Spiku

And amazing at removing the stolen. But yeah if you are reducing Perdita hates mozzies. Most importantly, your slop hauler can be moved up with Ophelia to do a (2) Slop Spray to 3" pulse everyone down to 4Df, unresisted. It lets you get the slop hauler into a 17" threat range for slop spray (even better if you have him doing it through a building. You could essentially have Ophelia companion Rami, walk up, Ooh! A Girl! slop hauler, make the slop hauler go next, have the slop hauler walk + spray (or spray + walk if perdita has been stupid) then have rami shoot at her with 7cb vs 4df. Generally you are already out activating anyway.

Csonti, that is not a correction. I was asking a very specific question; 3 actions and on 1st turn. I am fully aware of his more usual uses; counter drop model when you've had time to stack your hand.

Yeah, those practices were foolish. I except the volume of general players must be high enough that the people I know who quit don't matter. I mean, in my local scene they only lost about a third of the players, and this is an older group. If it didn't affect the young/store footprint it likely hasn't made enough difference to matter to them, and if they saved enough on shipping well good for them. Shame it cost their opinion amongst the more... gosh I don't know a non-patronising term for the people who are in MY circle of players like people online here and in my groups, vs younger players and people who play in GW stores. People who like the things I like, but not in a way I like them to! ;D I feel that the people who left, including myself, are just a bit like the computer gamers who rage at Nintendo for focusing on the "casual" market, when it is just as lucrative.

Well, everyone knows who I will take at a tournament, even if I'm vs Neverborn ;D Master reveal I like in principal, but I would have to play it. I am a little concerned that being able to build specific counter crews might be a bit powerful in already bad match up results on master pick. Meh.

Shared Contain Power = Draw.

Never underestimate the Young LaCroix. They may not be significant, but they provide such damage output. In Slaughter, I feel you are making a mistake. Taking Ophelia and Rami gives you the hit and run to get the one kill and auto win slaughter until they come to you. You are also throwing away a soulstone because you had 7 left over. If I took Som'er, with Ophelia and Rami; I can summon farm as many Bayou's as you in 2 turns, except I have access to card killing and unresisted wounds (except against you, because you are a gremlin player ;D) Vs you, I'd have a pig list with Ophelia and Rami in; because that way I can hit and kill your Bayou Gremlins easily with piglets, and return to behind cover. Forcing you to come to me, which means my rami + Ophelia have an easier time of sniping yours. Equally, in contain power, having Som'er available to remove enemy cards means your pigapulted Ophelia can do WAY more damage. List 2: Hog Whisperer is 5ss. If this list dropped the avatar and slop hauler, and grabbed Rami, it would be far stronger at Contain Power and Slaughter. Taking a Hog Whisperer only to support Avatar Som'er is 7ss spent on support +6ss lost from Ophelia's cache +8 soulstones on hiring Ophelia because you lead with Som'er. List 3: Trying to keep Bayou's alive with slop haulers, is hard. Doing 4 damage in one strike against bayous is not hard. Assassinate: In the way you are viewing this, you are expecting to get a lot of shots off on the master. This is a huge gamble given terrain and the defensive options available to most. If you have both Som'er and Ophelia, it is far easier; huge and reliable soulstone damage options. The pigapult has Cb4, however, and sensible players are not putting their master near their low df models on the advance, and you are relying on throwing Bayou's as you have no pigs to sacrifice to do damage with it. While I rarely, if ever, take this, it is strong vs Seamus, and worth taking if you have both Ophelia and Som'er, and the opponent needs to be anywhere mid field. Mosquitoes and Som'er spells will get this, combined with Ophelia's auto double damage soulstoned pairs. Other than risking your models on being thrown with pigapult, right now your only reliable damage output on masters when not with Som'er is Rami + Ophelia pull and shoot, as it lets you ignore most terrain. Bodyguard: Som'er is Df 6/Wp 6. Given how he tends to be surrounded by models so you can't place on top him, and in the deployment zone, not usually an issue. If you were to take piglets, you also have truffles to move him, not just his 15" move. Coupled with that his healing flips, ability to kill the hand of people, and unresisted blasts on df7/wp6 flight 10 mosquitoes; he is generally the stronger choice than Ophelia with her Wp4. He is, however, height 2, so you cannot model block without pigapult or McTavish. This is one of your most reliable schemes. So what I largely notice with your lists, is they are all trying for the same thing. When you have set lists, you want to have them focus on specific goals. With escape and survive you only have to be nearly mid field. One thing you should consider with escape and survive is that if you summon a bayou, the new one doesn't count for escape and survive unless you killed the previous one; making it fodder; let those ones do the risky things whilst you move the old ones up, healed. When I have set lists I have each take certain goals in mind; normally my last list would have Som'er in too, in a set list format, because card denial is too strong with Ophelia. But here is how I would core, with an option select for when I am having to be defensive/poor anti neverborn/hamelin list (very weak with this inception, but blind fixed lists screw us) and one more suited to your playstyle 1) All comer Som'er + Avatar Mosquito 3 Bayou 1 Hog Whisperer 1 Rat or any other 2 point model/piglet 4 Piglets 6 ss For things like escape and survive, you have access to: 4 mosquitoes with 10 inch movement, piglets with a net total movement available to them of 84" of movement available to them. You can just Som'er Bomb most opponents, and even though you can't fart on them, you can win vs gremlins just by setting piglets on them. You get the very most out of your Hog Whisperer, you can summon a piglet killing the rat to heal your mozzies, you can factory if you want, and mosquitoes auto give you card cycling when they arrive. 2) Option Select Som'er Mosquito 3 Bayou McTavish Pigapult Rami LaCroix 3ss Two large base Wp blocking models, mosquitoes to harass, Ophelia and Rami for strikes, support Som'er. You are free to use the drain souls option despite the horrific -1wp for your terrible wp models. I would normally run this without Rami but this isn't for me =D Som'er can summon piglets for the pult on the right cards depending what you are vs. 3) The other player is lame Ophelia 3 Young LaCroix 7 Bayou Gremlins Rami LaCroix Raphael LaCroix Slop Hauler 5ss And you get your shooty list with Raph added in for objective grabbing whilst you are at it. You might find this list familiar =3 Just checking, but you -are- aware the Pigapult can't attack without sacrificing a piglet, right?

