Nagi21

2 hours ago, dannydb said:

thats the idea of staggered, its to stop people getting away 

So with this ruling, how do you resolve the once per turn restriction, since according to the above ruling the model controlling it is taking and controlling the action, not the model with the ability.

6 hours ago, dannydb said:

"obey" and Staggered

"Staggered:This model suffers -2Mv and cannot be moved by the effects of other friendly models" 

Obey "target model takes a non free action..... chosen and controlled by this model"

as the obeying model is choosing and controlling the action, its an effect of that model. therefore obey can not be used to make friendly staggered models move

 

if there are any other rules queries please let me know  

 

Disagree vehemently with this ruling, since it would also mean no obeying units out of enemy engagement ranges, among other things.  

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

... did the font change in the app?

You've gone mad.

6 hours ago, Da Git said:

The other model I really like is the Wicked Doll, 3ss (so can take 2 for the same cost as and OOK Necropunk). Stealth, Creep Along and 2 bodies on the field mean you can spread out and drop 2+ markers a turn on opposite sides of the board.

Absolute bargain!

They're not bad but they get stepped on by literally anything and their movement bonus action requires something to be towards what it's going to, which presents some issues in a lot of situations.  Still, they have their uses.

On 7/9/2020 at 7:43 AM, Regelridderen said:

Take Rusty or Doc and put them into Neverborn and you'd see the outcasts defect in droves.

Can you say Fly with Me Alyce?

Seriously though, the only correct answer for any faction, is SS Miners.

8 minutes ago, Ceodoc said:

Hi.

Thoon's melee attack, Chain Wrapped Fists tome trigger; Frozen Trophy reads: Once per turn.

Does that mean a Doppleganger cannot mimic and use the same trigger?

No, once per turn effects only apply to the model currently activated.

4 hours ago, Adran said:

Although that could be said about most models that cost 5 or 6. There are a few outliers (necropunks have always been mobile and hard to get rid of),  but most factions "scheme runners" are about as fragile.

Mostly true, but other than the outliers that are survivable, other scheme runners have one of three things:

A) A way to stay alive while they do their thing

2) A way to kill something at around its own cost to force a larger reaction

C) A way to lay down more than 1 scheme marker per turn

The bultungin fall under none of these.  It does not survive against most other 5 stone models, it does not murder most other 5-6 stone models, and while it has deadly pursuit, that does not help in laying down markers like something like leap would due to the timing.

On 7/7/2020 at 1:57 PM, Roadhouse said:

What about Bultungin? SPD 6 with Deadly Pursuit and cost 6 outside of keyword.

I haven't played in years, getting back into the game as a friend started building a table.

Look at the rest of the statline and their attack.  They're fast, but the issue with them is dying to a stiff breeze.

16 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Dreamer, Titania, Zoraida and Pandora are all great. Pandora just has some bad match ups. Lucius is really good in scheme pools yeah, but definitely requires a time investment to learn. Euripides runs into problems against opponents who know all his tricks and/or a bunch of anti-marker tech like some factions have. Marcus and Nekima both reside in the area of good damage and mobility but don't have the general survivability to back it up, leading them to be just under-par from a generalized competitive stand-point but still have some good match ups.

Zoraida doesn't have a keyword really so she's entirely dependent on your opponent.  Titania can be ok, but is barely hovering the average area.  Pandora is literally feast or famine.  Either she wins hard or she's struggling all game, and it seems the latter more often.

They all have some good matchups, but there's far too many hard counter matchups in each faction.

9 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

Malifaux is quite balanced, and all crews have their distinct flavour. 

This game is a lot of things, but balanced is not one of them.  We all know how bad Guild is, and nobody hides it.  NVB was barely viable pre GG1 and after the changes they've fallen into a virtual tie with Guild due to the Dashel buffs.  Meanwhile 9/10 of the most broken crews are either TT, Outcast, or Rezzer.

It's not completely broken, but we're far from balanced.

11 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

That title still goes to guild. And it's not great advice for neverborn because half of the masters are still great, and half the masters range from hyper specialized to just not competitive enough.

I'd say just barely.  Dreamer is great, Nekima and Titania are so-so, the rest are too specialized or inflexible to be viable competitively.  Lucius I'd say is also good in a schemy pool, but he takes soooo much time to learn that the juice is almost not worth the squeeze.

17 hours ago, Huascar said:

I am looking to get into casual Malifaux games playing friend who picked up a large range of neverborn figures - so I doubt he will be playing anything else for a while. Any particular faction that would make or good (or particularly bad) match for neverborn? Not looking for an overwhelming advantage, just want to ensure good close games. I currently have my eye on the Outcast-Parker crew, but willing to try anything except more neverborn. Appreciate any advice.

