Azahul

5 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One thing I found in practice with my Molly vs Schill is that the main model that wanted to ignore my minus flips was Schill himself... So the ability ended up a bit clunky in that regard.

Of course Molly just single-activationed Arik start of turn 2 while Archie tied up the whole backline, so maybe it'd be different in a more usual-case game.

You aren't wrong that it's clunky. He's also the only model he can't hand focus out to! But it's still useful on occasion. Enabling an Engineer to shoot Jaakuna in Concealment and Combat came up.

I am surprised the Schill player was down so many cards start of Turn 2. I hope they got a good Hannah activation out of it!

So to my mind, Schill2's advantages are:

-Ruthless

-Marker removal

-Counters negative flips (Serene Countenance, Concealment, etc.)

-AOE damage on his melee (massively improves his damage output when it comes up)

-2" melee for locking down enemy models

-Fewer TNs to meet, more emphasis on opposed duels. This makes him better with Yannic and two Engineers I feel, since the Severes you accrue are better used on Min 3 attacks than hitting Load Up TNs

-The ability to do "more" in a turn. You get to use each upgrade he equips twice before it gets completely removed, and he can both attack and get an upgrade for a single AP. I put "more" in quotation marks though because he can't focus his AP in on movement/scoring as well as Schill1. It feels like he lets you spread your attention better instead.

Personally I usually play Freikorps on brawlier pools rather than as my default crew, so for me Schill2 is actually a more typical pick. I don't play my Freikorps if the pool requires a lot of AP to score, and being able to funnel AP into scoring is Schill1's biggest advantage over 2 (that and being tankier). So unless I am concerned about my opponent killing Schill and want more durability, I actually lean more towards Schill2 these days.

I imagine it's a different story though for those who use Freikorps as their all-rounder crew into every pool. Once you start playing them in Symbols or Breakthrough pools Schill1 undoubtedly leaps ahead.

Honestly at this point my most desired core rules errata is to clean up the summon rules. Too many different effects with different durations at this point, and scattering them across both core rules and Gaining Ground documents is needlessly convoluted.

Just consolidating it all down to "summoned models are ignored for friendly strategies" would be an improvement. It would mean we don't have the current weird loophole where summons can do Leylines but are locked out of the other strats entirely. Consistency would be a big improvement. 

It would make summons better for schemes, which could potentially be an issue. They could go further if that is the case and just say "summoned models are ignored for strategies and schemes". It would remove the vulnerability summoned models represent to allow enemies to score, but take them out of the scoring equation entirely. Not necessarily elegant but so much easier to track than the current mess.

I would hope the latter option isn't necessary, since it reduces summons to nearly pure attrition models (they are able to Interact though, so can still drop scheme markers at least). But still preferable to the current mess.

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

To me rules should generally be based on rules, not power level concerns. There's errata to handle power level issues.

Oh I wasn't expressing power level concerns. It feels like a lot but I prefer to reserve judgement until I play with/against something at minimum.

33 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Which goes back to what I said previously- I think if Wyrd tries to FAQ this by some trickery with choosing or targeting, it seems likely that they'll break another mechanic in the process.

So I guess we're about to find out if this is what was needed to catapult Hamelin1 into being a top tier Master? 

Outside of the absurd telegraphed shenanigans I think it's mainly a big lift in his tempo game. Getting a full Rat King activation on the turn the rats are summoned rather than a full turn later is markedly harder to disrupt. And it means his "Rats gain focus" trigger is finally relevant again...

9 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Seems odd to just allow all effects to transfer instead of restricting to effects that have "target" or "choose" in the text; there is at least room to say those targeted/chose a model. Really doesn't make sense for applying it to effects of actions that do not target, such as Area Effects. 

That interpretation goes on to ignore the lasting part and just implies that all effects are "Lasting Effects". RAW, Auras are the only Area Effect defined as a Lasting Effect. I think that kind of flies in the face of allowing pulse effects to transfer during replacement.

Edit: Pulses even say they have no game effect once resolved. Not really sure how one argues a Pulse effect is lasting.

No one is arguing pulse effects are lasting. Replaces transfer all effects, not just lasting ones. The term "lasting effect" only comes up as part of a non-exhaustive list of all the different kinds of effect that transfer over.

3 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Effects that target/chose a model are the only ones transferred. Unclean influence effect doesn’t target/choose a model since it’s a pulse.

The counter argument I was given there was that "effects" never target models. I.e. Analyse Weakness transfers on a Replace, no one is in any doubt about that, but while the action "targets" the effect does not so... safest to just transfer all effects.

