs. Nicodem encounter).

Death Marshal start out living.  They end up somewhat undead.

Yeah but it's just weird that the recruiter who has the same flaming skull thing going on isn't undead. But I suppose The Judge isn't either, so maybe regular Marshalls are just undead for gameplay reasons?

So I noticed that in ME3 Death Marshalls are undead, but recruiters even though they are death marshalls themselves are living? This seems like a bit of an odd inconsistency.

Meh, sure this might get some models taken more but it doesn't fix more fundamental issues with design of those models. (Also I feel mimicking certain changes in Guild Ball mercenary might be a rule we have to phase out.) Also I'm sad the symmetry between the four riders is now gone, feel that could have been handled more elegantly.

2 hours ago, Kaptain_Konrad said:

I used overwatch as a single example to support that other games have gone through the same situation. I'm not defending the game from not including gay characters, I'm defending people trying to change what writers write. We don't have full control, but companies do tend to pander to people who spout enough, and there is where I have an issue.

I'm just going to head out and hopefully let this die out. I wish you all a good day.

But, that's what people always do about every topic. Like, people communicate likes and dislikes to content creators. If I say "I'd like to see more stories features Von Schill" would you think that's me trying to dictate what the writers write to? Would you be calling me out on it?

Colette is gay? When was that revealed?

49 minutes ago, Kaptain_Konrad said:

Why do we need to know our models sexual preference? The only time I see it mattering is if they have themed abilities that are given rerference to it, and on top of that, generally it's just like, "alluring gaze", which is already generic.

Here's the potential problem, if a character is made gay for the sake of adding a gay character, no matter how well written, they will always be known as a character added because people complained. That will become that models legacy,  because it will be seen as forced on to the designers instead of natural. Even if it is a natural design, the fact that people constantly bring this up in games (overwatch), they will still be labeled "that character".

I'm in the realm of, these character shoot, stab, maul each other in a game, why do they even need a sexuality. What players do in their own time I don't care, go screw a dude, gal, rose bush, car, radio, whatever,  but don't bring these into games about scheming and murdering. Now if it was a story telling game where relationships matter, then it can be brought up.

The relationships in the game do have impact though. Look at say Kirai / Francis, that has had quite a bit of story impact. People just considering straight relationships to be the default so they don't notice them.

I'm not even seeing the issue really, does this errata prevent you from using the Mechanical Rider? It's still a fine model.

It's definitely not unique to Gremlins, and they are working on it. But it is part of the reason why I'm not super excited about even more new models coming out considering there's still quite a few that are underwhelming. I'd honestly be interested in some actual statistics on how often certain models get taken, and I'm not sure if those are available since most tournaments don't seem to track lists.

4 hours ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Or here's another idea. If Wyrd insists on "nurfing" models, then they should offer a refund to those customers that have bought those models they decided to "nurf". That would be a good gesture to their customers.

Miniature games do balance changes; heck basically every game does. That's a given assumption with a game that's "alive". (Besides, you pay for models, not rules. You still own the exact same thing you purchased, is not like Aaron came up to your house and smashed your mechanical rider, who by the way is still fine power level wise.)

6 hours ago, Rosskov said:

In my opinion the stuffed piglets are a 2.5 stone model. They have different roles from a bayou gremlin but can't really compete with them at 3 stones. 

I've always wondered a bit if replacing say stones with scrip and doubling all the costs (and letting you buy soulstones for your pool with 2 scrip then) would solve some of the issues by allowing for more granularity in costs.

Why do you think we wouldn't want LGBT characters to be well written as well? Isn't that like a default assumption for any character? Like, I don't want token characters either. I mostly just got annoyed by the throwback against even the idea of inclusion.

Maybe you can't blame gamers as a whole, but how the community responds is definitely telling. I think as good people we have an obligation to call out harassment whenever we see it; and not just dismiss at a "they're just trolls, etc..." that just makes gaming feel an unsafe space, especially for more vulnerable people.

Nowhere has Dogmantra said anything can't be created, there's a difference between can and should.

And I think it's a bit ironic considering LGBT+ media has a wide history of being censored.

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I did like the Nellie story in Ripples of Fate a lot, with the whole escorting Fiona and such, definitely got a dapper lady-loving vibe from it.

10 hours ago, Wolfpact said:

Biig thread, but has anyone mentioned Emeline Bellerose yet? She's very explicitly lesbian, or at least bisexual - and she's obviously the model for new alt-Sybelle.

She's been mentioned before; I'd honestly like some more info about her. I hadn't heard of her cause I don't own any of the RPG books.

Oh is Eden the one with the post-apocalyptic Penguins?

