Azahul

Yeah, I am honestly surprised that any tournament would play at 40 stones, so the Adepticon choice took me off guard. I do remember in early M3E that American tournaments had issues playing to five turns at 50 stones a lot. Is that still the case/why it was done?

There is certainly zero consideration of 40 stones as something anyone might want to play beyond slowly scaling up point values for new players in my local meta (and when we do that we play Masters as having 3 AP so that we are teaching new players how Masters work at the "real" 50 stone level ).

27 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

A big difference with Tiri is she can do this without interacting with the opponent. Infamous at least is only ever card cycling, and Transmortis... Well, they were nerfed even with having to interact with the opponent

I'm not ready to call Tiri OP, but I certainly don't like the trend of adding a ton of card draw on top of a very powerful crew.

The entire game is sorta balanced around the idea that card limitation is a factor. Card draw inherently breaks this after a point. Eventually with enough card draw, you're cheating every or most important duels. Then flips are much less relevant to the game.

Fun to be the one getting to just always do your thing. Not so fun to be on the receiving end, and a bit miserable when both players are doing it IMO.

I don't disagree with any of that, though I do think it's worth noting that while Tiri doesn't have to interact with the opponent (and I do think a lot of those Tomes on low TN tactical bonus actions should really be different suits to force more interaction, particularly on beaters like the Iron Matron) the opponent does get to interact with her.

With Jack Daw, unless my opponent is playing very cagey (and I don't usually pick Daw in pools where that's a particularly viable option) I usually assume I'll draw ~4 cards a round off of the Tormented ability alone. Daw1's bonus action can add another 2 or so in some match-ups. Tiri on paper feels like most games she'll be fairly comparable, once opponents are in position to ping off Shielded. There's a big difference in Turn 1 and it certainly makes Tiri way stronger at something like Cursed Objects where she can play at arm's length (though Zipp has this exact same advantage), but the general scope is pretty equivalent to crews that have existed since the start of the edition.

I think the existence of A Por El! is a significant component in what tips Perdita's card draw over the edge. Every card drawn, no matter how weak, is potentially another full AP (and maybe another card drawn...). It's not the only thing on Perdita's card that is a bit crazy, but I think the existence of older crews does indicate that there is a level at which a significant amount of Keyword-locked card draw is totally acceptable. Adding it to crews with very different design philosophies like the Ortegas, on the other hand, adds a context that makes that same card draw truly problematic.

And then the Shenlong thing completely blows all of this out of the water

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Just played a game of Tiri, and we kept being disgusted by the card draw there as well.

Uncapped card draw is something they should be super cautious about IMO.

I was against Perdita, who had better uncapped card draw... So it really feels like the game is becoming a race of "draw tons or be irrelevant." Which just makes for a miserable game when the flips don't matter because everything important can be cheated.

Is Tiri actually in the same league? I haven't played Nomad yet, been putting all my attention into Architect since that seems like the more interesting puzzle to solve, but I look at her and one the surface she doesn't scream "uncapped card draw". She's more like "Draw once per activation if you are able to get the set-up", which is a format we've had around since the M3E release with Keywords like Infamous and Tormented (running theme for dual faction Outcasts, apparently) and, admittedly more problematically, Transmortis. Even with Perdita I don't know if the issue is the card draw per se, it's that she has extremely strong uses for the cards with stuff like A Por El! that was originally designed around limited resources to play with suddenly being given free reign. Similar to the Von Schill+Yannic combo in that respect, in that a huge part of the strength of that combination isn't just that Yannic is drawing you lots of cards but that the effects that draw you cards are ones originally designed with the idea that they cost you resources to do, though I tend to feel like the card draw is a bit stronger and the effects a bit weaker in that instance.

I don't think Desolation Engines have ever been considered good picks in 3e.

Functionally not having a bonus action is definitely an issue with the Desolation Engine. Rat Kings have a similar problem with the same bonus but even then they have a second bonus action and the models they consume are even more replaceable than Abominations.