28 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

I wouldn’t consider the need of a marker, and subsequent opponent counter play, as being free in the same vein as Yan2. While giving Focus+1 on Misaki2’s Obey is fairly easy to achieve, it’s not guaranteed and sometimes needs additional AP to set up.

Or near Shang. But certainly, Yan Lo has it easier. Though Misaki can get her trigger built in when Obeying non-Keyword/enemy models, not to mention having her Obey suited.

She's not freewheeling around the map and getting free AP from cheap Minions though. 

3 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Of the Obeys that offer Focus+1 (Yan2, Misaki2, Ngaatoro), Yan2 is the only one who gets the suit for free. Probably one of the aspects that puts Yan2 just above his peers for efficiency. Pretty big not having to use a SS or card for the suit like the others, especially when getting 2-3 extra Focus for free every turn.

Misaki's is relatively free, is it not?

I do think my next big decision is whether or not I cut the Crooked Man from my Daw2 list. It's only had a couple of games but I haven't seen much from it yet. It keeps getting dramatically outpaced by the crew. But to be fair I do keep forgetting Shafted, so it's at least 50% my fault.

Please take pictures for those of us on the east coast

There really hasn't been much discussion on any other part of her kit. Though boy there has been a lot of discussion about that one part of her kit (and how to nerf it).

Maybe once they do there'll be some exploration of what else she can do? Currently the best role she plays for me is being such a bogeyman that my opponents inevitably tech for her, so when I reveal Tara1 I get to run off and score points ignoring whatever anti-kidnap tech they invested half their points into.

Tara's answer to card draw is unfortunately a little dependent on Time Warp and remembering where at least a few of your severes are in your deck. But that in itself can be a bit random (I've had games where my first 26 cards had just one Severe in them, so I had to grit my teeth and just hope the second half of my turn would go better without any control of what would succeed or what wouldn't).

My other answer to card draw is to summon Void Wretches and bury my opponent in Stutter Time duels and Glimpse the Void checks. There's no control or subtlety to this approach, but sometimes you just force your opponent to cheat a lot against Stat 4 attacks/TN 14 Wp duels, and their Stutter Time is as good as just about any other model in the crew. And then they will need to spend cards occasionally to remove those little roadblocks.

Gravity Well can be an interesting ability depending on the deployment/strategy. In Standard deployment for example it gives you so many options in where your models unbury it can be quite advantageous, particularly on Strategies like Break the Line where the opponent is going to be driving into your table half. On Symbols it's almost always advantageous, since your opponent will be spending much of the game trying to score near your deployment.

18 minutes ago, malyzubor said:

And do you, guys, really play him? Like at least once per 2-3 games with Viks? I can understand, what he might possibly be able to do, but there are usually just better models for any job he does in outcasts.

Yep, I play him. Probably more frequently than Taelor to be honest.

Rage Quit Wire I think did a two episode breakdown of all the originals and titles, but with the heavy disclaimer that they didn't have any experience with a good chunk of titles at time of recording so they're not necessarily all spot-on takes.

Von Schill's only competition for best Master in Outcasts is Tara, he doesn't need a min 3 gun 😄

To be fair, I like Maniacal's summation more than my own  That is a significant part of Bishop's value add. He's a 3 AP model who can cover 20" in a turn. For 1 point more than the Midnight Stalker you get a model who is comparably mobile (about 2" less movement overall, without the benefits of a Place effect, but only needs a friend instead of cards and gets his 3 AP without any board state requirements) but far more versatile in terms of what he can do in a game. Sometimes he piles on the damage, sometimes he massively Staggers and Slows a model and then heads off to do something else, or he gives you a neat pile of Pass Tokens to guarantee activation control/initiative on a critical turn, or whatever. The one thing he can't do is tank, so you have to be careful how you use him and correctly identify which mode of play he should adopt on a given turn to recoup the points you spent on him. In my experience that will frequently be scheming, but I'd be lying if I said I hadn't used him in the past as a control piece, a damage dealer, or an emergency distraction with Challenge so that my Viks could live for one more activation.

1 hour ago, KID55 said:

That was 4 days ago. If I talk about cost that doesn't means that I compare her to Mad Dog each time. For 17 SS I can take 3 Nekropunks that probably will be more profitable in current GG.

I'm not sure why it matters how many days it's been. My point was merely that if you have compare her to Mad Dog she has very similar weak points, but it's not really any harder to cover them relative to her cost.

On 6/9/2022 at 4:59 PM, KID55 said:

For fun play I take Alyce too. But on tournament I prefer Mad Dog over her. He can easy have a fast. He can ignore cover. He can ignore armour. He has blasts. He even can receive + on duel on low health. He cost more, but totally worth it. His range shorter but still enough.

24 minutes ago, KID55 said:

I didn't said a single word about Dog now)

 

Direct comparisons to Mad Dog have been made.