Guy: depends on initiative =3 I mean companioned som'er can pull all those pigs a good 20" away, and then after that I've still got access to more mosquitoes =D Gosh Dreamer would be annoying with that. Dump entire crew, hope for best.

dgraz: That's quite hard to comment on; you're basically saying that you don't like how the forum is because of the tone of people like Buhalin trying to fight with Calmdown rather than contribute to threads, and Calmdown being cold to people; and the feeling that this is the underpinning "feel" of the forum, sweeping aside more general posts? Thanks for the clarification on here and there; I'm not in a position to comment on our country though =X London is a bugger as it is to try and define any part politically! I'm still relatively new; I mean I've seen Calmdown banned for calling a racist stupid, and I've been in and out because of how discussions turned myself because of the engagements between myself and someone, and seen a fair old conversation turn into just angry comments about attitudes rather than the content, but I do like to be here, otherwise I wouldn't be =D Does the silent majority refer only to the fact they aren't engaging vocally, or is it suggesting that there is an underlying shared feeling amongst them more than just not wishing to be vocal? Ciroth: The tiers are based on the game as is; I would never play in a tournament with a closed list, and I sure hope no one has hosted one! The game is based on picking your crew when you have your strategy, and taking schemes that suit your goals. If you had a set list, it would severely weaken some crews, and put the dreamer (and likely Hamelin) further ahead than he is presently! It is generally best to look at these purely as a single master and his match ups against every other master. Though point values would seem to mean more, you'll find that generally everyone fits in their core at 30-35 anyway, and everything above that is just extra "toys". The power spread favours, in my opinion, neverborn at higher points value, just because of the strength of the twins and stitched in the first place!

Where is there and here? I still don't really understand I am afraid, I'm sure you're not being cryptic, but I don't understand at all. Equally who or what is the silent majority? Just people who aren't posting in this thread?

I don't approve of Judge saving Justice. That was lame

dgraz: what exactly are you trying to contribute here?

I feel that once again we're not really playing Malifaux with fixed masters; there are strategies that just favour certain masters so much more; and it's not fun if you're stuck with one you have when you want to switch up strategies.

Calmdown beat me to the punch. Realistically there is not enough time in the day for how I would seek to run a tournament, as it would require too many games to eliminate people. SoS is used to handle the fact that they would be incomplete, essentially. edit: single to double elimination can't work effectively within a single day remit due to having to spread across strategies. so I've cut that bit out. You are so oblivious to only just get to that conclusion~ He bloody is!

Your last sentence was ambiguous, I assumed it was referring to the "being pushed out of tier 1" as opposed to the match up. Certainly when my opponent announces Neverborn, I'm taking McTavish =3

Why do you feel gremlins have a poor match up vs Hamelin when they have models that ignore insignificant, numerous blasts, attrition against Nix, card killing, huge amounts of unresisted aoe that wont trigger Nix's failed test ability, 10" flying movement that can kill a stolen on a 8+ cheatable flip, McTavish with (0)shrug off, and ability to deal direct Wds?