Personally I'd be happy with the Engines picking up Vile Reclamation. That's a good bonus. Put them up to Defence 4 or 5 and that would probably be enough for them to see play.

On 1/4/2023 at 9:00 AM, ElPuto said:

Hey guys, coming back after a while and still trying to wrap my head around Outcasts and ES choices. Always loved my Parker, so I wanna give a try to Parker2 in an upcoming tournament. What do you think about this?

PERDITION SPAM (Outcasts)
Size: 50 - Pool: 3
Leader:
  Parker Barrows, Dead Man Walking
Totem(s):
  Doc Mitchell
Hires:
  Benny Wolcomb
  Hodgepodge Emissary
  Mad Dog Brackett
  Pearl Musgrove
  Prospector
  Prospector 2
References:
  Malifaux Rat
  Memento
  Pretty Floral Bonnet
  Vitality Potion

3SS cache seems so low but honestly I don't know what to take out.

This is exactly what my very first Parker2 list looked like. Great minds!

I eventually moved to cutting the Prospectors for a higher starting cache and one more workhorse/scheming/support model (that final choice after the Mad Dog, Benny, Pearl, Emissary core is pretty flexible and I vary it by pool) but I don't think the Prospectors are a poor choice by any means.

I would lean away from bringing a small cache and one Prospector though. Two is ok, if you eat Pearl's marker turn one you should have a 6 stone cache to work with early and that should be fine, but this crew's front line lives via soulstones and healing and you really want to be able to burn stones to live through a strong alpha strike if necessary. 2-3 stones and one Prospector won't cut it. In my view you either go a big cache and one other model of choice or a small cache and two Prospectors. Small cache and one Prospector is too risky for me.

I actually really rate Greed in a Crossroads list. She isn't good on her own, but I find she really shines in a situation where other members of the Crossroads are generating Sin for her. I've had some striking moments in which her and Pride being near an enemy Master on 2-3 Sin meant that Envy was able to take those Masters from full health to dead in a single activation, and a myriad of instances of doing something similar to Henchmen.

For me it was Benny Wolcomb. My favourite Masters are Parker and Hamelin. I was originally intrigued by the whole "life cycle" of the Rats as a mechanism, with Rats turning into Rat Kings into Rat Catchers who help make more Rats. But Hamelin had no boxes released that early in 3e, so I was looking at Benny Wolcomb's card and noticed he had a second Keyword and decided to collect that one too to tide me over in the meantime. Turned out I loved Bandits too.

Believe me, nothing makes me happier than the fact that Dead Man Walking actually works well with Benny. The local joke is that my favourite Master is Benny Wolcomb, and Hamelin and Parker are just these odd mutually exclusive Henchmen that go along with him.

Maybe Drivethrurpg? I think a lot of the story scenarios can be found there.

So this is a new exciting addition to the terrain mechanics in Madness of Malifaux! In addition to providing rules for how Tiri's markers are meant to work, there's a new type of terrain that means you can now give terrain features on the table Abilities as if they were models. This isn't entirely a new concept, I've seen people play with house rules for things like trains moving along train tracks each turn or ice formations that count as ice pillars for the purposes of some of Rasputina's Ice Mirror rule, but now that sort of thing is entirely permissable within the framework of the game's core rules.

Personally I find that super entertaining, and as my local community's TO there's likely going to be a good few examples on tables I set up going forward. Fountains with Healing Draught auras, ladders that make scaling climbable terrain faster, portals that teleport models across the table, death traps that can be switched on or off by interacting with the control panel, open terrain that could flash flood if a dam is broken, the possibilities are pretty crazy. In a sense these options were always there, but being given a formal license to throw them into even competitive play has me salivating at the possibilities.

Has anyone else been thinking about the possibilities of this new terrain type? Any suggestions?

4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh thank you. What all starters are there?

The Other Side starter models, the Neverborn Starter, the Outcast Starter, and Bayou Starter are all in there, if that's what you're asking? No Explorers Starter.