Rezzers would wreck him so I'd avoid that unless you're going to play solely Seamus. 

Guild would be good, but they're arguably tied with NVB for worst faction right now. 

Arcanist has some interesting matchups, but there are a handful of hard counters on both sides (Pandora smashes Toni and Hoffman, but Toni breaks Nekima over her knee every time).

NVB v NVB is actually a pretty interesting matchup, but I'd avoid it for the same reason as Guild.

Outcasts are probably the strongest faction right now, but they do require a little bit of finesse to use correctly (unless you're playing Levi).  The guns available are going to make his life hell though.  Range is a huge advantage, and they have a lot of gunfighter too if needed.

Bayou is good against most of the NVB buuuut aside from Mah, Nekima is a pretty hard counter to most of them, due to the grow mechanic combined with an abundance of shove aside. 9/10 vs not Nekima, 3/10 vs Nekima.  You're probably gonna wanna invest in Tricksy (Mah Tucket).

Ten Thunders present the same issue to NVB as Outcasts: Versatile guns.  Samurai alone counter a LOT of things in the crew, and TT have a lot of ruthless to counter even the good crews like Dreamer.  It's not the worst matchups in the game, but there's a significant uphill battle in a lot of those matchups.

23 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

From a competitive POV, it is probably good if your strengths are focused in one faction (Arcanists going by what you're saying) and weaknesses in another (Ressers).

Just don't declare Pandora into Ressers.

Right but she also struggles into things like Outcast, TT, and Guild for various reasons.  My point being that just because a crew is really good at taking on one faction (although Collette is a pretty good counter in Arc too...), they're not viable if they're terrible against everything else.  It just makes them a niche tech crew.

15 hours ago, DevilCat said:

When you consider how often the enemy has to cheat against her terrifying aura, the new iteration of IR is actually amazing on her.

It doesn't matter if they cheat though, the attack can still happen even if it's out of range due to the declared step.

While I agree that Pandora isn't the worst NVB master, she has a lot of counter matchups that are basically unplayable which make her bad in a competitive sense.  Example being she can be very good against some Arcanists like Toni and Hoffman, but dies terribly to Rezzers overall.

Worst NVB master right now is probably Nekima, but she has a fantastic crew to make up for it.  Euripides would probably be a close second.  I'm not counting Marcus cause he's really an Arc master trying to play NVB.  Worst overall crew I feel is Euripides, but that's mostly because marker crews aren't great right now anyway aside from Kaeris.

2 hours ago, Ceodoc said:

I think the glass cannon moniker has been changed to glass handgun, like someone mentioned above.

Yay it's catching on!

Hina, Stitched, Serena, Kunoichi.  Literally anything you attack dies and you are so fucking tanky.

13 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Hey, Talos is still a piece of crap, they could fucking fix that.  Nope.  Having two of her big models be crap is an actual serious issue.

Get in line behind literally ALL of non-dreamer NVB then...

13 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Terrifying 13 and HtW + printed  for Entropy in Defense. Yes, he has Defense 3, but models without Ruthless are not going to take him down in 2 attacks. Also with SoDP he heals 2 every time he kills, which allows you to use necrotic decay and recover the damage  while bumping yours to 4/6/7 or go for the Consuming Touch and heal 3/4/5 when you kill.

With some extra support healing from Leveticus and the Emissary, he always killed me enough models or was annoying enough to allow me to score some points. Terrifying 13 is the key to make him stay alive a little longer.

I've used Marlena to good effect with him with Levi's Kansas City Shuffle, since she's pretty tanky and people are always a little jittery to attack her because of her trigger.

31 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Personally I'd much rather buffs focus on models that are almost universally bad, rarely or never taken (or with a low win rate when they are taken).

The problem is that there are very rarely models that are unarguably bad.  Hell I just had someone tell me the other day bloodwretches were fine 5ss models.  

I think the issue is that the balancing is all over the place.  For example have models in Rezzers which are insanely overtuned, but nothing is done about them, going up against models in other factions which are technically balanced, but aren't overturned, making the model look fine in a vacuum, but have real issues on the actual table vs a lot of things.  Follow that with "but it's really good against some things", and you get nothing happening.  Just because a model is really good against something, doesn't justify it being really bad against a lot of other things.

