Wasp

So, after some talking with some members from this nice forum I think why my fist feeling was the game would be a little bit imbalanced. My favorit game FoW have a hugh number off core rules, they belongs to all player, regardles what they play. Only a very few rules are for the different Nations nor more then a few sides in over hundred of the Rulebook. In Malifaux I have only a few core rules and many many special rules deliverd by the Mini´s. But these extra set of rules belongs only to that player who field the mini. When I have a greater range of minis I have a greater access to more rules, and that give´s me an advantage over other players. So I expand my set of rules (that goes on with the number of Minis I own) to be more flexible, more competitive to meet the requirements of the Tactics. I wouldn´t say that you must own more then one Master or a reale big range of Minis but it should help a lot.

over the time of the discussion I think more and more this game is nothing for me. I am not realy ready for such a game. I seek for a nice little game with few minis, but I notice malifaux didn´t match my criteria. These powergaming; creativ, emergant or some what rules are too very part of the game. Overall I thank you all for this nice litte thread, it would make fun to discuss with you. I would post my insights from this thread in the "Balance" thread, but I think for me this thread would be much more productive

I think that´s against the system behind malifaux. The fractions and even the single characters are to different that the startet boxes are belanced against each other in every Tactic. When Wyrd make this possible they broken with their gamemechanic I think.

Mhh I didn´t have the actual mediteran Rulebook. My is from 2006 "Afrika" there you can only field max. 6 Churchills in a rifle company. Tank company didn´t can overall. But Midwar isn´t played much here, so I am not realy fit with the new Midwar lists. I knew that you would write this. But can you a little bit understand me, why in the ohter thread I find the game imbalanced. I came from a game where my definition of powerplay isn´t existing. Your definition, I agree, right that´s happens in FOW. Basicly FOW is a game with one set of rules for all players. Only a very little part of the rules (Special Rules for the Nations) are different from these corerules. Even the "powergaming" rules would count for all players. In Malifaux are a small section of core rules and tons of Character based rules. And the opportunities out of these rules and few sentences and stats are hugh. And ye more different rules you have, whats ongoing with the number off minis and fractions you own and play, the possibilities to win a match increase similarly. This rules are bound to the Charakters you field and are not available to every player. As a bloody noob like me, with only a few minis it´s look´s like unbalenced. And yes I agree it´s realy not when I expand my set of rules (minis) to act more flexible to meet the prerequisites of the shemes.

LOOOOL Sorry my english is sooooo bad... I know it, they made a nice graphic in the 2nd Edition book, so all players can see what means LOS and was not. I would say please can you give me a example for powergaming in the second edition, dont fix it in the second edition :) Your examples are streangh I can belive that a player realy would think thats right. But I miss one condition for Powergaming. This "rule interpretation" counts for every player, not only for the player who spokes it out. He must expect that his own tactic turns against him. So he can beaten by his own Powergaming. To make the circel full now I post a sample form Malifaux, what I think is Powergaming. The terrible Nekima/Lelitu/Desperate Mercenary move. I remember that you can sacrefice your minions to get one soulstone. Did you do so, your other minios have reduced WP? I haven´t a rulebook allready at range so please be merciful. Now the move: 1 Turne: Nekima take 4 wounds and get a blood counter. Now Nekima slays the Desperate Mercenary and get another blood counter. Now it would be strange, the Desperate Mercenary take "A last noble deed" and gives Nekima a healing flip. At next Lelitu summons with two bloodcounter a Lelu. With a litle bit of luck Nekima have back their 12 Wd. Or ad least 10. You can bring this combo even in littel 25SS matches, that is strange. At fist you slay a member of your crew (mercenary or not) than this guy heals you right from the grave (because he is so lucky that you kill him) and at least you get a 7 Points mini out of a 2 point mini. And all without any negative aftereffects for you. Literally it´s a regular move I think, but even so I think it´s cant meet the Idear behind "A last noble deed" and the gaining of blood counter. So thats meet my discription for power gaming. Only the Neverborne player have a advance form this and should get a advantage over the other player. it could be in the nature of the neverborne to use this tactics, but why even this crews loose wp by sacrifice crew members for soulstones. And, yes I know the discussion where in the Showgirls crew would kill one showgirl another to receave reactivate. And I even think so that is Powergaming by missuse the idear behind some fine rules.