29 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I couldn't quite remember the Starters, but I'm pretty sure Bayou and ES released the year before.  Neverborn and Outcasts were in Malifaux Burns I believe.

I mainly am worried about Perdita with guild mage and Von Schill with yannic.  And while yes I could just target those two, it'd be real rich for me the resser player to go "Enslaved and Gwisin are fine.  But Outcasts and Guild are clearly broken."

I also wasn't satisfied with just removing the madness content.

Removing these ~20 cards is the first moment that I felt like I had a good format. It is a bit clunky, but I hope the actual play experience will be excellent.

With other measures, I think they would have been easier to market, but ultimately made for a less fun and balanced format.

It was also after the conversations I had around the first Balancefaux event, where Yannic VS was constantly cited. But I didn't want to pick exactly which things were too strong so I did it by categories.

Bayou starter is in Malifaux Burns for what it's worth. Page 118 onwards.

4 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Looks like you were right. 

No Mad Dog nerf. No underperforming model love either.

Yeah, this felt like a very targeted wave of nerfs just about trimming back the excesses of titles, so I'm not surprised there wasn't scope for an uplift.

At least Parker2 plays entirely in Keyword (barring the Emissary but come on, that thing is so tailored to Bandit it's an honourary member).

2 hours ago, Plaag said:

lj2 and pandora2 get buffed, yannik not nerfed, tara2 still can make same with talos...

Talos can't be buried so his threat ranges are way less problematic.

7 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Yeah. And there's a good chance that you also see Mad Dog on top because he's one of the best shooters in the game and has anti armor if they suspect the opponent will bring any.

To be honest a lot of the time I don't feel that an OOK Mad Dog is necessary. He's a good model... but also an 11 stone model who needs to be babysat by a model that can keep him out of melee and feed him scheme markers. The best option for that in faction is the Emissary, but now you've spent half your list when frankly a lot of Outcast Keywords straight up do not need that investment to handle armour. We have models like Rat Kings, Taelor, and Hannah who can often go in with positive damage flips and do so much work they're not that phased by -1 damage (you use your in Keyword anti armour for the Armour 2 targets), Keywords without anti armour like Zipp and Daw still do fine against armour in my experience thanks to plentiful sources of ping damage, and the only Keyword largely bereft on both fronts is Tara and I've never had trouble handling armour with an all Keyword Tara crew. Killing isn't really your objective there.

I've said in the past that I only hire Mad Dog OOK for anti-armour when my opponent declares Hoffman but honestly I haven't even done that the last few times.

Well, except that you don't

26 minutes ago, Liched said:

Wait, why is Outcast considered to be good against armour? Is it on the random chance you’ll face Leveticus? 
 

There is 9, 10 with pride, models in the faction that can ignore armour in some way. One of them being analyse weakness and an ap trigger on Effigy. Another is a trigger on Viks secondary action. 

Ressers have 5.5 (if you count McM 2 since he can get any action)

By comparison 10T has at least 16 models capable of ignoring armor, 1 analyse and 1 upgrade that makes any model ignore armour in melee 

A lot of the models that ignore armour are all in different Keywords, are almost all good sources of anti-armour, on models you want to take anyway. Even the Analyse Weakness is an action from a 5 stone model who can't be cheated against, it's probably the best Analyse Weakness in the game.

The notable ones in my view are:

-Ronin in Mercenary

-Obedient Wretch in Plague

-Mad Dog in Bandit

-Arik in Freikorps

-Leveticus in Amalgam

Anyway, long story short if you face Outcasts they will more likely than not have declared a Keyword with an anti-armour effect without going out of their way.

Even if Mad Dog got nerfed into the ground it does seem like a bold move to declare armour into Outcasts, yeah

To be fair part of my view is that I don't see Mad Dog as a problem model. I basically only run him in Keyword and he's basically exactly what a high cost beatstick model of his type should be, with clear strengths and very clear weaknesses. Not unusual in competitive play to see him get controlled or dealt with early enough to minimise his impact on the game. He wouldn't be close to my list of models that might see a nerf.