8 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

 

You can absolutely get a good idea of what master is going to be picked by your opponent, especially if you know them and what they like.  The order is faction, strat/scheme, then master.  If you know your opponent is Arcanists, and plays Hoffman, Colette, Kaerys, and Sandeep, and you know that it's Symbols - Breakthrough/Assassinate/Sabotage/Spread them Out/Runic Binding you'd probably be able to guess what they'd bring.  This isn't a wild idea, people do it all the time.  
 

Dreamer's just OP, that's different.

Sandeep and Kaeris are both good in that pool, and Hoffman/collette are not lacking either.  So please enlighten me on how much fun Kaeris v. Pandora would be.  I'll wait.

Dreamer is strong because he doesn't have any bad matchups.  He's only busted when he brings along Zoraida.

11 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Man, I really think focusing on Pandora is the wrong approach.  First, the Neverborn have Euripides, Titania, and Marcus who could all use a little extra love, and Lucius who could probably use a slight tweaking.Second, and more importantly, Pandora is a counter crew.  If GG1.5 buffs a bunch of crews so that they're more viable, Pandora's position in the meta will change.  Sure, she might get worse, but she might actually get better.  More, it'll be hard to evaluate what is good or bad.  

If you do any change, just remove Misery from Pandora and give her Box of a Thousand Woes 8" Aura that does the exact same thing Misery does.  That'd let the master doublestack the Auras the way Hamlin's Source of the Contagion is different from his models' Diseased.  That'd make every keyword model in her crew better, but keeps a lid on the insanity possible with aura stacking.  Then see how it is in GG2, buff her then.  She's not so bad that she would suffer in this condition left an extra 6 months.

Oh and by the by, Aura stacking would definitely give Hamlin a nice buff I'm not entirely sure he needs.  As in it might be "OH MY GOD MY FACE" if he can go off with it.  Leveticus would also very much appreciate the overlapping Entropy bubbles.  I'm not entirely sure that melee crews would even be able to beat him at all if that went through.  "At the start of your activation take 5 damage" sounds a bit unfair.  For Leveticus' crew in particular, because oh boy do they have damage outside of auras.

I mean... we know we have Euri who needs work, and Marcus (although I refuse to acknowledge the latter as NVB.  We never wanted him and still don't).  Luci is good but complicated, and Titania's in an ok-ish place.  I'd say she needs less a tweak than Pandora.  Your idea for a second ability might work.  Might make sorrows more like they were in 1e (hovering around Dora specifically).  I also disagree in your thought that Pandora is a counter crew.  You can't counter pick entire masters since crew selection is blind, but she doesn't have the ability to counter build to at least one matchup in each faction.  A counter crew is a crew that can get an even game in any matchup, i.e. Dreamer.

Also I'm not saying to change the aura rules, I'm talking about changing misery itself.  We have abilities that say "within x" without it being an aura.  Would not be the craziest thing, particularly with the once per activation restriction.

9 hours ago, Adran said:

There is also Candy who literally just gives out stunned by standing there (and also costs you a card).  

In addition several of the stunned handed out by the crew are triggers on actions, so you would probably be doing the action anyway. So whilst it does require an action, its not the sole result of the action. Likewise if the model doesn't have another bonus action then the cost of its bonus action to apply stunned is a very low cost.

I knew I was forgetting someone.  Ironically the second best model in the crew.  As far as the require an action, remember that most of the Woes can only stun on a bonus action, meaning they get one chance to do it.  If your opponent cheats to stop it, you do exactly 0 damage.  

9 hours ago, Adran said:

This I think is a core issue. The woe crew has some good match ups, and some bad match ups. 

I think you're missing the core issue.  The main issue is that Pandora has one effective way to play competitively, which goes against the entire theme of her crew.  Can you play a cheap misery trigger bubble and just hand out short ranged stun vs some crews?  Sure, but it's going to take significantly more effort and be a lot higher risk than just using opportunist on expensive models like Candy and Carver, and supporting them with things like Rider and Kade.  The lack of being able to play her in any other kind of good way, combined with the handful of just counter picks across the factions make her a risky and unattractive crew competitively.  

It's basically the same as Raspy and Euri.  If it's great, it's borderline broken.  But that great only happens maybe 20% of the time and the rest of the time it's an uphill slog.

14 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Sorry, but can't but disagree with the idea of Misery being stackable. 6" Is in fact a very long range for a effect that affects enemies and is passive and damaging. 

This is patently false unless you're giving yourself conditions.  Woes have one thing that gives out a condition without having to take an action, and that's Pandora's defensive trigger.  Everything else requires AP to use (whether that be regular or bonus AP).  6" is not very good for an ability that both requires AP and is severely limited.

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think probably the crew needs multiple small buffs spread across all the minions (although I hear Aversion are actually pretty good, I've not fielded them yet).