A shorta Shadowrun: Dragonfall or even turn based-y like X-com could work. Ooh, or mass effect / dragon age like.

@Pyrflamme:

's all good stuff you posted.

 

59 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

First of all, thank you for your input and taking part in this conversation, Astrella. Much appreciated!  

And now, on what was quoted. I don't know whether it was a coincidence or not but one of the main points of contention leading to that debacle you mention was that there never was a situation where you had a box of three Minions with one being male and two being female. They were either all women (in case the Minion was defined by being a woman like Oiran or Belles or whatever) or they were all men or they were two men and one woman.

Now there are several boxes with two women and one man in them (off the top of my head, Sanctioned Spellcasters, Wokou Raiders, Bandidos, Autumn Knights, Shieldbearers, and probably more that I'm just not remembering at the moment). So, whether that was due to feedback or just random chance, change can happen.

Oh, thank you!

And yes, definitely that's been a good thing. New Monster Hunter that got spoiled a bit ago looks really cool too. And I think we all benefit from the game having a bunch of assorted characters.

Most trans people (myself included) don't expect transition to magically fix all problems, it's a specific solution to a specific problem that sadly comes with a lot of misunderstanding and discrimination for a lot of us, which is often the reason for the unhappiness. Discrimination leads to like, losing family, friends, job, being hurt, etc... being a minority by itself comes with a lot of stress which causes depression and other mental health issues. And well, dysphoria is still a thing on top of that. Transitioning has had a good impact on my overall well-being though, I no longer feel like the detached zombie I was years and years ago. 

Also I actually find the whole overall meaningless of existence pretty empowering; it means that we can give our own meaning and shape to it. What I do and what I value matters because I chose so, not because existence makes it matter or gives it purpose.

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For the other thing; the problem is that the societal standard is still that people are assumed to be straight unless otherwise proven. Also characters are written, they're not just random people on the street, and yes, technically a bunch of characters could not be straight it's unlikely to be the case. Like, say with the honeypot customers example, sure they could all be bi, but we just never happen to see them involved with men or any proof that they are? Like doesn't that feel like an easy way out?

My main issue in this thread anyway has mostly been the people who seem to be against even the idea that there could be lgbt characters in Malifaux.

1 hour ago, iamfanboy said:

Note that my wife is sleeping right next to me and my reaction to homosexuality is, "Well, if it's important to you than fine, whatever" so I've got no real dog in this fight to demand 'representation'. (If I'm being 100% honest, I find transgender folks as boorish as anyone else who thinks one dramatic change will suddenly inflict happiness upon them and fix all that is wrong with their lives, but it does me no personal harm so they're free to do whatever they want.)

I mean, there's a perfectly fine medical basis for it; and other treatments would dream to be as successful as transitioning is in alleviating dysphoria.

No-one is saying it's the end of the world; but as you can see in this thread there's people who have an issue with lgbt characters even being included in the setting. And the historical accuracy argument is a bit of a faux one, considering the setting already diverts heavily in that regard; not to mention Malifaux itself is the outback, where different rules and morals from earth apply. E.g. the Guild seems to feature women in high military ranks quite often, contrary to contemporary Earth.

And "it's the internet" is a pretty weak argument and I don't see how ableism is related to memes. *shrug*

8 minutes ago, goat90 said:

The inverse can be said, having a Straight couple of characters has no bad effects on LGBT. With what you're saying though. How does one add a LGBT character without it being explicitly in your face? Why cant a character be a character? A game doesn't have to include every bit of current social nuances, when given the time period its mirroring it would of been a taboo and still frowned on (though that in and of its self would make an interesting dynamic). Just let the damned characters develop, I for one dont tie any sort of sexuality to the character. Though Colette and Cassandras use of woman sexuality is pretty good and fits within the time period of what I would think a woman would have to do to succeed in a time period dominated by men 

I mean, did you think Francis / Kirai was in your face? I don't see why it would have been any more in your face if it had been Francene / Kirai.

The thing is sexuality has already had big influence, Francis and Kirai's romance has had quite significant story impact by itself. I'm not suggestion Wyrd turn their fluff into a romance novel.

25 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

A perceived absence of LGBT characters does not mean exclusion of that sexual orientation or worse; and this extends to other traits, cultures, ideas etc. Before Book 4 did anyone think that because Sandeep and his crew hadn't yet been released that there was an issue with Wyrd having a diverse representation of cultures?

If/when Wyrd releases a LGBT character it should be because they decided to write a LGBT character.