...buuut I'm conscious of the fact that not everyone agrees with me on that point. Maybe we'll continue to see Parker's crews get nerfed as unintentional collateral damage, like with the Wanted Criminal nerf.

30 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I think I might go so far as to remove it completely. He'd still be a great model without the ability to delete armored units.

I'd be surprised if he made it though this errata unchanged.

I'd be surprised if he were, honestly. After all they've had many errata opportunities to change him already and there are some far higher priorities now with all the Malifaux Burns content.

The only problem with Alyce in my book is that her Keyword can't capitalise on her Pit Trap markers well. I find her a compelling choice with Masters like Hamelin2 and Zipp1 who can easily force enemy models into the Pit Traps, and she used to be excellent with Von Schill1 but the Yannic+Engineers module rather displaced her there.

6 hours ago, Thatguy said:

If I was designing the model, I think I would drop the aura to make room for something else because it synergizes poorly with the rest of the model's abilities. The model as is squishy but mobile with Run and Gun, sometimes fast and a defensive movement trigger. It's not the sort of model you want hanging out within 8" of one or more enemy models.

If I were going to keep Trigger Finger, I think the model would need something significant to boost it's surviablility, so it has as chance to stay around long enough to use the aura. Maybe something like they can remove a scheme marker to prevent damage like Ivan's Dark Deception or Mei2's Iron Plating. Maybe not reduce to 0, but prevent 2 or something. Even if they have to burn actions to scheme, that scheme could be fast, or protection or something else.

This was what I was talking about when I speculated how high you would need to ramp their offensive power to make it be worth the risk  I don't hate the idea of giving them something to allow them to live in the centrefield but it is amusing to wonder what it would take to make them worth placing there as-is.

Making the trigger finger key off the model dropping the marker would make positioning requirements a bit easier, sure.

12 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Yeah. I think, like a lot of minions in its price range, to get the bandito buffed to the point where it's useful, you need to give it a pretty clear role.

Maybe that means giving it more mobility or ability to easily drop schemes so it can be a dedicated scheme runner or provide fast for other Bandits. 

If you want it to be mid-ranged support, I think it needs something to make it to offense a little more useful. A positive twist might do it.  I might give it a built-in trigger for something that gives a positive twist damage, once per turn. That way you're encouraged to run and gun with your first AP and then spend another AP getting into cover or out of line of sight. 

The Guns Blazing trigger from Parker2 mayhaps? Would be a nice piece of symmetry there.

6 hours ago, Brilliance Laced Whiskey said:

The Bandido is looking at the new Sappers green with envy.  They are remarkably similar to the Bandido, but get the built in mask for defense and stealth, both of which were suggestions for the Bandido around last errata cycle.  Unlike a Bandido they also get a bonus action and can effectively gain fast.  A Bandido can theoretically get fast, but it remains that, a theory (as they are already dead by time an enemy drops a scheme marker).

 

Looking at the Bandido, I am not sure it would at all be unreasonable to slap on stealth plus the built in mask for defense on the bandido, although I am not a fan of models being too similar.  But then again, Saboteurs and Operatives are basically brothers.

 

Would a built in mask for df and stealth make you consider a Bandido worth 5 points?  I could see myself taking one, hugging cover and running flanks if they got that.  

 

Ideas?

 

 

Stealth would help give the Bandido a role, but it wouldn't be the role they are seemingly designed to perform. I would at least consider hiring one but it would hug a flank and never get to use its Trigger Finger ability.

The ideal, which may well be unachievable, would be to actually make the Bandido functional in that mid-range combat support role where it gets lots of attacks and gets more as scheme markers drop.

Obviously the first step would be to actually make Trigger Finger functional by removing the aura symbol. You would need a defensive rule too, maybe Disguised would be appropriate? But I also wonder how far you could push the Bandido's offensive power while leaving it trivial to kill before it becomes broken. Giving it a positive to its attack, a built in tome, and adding Onslaught to its triggers maybe? Would that be enough to balance it inevitably dying to one swing?