As is obey on Pere after Som'er gives him Hard To Kill, or a nurse gives him undying Or red joker farming with two mosquitoes and Seamus in Ratty format ;D

I adore the idea of shared hold out as a gremlin player. Without spending the time to think about it, I would imagine I am automatically top 3 for that scenario. There have been a fair few games I have ended by flying Avatar Som'er 24"+, with 5+ piglets with him using Root Around to become significant, into the enemy deployment zone. Not least of all the fact I can have gremlins mid field and just 15" run them =D

That's not entirely fair. He had raised that whilst all the options are present, they are not achievable. In fact it was on the very subject of Nicodem, which in this thread still went unanswered as to what he has to compete. Further, he was right. The person admitted their inexperience. You might not think it was right of him to say it, but he was correct in his judgement. No one seems to pay any attention to the arrogance of the person he called inexperienced. The person who said that you are A) a bad player or playing him wrong, as the only explanations as to why CD did not rate Nicodem. The same person who believed that "no one plays Nicodem" like he does. The problem here is you would need some form of measure of skill. Or rather an array, that compares set responses to different scenarios and reactive cognitive responses. You would have to class results from each player based on their competencies in different aspects of play, or rather differences. Otherwise, me playing the worst player in my store has equal data to the best, at which point we lose all merit for a competitive tier list. There is a vast gulf of difference between measuring mechanical tiers of units in a game, and the results of play of the players themselves. I've beaten The Dreamer 75% of the time I have played against him as Gremlins; this would be hugely misleading data for measuring the system itself, but dramatically revealing of the skill of my opponent. What compounds the problem is the use of VPs to determine ranking. If I go to a tournament, and the brackets end up with weak players on one side, with myself there, and the other side is all the masters; I will in all likelihood end up with a far higher ranked score, despite not playing anywhere near as hard. Victory should be the only criteria considered; and there really should be finalist games. But generally people don't feel there is time for it =3 and speaking of which, I've lost 1st place in two tournaments because turn six didn't happen because of time, so we can scrap that from my bias ;D

Is that all? I've spent well over $300 on just one master =D Also, don't worry about it. GW made me experience all these wonderful games too. Having been a wargamer for some 22 years or so, I'll say that Malifaux really is my favourite, and if it wasn't for GW being so patently rubbish, I would not have returned to the crucible of wargames to find it

Doesn't really mean much if we don't have a scope of what that value is to the project; I've had 40k go down on a project and cripple it, and I've had 240m go on a negotiations bid and it meant nothing to company. Still, you need better managers when dealing with company or higher scale funds. Traders and analysts can be some of the worst people in the world, and if you're putting someone in charge of a project of that scale, and don't know how to use their skills and not let them misrepresent, then that's entirely your fault. If you watched an attitude cause that when it wasn't a director, then you're just as much to blame =3 The problem I have really is that you never really see valid arguments -against- what they say. When Calmdown explained how dreamer could remove Nico's defences after everyone said he was a tough master, no one had a rebuttal. The only arguments presented against tier list has been "my meta is different, because these people do best with these masters". At my three local stores I can tell you with 90% accuracy the result of any game between players; from these results I could say that Ophelia is top tier, and that Hamelin is a 100% loss vs gremlins. But if I just look at the mechanics of what we have, and then play with the player I know who would be better than me were he to have my ability to judge distances within a tiny margin; I would know where the relative power lay. Sure, I can beat his pandora with Som'er, but it is far harder than if I had a more suited character. Saying: you haven't played the guys at my group just shows a lack of mechanical dissection. That same lack of insight that has people saying Seamus is a good match up against Som'er because of terrifying.

Yeah, as you can imagine I was quite amused when I realised that Som'er isn't as bound as Ophelia in brawls~

Calmdown: I'm offended you would suggest I would use such a mechanic, with brawl doubles coming up so soon, with an entirely reliable method of both out activating and summoning in someone's deployment zone which no one could possibly have suggested was on my mind.

Dreamer does have awesome fluff, but he's no Gremlin!

Do you mean move as in action, or move as in push =D At present I'm at: Page 26 mentions effect of the Trigger, cross referenced with page 19 to confirm that these are effects, and then back to page 6's second bulletpoint for the order: Blinding Flash pauses Scalpel Sling and completes, as Scalpel Slinging is still being processed. Now, I'm hesitant to suggest that as Scalpel Slinging requires damaged, and Blinding Flash requires being attacked, because I don't have the card, only the Book =D But by the book it would suggest that as you activate triggers (lowest result first) in the totals resolution step, and resolve them before damage, Blinding Flash would go off first anyway. I've only got the book though =3 Edit; Oh yeah e_e Time for a complete action vs trigger rehash despite the push being an effect of an action.

Damaging is part of the requirement of the trigger, which creates an effect; Scalpel slinging is in action during the strike it creates and base contact; the defensive trigger effect comes in to place off of the scalpel slinging effect.