Ahhh now I know. Mybe it´s only my opinion but I think the FOW Army Lists meet the historical formations at a point the game is balanced and make fun. The exampel list´s in my Post give your Force 7 Tiger I or 5 Tiger II. On the westfront the 316. Tankcompany recive 33 Tiger I an 12 Tiger II around the 27. June 1944. They start their combatmission an the 11. July 1944. On the eastern front the 505. Heavy Tank Company would refreshd with 45 Tiger II because they vanished to only 15 Tiger I. Thats only two examples but they can stand for even more. So, these numbers never can field by an force in FOW only you have an very very very big table and your players agree to 45.000 Points battle...or so I don´t know if my written forces ever meet on the battlefield but I think they can. Historical and in fiction.

I think it´s could be the ralism of the game. Often only tactics from real life funktion. You can´t charge over open ground against a HMG Platoon. didn´t you pin them they kill you. Dramatic, simple, stupid. Save private james ryan tells a other story. 4 man over an open field take out a HMG position and loose only one man. Lucky bastards and poor MG crew. FOW isn´t cinematic in no way. that´s overhelmd some players, even younger players. Some of my friends would avaoid even a single casulty, but that doesn´t function. But the intention to archive this goal can be driven this players to choose such "tactics" Hedges agains Tanks. That´s realy hard and not gentelman like. I am realy sorry to hear such things. I think I even dont play FOW with these guy´s...anymore

I think it´s could be the ralism of the game. Often only tactics from real life funktion. You can´t charge over open ground against a HMG Platoon. didn´t you pin them they kill you. Dramatic, simple, stupid. Save private james ryan tells a other story. 4 man over an open field take out a HMG position and loose only one man. Lucky bastards and poor MG crew. FOW isn´t cinematic in no way. that´s overhelmd some players, even younger players. Some of my friends would avaoid even a single casulty, but that doesn´t function. But the intention to archive this goal can be driven this players to choose such "tactics" Hedges agains Tanks. That´s realy hard and not gentelman like. I am realy sorry to hear such things. I think I even dont play FOW with these guy´s...anymore

Please give me an example, so I can unterstood what it is. In the last few post I read often Powergaming is alive and well in flames but no one post a sample. And please try it with my definition of powergaming. And yes your example from the first edition is powergaming for me. LOS literal means if I can see even the smallest thing, but for me I never came on the idear to shot at a barel of the gun or a mudgard. Thats fubar... :thumpdown Can you do it for the second edition? Yhea for your (and of course James) discription of your players it sucks and I fully agree with your statemant. Such behavor kills every game.

@ AkumaKaze What you discribe isn´t realy powergaming for me. You discribe players who know their army´s the first can loose the second can not. I think Powergaming need a additional component, the use of broken rules or the stictly opportunistic interpretation of rules, even when the effect is crazy. the "bag-o-rat´s" fighter for example its such a powergamer (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Bag_of_rats). At your definition I think all "veteran" FOW player are Powergamer, because they know their army´s and know the weak´s of the opposing force very well. But could be powergaming with my definiton get possible at FOW!? I think over and over again and I didn´t find where a player can get an advantage by broken rules or frong interpretation of rules!?

Sorry, but I don´t realy understand your question. Did you mean the Army examples from the posts didn´t exist or did you mean this Army examples never meet on the Battlefield!?