25 minutes ago, KID55 said:

He is not personal support for Dog. He is universal support for everyone. And Dog can play without him. Only Support that Dog really needed - 1 scheme Marker. Anyone in crew can place it. Or even with Parker Drawn their attention ability Dog can place it himself without spending actions. In a middle of the game there is a lot marker on table, thanks Drop it.

 

And the Brawler isn't personal support for Alyce. He's a reasonably tanky brawler who can generate Irreducible damage attacks from Leveticus as easily as he can Min 3 shots from Alyce. He brings condition removal which post-nerf Leveticus really does want. He gets you extra mobility on whichever model you have that needs it, and is a source of Stunned for the crew.

And Mad Dog absolutely needs another model to babysit him, otherwise he gets engaged rapidly begins to lose effectiveness.

28 minutes ago, KID55 said:

Only if you play on empty table I suppose. Tables that I usually play always have cover and very often have consealmant and severe terrain, near deployment.

 

Sure. I do too. What I was saying was that a benefit to Alyce fighting at close range is that Cover and Concealment become much easier to mitigate. If your opponent is in the teeth of your crew and you pull Alyce out of melee with a Brawler or a Scavenger and she activates and starts shooting at a model within 3" of her, odds are you've been able to arrange a totally clear line of sight.

4 minutes ago, KID55 said:

But I'm very sceptic to this option. Take 8SS model to make 9SS Henchman normal to play. Sound like meh. And his push work only in 2". So it means Alyce in close combat, that not very good or Brawler babysitting her and do nothing else, that also not good. But I'll try. Maybe I'm wrong.

And yet you keep talking about comparisons to Mad Dog, a 10 point model who needs some support to be anything but lacklustre. And the support most commonly taken for him? A 10 stone Emissary.

Personally I like Alyce playing up close. It means her Entropy aura is doing work, her durability is generating value, her Pit Traps are posing a problem for the opponent, and that Cover and Concealment aren't going to be an issue because there's no room for opponents to hide. And it's going to happen anyway, people want to get to and shut down Alyce. Might as well build your strategy around assuming at least the former will happen.

True, though the Brawler is a great pick for Leveticus as a Master and also synergises really well with Alyce, so it's not like you're bereft of ways to make her shine in Keyword. And buffs like making Alyce faster or making her gun better don't fix the issue.

Taking away her Pit Trap for Scrap Marker generation would make her worse OOK though I guess, if you want to go that route.

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That's because most of the time you're playing Parker (where Mad Dog is in keyword) or Hamelin (who has combos with pit traps)

Yeah, but Hamelin (the Piper anyway) is one of the only Outcast Masters who doesn't want to run predominantly Keyword in the first place. Most Outcasts have strong Keywords with good internal synergies that makes it hard to rationalise expensive shooting Henchmen with clear vulnerabilities.

The handful that don't, interestingly enough, all have a heavy emphasis on moving models and suddenly Rusty Alyce becomes quite attractive indeed. 

Besides, Alyce is cheaper, more durable, requires less support (discarding a card for her third AP makes her much more independent than requiring another model to give up an AP), and the Pit Trap gives her actual synergies with the handful of Outcast Masters who are actually inclined to run models OOK.

I actually think I hire Alyce considerably more frequently than Mad Dog OOK now that I think about it...

5 hours ago, KID55 said:

Without side help, yes, she is not good now. You need scavenger-babysitter almost every time. But even this doesn't help that much, because sometimes you just don't have mask on a discard, top deck and in a hand. And yes pit trap can be dangerous, I used her with Jack Daw, but in keyword you don't have good options to move opponent's models, so they bring much less profit

I would actually recommend the Catalan Brawler over a Scavenger. Doesn't need a Mask to get Alyce out of combat, can throw models into Pit Traps from quite a long way away, can generate free attacks for her, and can get her into position a lot faster. Those two models were made for one another.

Do people not read Chain Gang on Bishop's card? Yes it requires another model. But we're talking about the Viks. This is not a Keyword where your schemers are going to be isolated while the rest of the crew tries to do the beatdown in the centrefield. Or if they are you're likely well on your way to getting both beatdown and scheming models killed fast...

It's no burden to have someone near Bishop if he gets engaged post-Battle Tempo (hardly an easy thing to do) It's not babysitting an expensive model if you do. The Viks in my experience work best with a MSU style approach to tactics, everyone in that Keyword is so fragile and so mobile that their game plan should always involve support from other models.

Also worth noting, if you run into one of the schemers that Bishop can't kill in an activation, he still renders them Slow and Staggered with one AP and then can Chain Gang out of combat and do his own thing with his remaining actions.