To address the above comment about some parts of the Wyrd community being hostile:

Some of the hostility may be because some people believe a miniature company and it's products shouldn't be used for the promotion LGBT. Being LGBT doesn't make an individual special, not that anyone said that, but when members of the community try and argue for inclusion of that single character trait it is off putting. It makes it appear that LGBT is a special distinction that should always be acknowledged, above all character traits, otherwise you are against it and should be flogged.*

*Dumb humor.  

So why do straight characters just get to be characters, but lgbt characters don't? And please, acknowledging that lgbt characters exist is hardly promotion. You are completely misrepresenting people's positions, and if I might add, sounding quite similar to bigots that are all "don't let kids know gay people exist cause they icky".

There being a couple LGBT characters in Malifaux has literally no bad effects on straight / cis people, and positive ones for lgbt people.

LGBT characters asking for inclusion is always seen as sexual.

3 hours ago, FinalForm said:

Wow, you are connecting points that are clearly not connected.
Both Sonnia and Sam are decent (in some way) workers of the guild. They work hard and have very little time to do anything with their personal space. Sonnia is kinda exalted character with allmighty godlike being locked inside her, she is also a hardworker and just self-contained a little bit. Sam is just a loyal operative and I'm sure that he was scared a little of actual Sonnia (before Cherufe was removed). Also there are so many warm notes in their talks during "ambush"(Rising powers) and thoughts of Sam in Latigo and The Inferno.
I would say that Sam loves Sonnia but their grim work Sonnias temper and disastrous confluence of circumstances will never let them be together. I hope that 5th book(with Sonnia on the cover) will focus their connection a little bit more)
-fanboy mod off-

Besides anything else I want to focus all pro-LGBTQ guys here on fact that there are almost no sexuality in the entire story for main characters(hetero or anything else). Such content will only make the story less intense. As I see it sexuality and sexual orientaition of characters are one of the weakest points in character development for decades( just look at all big guys like Marvel failing every time they introduce another love-story). There must be strong reason to focus on such relations between characters ( and I see why Kirai has such a cool story- because it's not like "She is straight and in love with a guy"). I don't mind if any character will be a gay person if only there is some actual story behind it and the whole plot will be depended on it.

P.S. There is a big problem in my country and in most Muslim countries I think: presenting gay character say on demo games may be a felony or just haram, causing legal issues and decreasing sales in the entire country.

Claiming inclusion of gay character is inherently sexual is a common misconception. And why do gay characters always have to have a proper story reason for being gay, why can't a gay character just be gay? Straight characters are just straight all the time. And there being no straightness for the main characters is nonsense, the fluff itself likes to draw attention to how attractive a lot of the female characters are in ways that are definitely aimed at straight audiences. And let's see,

Guild: Implied relationship between Lady Justice and the Judge, McCabe had a girlfriend
Ressers: Nicodem in Rising Powers was lecherous over Kirai, Seamus and his belles, Kirai and Francis
Arcanists: Marcus and Miranda, Mei Feng and English Ivan in Shifting Loyalties, Colette and the whole showgirl / theater crew and how all the clients fall over themselves
Neverborn: I suppose Lilith not but there are seduce-y Nephilim, Lynch's Honeypot sex workers
Outcasts: Leveticus and Alyce + the Waifs
Gremlins: Ophelia and Wong being all charming towards her, Ophelia being seen as attractive herself, Trixiebelle!
Ten Thunders: Asami's dad wanting her to find a husband, her herself daydreaming about a husband and a family.

And that's Masters and associated characters, there's tons of mentions of wives and husbands for tons of major and minor characters. And that's the point, straight sexuality isn't even seen as sexuality it just is.

And honestly, like, Wyrd shouldn't bend over to the fact that some places might have shitty discriminatory attitudes or policies. Cause then they'd have to reduce a lot of their female characters too.

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also it's not always about wnating to play a LGBT character, it's just nice to actually see people like you in the universe, it makes it feel more real. Like, it's easy if you're a man cause there's always gonna be characters like you.

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Also it's this annoying hostility towards inclusion that parts of the Wyrd community always seem to have that just puts me (and other people) off from investing in the game right now. I know the previous big debacle around sexism gave Wyrd a bad reputation already. (And that's not cause Wyrd themselves are big meanies persay, but at least in the case I mentioned their response to what happened was lackluster)

On 7/6/2017 at 7:11 AM, Kadeton said:

For what it's worth, the representations of Tara and Karina in The Dead Man's Ball (from Shifting Loyalties) were based on my aunt and her partner who had been a couple since the 1960s - they were the best example I could think of for two women who had spent (in T & K's case, literally) eternity together.

I loved their interactions, thank you! Also that's adorable.