Aversions are ok in that they're tanky, but they don't really benefit the crew in any kind of synergistic way other than moving Candy up.  It's kinda like a worse version of an insidious.  They also do basically no damage at all even with misery.

4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

They also only cost 4/5/6 stones. Most 4/5/6 stone models that are taken are taken for utility - Little Gasser, Restless Spirit, Crooligans, Dead Dandy, Necropunk, Night Terrors, Ashigaru (summoned), Alps (summoned), Nurse, Gravediggers, etc.

IMO, 4/5/6 cost models should generally be utility oriented (can't exactly turn them into min 3 beaters).

I mean a single 4/5/6 model should, but you get 1 damage from 1, 2 damage from 2, etc.  It's not heresy to have high damage output from complementary cheap models (also look at things like bushwackers...).

4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

From an action efficiency perspective, it is also just 1 action. Or if you use candy to do it, you get to the point where a model that activates gains stunned, discards a card, and takes 4 damage without any actions spent beyond positioning. Similar for a model attacking Pandora and her using defensive trigger for stun.

Not to mention this just makes her bubble more dangerous (which is already insanely dangerous), whereas your main complaint seems to be based on her not being good against certain crews (where the bubble is less likely to apply).

Although personally I think keep her as a bubble crew.

Honestly having Misery go from an aura to a "within 6" would probably be best.  Yes you can hit for a lot of damage but it's still once per activation, and it's still stoppable, and it's still within that really short range bubble to maximize damage.  I mean really, how many times have you been completely clustered in a 6" bubble where you could put out 4 misery pulses.  It's usually 2, maybe 3 if it's the main bubble, but often you have to spread out unless it's a completely one sided pool.

My main complaint is that there's no reason to play a risky cheap woe bubble when it's better just to take expensive woes and use them similar to Asami's models in giving and taking conditions to get positives instead of using the main theme and ability of the crew.

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Personally I think that this (unlimited Misery + stacks) would be insanely powerful. The crew is already pretty darn powerful, it is just lacking in some areas. Like Reva and Revanent, Woe could easily go from "doesn't quite work" to top tier broken IMO.

Perhaps instead the minions could have more utility to make the bubble more dangerous, but not directly more damaging. Consider Montresor in Tormented, who makes it so staggered doesn't fall off.

Could have something like:

• Sorrows have an aura that makes it so stunned doesn't come off models (or gets reapplied for an extra misery trigger when it does fall off).
• A minion with an aura "When a model within 3 gains stunned, it also gains staggered."
• Or an aura that says that a model with stunned cannot use bonus actions at all, or a model with stunned cannot charge, or a model with stunned cannot disengage.

Etc. Woe have SO MUCH DAMAGE already, I'd say that a buff for them should be utility based. Something to restrict enemy movement or actions in their bubble (as giving Woe more movement seems like a bad idea). It is also very thematic, just draining away the ability to do anything when you're near a Woe crew.

Here's the thing though: Woe only have so much damage (and their damage is really overstated unless your opponent walks into you) vs crews they're already good against.  And yes sure you can say the obvious thing like "Well don't take them out of good matchups", but the issue is, with the blind picking of crews, each faction has bad matchups for her, and her crew suffers the same issue Rasputina does in that if she's in a bad matchup, it doesn't do very much.  Sure Pandora and Candy do a lot of damage, but the rest of the crew is just not good.  Kade has some use, but against wp crews its not so great and he's squishy, and all the other high damage woe options are extremely expensive, so you don't get a Woe bubble, you just get a bunch of expensive woe models because the alternatives are not viable in the current state.

To your examples:

- An aura to reapply stunned might work, but that leaves Aversions and Lyssa's in the same place.

- I fail to see the effectiveness of giving staggered as well as stunned, especially in an aura half the size of the already short misery aura.

- Could work but it doesn't help the issue at hand, being that Lyssa/Sorrow/Aversions are easily deleted and don't do damage for their cost.

Also an aside:

15 hours ago, Zebo said:

Mmm When you say that Misery should stack, you mean that you think that a model gaining Stunned near 4 woes should suffer 4 wounds by the face? 

That's 4 models your opponent paid for.  Assuming they're sorrows + 1 whatever, that's 20+ points of model to do 4 damage.  Frankly that's a bargain of damage for cost.

10 hours ago, Zebo said:

 

Yes, because Woes don't have things like Stat 7 Lures, or 6" Auras. 

Hmm... Stat 7 lure... 6" aura... where have I heard that before...

Oh right, Toni.  Actually no... hers is better since it's mv + 2...