okay that´s bad but have your player even a small chance with this race of arms. I play germans (mid and latewar all Companies) and Canadian infantery and tanks so I have two very different army´s and see both sides. If player A take Shermans I would say the best he can ever do. Cheap, universal, fast, enought punch to deal with all enemy tanks (right not at the front Armor, but every side Armor can be penetrate by shermans). As an American player in Latewar he should also bring 76mm Shermans and as Canadian/British player he should bring Fireflys. These two sorts of Tanks can outgunned all German Tanks up to the Panther. And even the King Tiger with only a side Armor of 8 have it´s problems with AT 12/13. But like Malifaux at FOW Kill the enemy means nothing archiv your Goals and hold your Objectives means all. And with this in the mind the race of arms are obsolet Late war played arround 1750 Points for this a britisch player can field: HQ 4 Shermans 1CP. 3 Shermans + 1 Firefly 2CP. 3 Shermans + 1 Firefly 3CP. 3 Shermans + 1 Firefly Recon. 4 Honey Stuart Priority Air Support form Typhoons (Tankkiller without match) AOP (Air Observation Post) 8 Gun Battery 25Pounder 20 Tanks + Air Support + Artillery. With the Typhoons and the AOP you can Hit the enemy at the whole table, no chance for escape. The whole Army are highly mobile, have a high ammount of Firepower up to 40 Attacks a round with only the Tanks and the enemy have to take out 3 whole platoons befor you have to check your moral. With the Artillery you can Hide your force behind a constant smoke screen and the enemy must move to can shoot at you. That effective halfs their Attacks. As next with britisch special rules (and even you are the attacker) you can chose the night fight. The fist 3 rounds the range of the arms is max. 24" so you cut of the sharp Spearpoint of your Enemy until you reach a distanc where you even kann hurt them. Pretty cool I think. Now we see what the race of arms bring to the Player B. He choose Tiger (Heer not SS in my example) HQ 1 Tiger 1. CP 4 Tiger 2. CP 2 Tiger Support 2 Hetzer 2 SdKfz 7/1 (Quad 2m AA) 1780 Points with only 9 Tanks, all can be harmed by the whol bunch of the 20 Tanks from above...no Artillery, no Airsupport. Massiv, at it´s best 25 Attacks when you roll nice for the tigerskills, you didnt then your Attacks drop to 18, but you must move every round with your whole force to archive your goals. that drops your Attacks to 9. You only move 8", with luck 12" a round, the table size ist 5´x7´ so you must move fast and every turn, you can´t sit arround and snipe out enemy tanks with your range and Firepower. And another weak point the Tiger Gun is pretty good but at ranges over 15" even the cheap sherman can save, so not even every hit would be a kill. With King Tigers it´s grow only worser and worser. You get Hq 1 King Tiger 1. CP 2 King Tiger 2. CP 2 King Tiger 1730 Points no left for support or Antiaircraft or anything else. The same weak points as the Tiger Army from above. But only one BIG positiv point. No enemy tank can hurt you from the front...but hey with 16 Tanks I easylie can flank only 5 Tanks they cant hide their side or back. (the Stuart are bad even against the side (FP 7 against Armor 8 nooot goood). But They take the Target, the Shermans play with the cats Next, ther arent points for Antiaircraft protection, you are a prey for the typhon that they love. With the rockets you attack the top Armor 2+1D6 against AT 6 a good chance to hurt this monster. And with priority Air Support the enemy have every round a good chance to call in some Fire from the sky. At next the 25pound guns, when they dont fire smoke they cann wrench the blood out ouf your tanks. With the AOP you cant hide the tanks, every single spot an the battlefield can be shoot at. The only rescue are a tunnel...but ther your 5 tanks are neutralized, mission accomplished I like to say. With this small Army and the goal not to kill the enemy, but to take points your chance´s vanish with every model you can´t set on the table. But now I understand your problem, with other players who didn´t understand the difference between tactic and killing with the biggest gun you can choose the idear behind FOW is lost and the fun would be broken. Somtimes one step back is one to the front. Tigers are a good support but not as a whole body of the army. there they only can fulify a very small ammount of missions, and the most end up with outnumberd, encicled Tigers ;( that´s hurt me, I love these cats´s but they dont worth it´s points. Typical german megalomania without tactical worthnes, but realy expensive ;(

In the other thread it goes too off topic to discuss this. But I am realy interesst in your opinion. At first a few qoutes to the topic. from PicklsGrr and one from James My statment was Flames of War and Powergaming exclude each other. Befor the discussion starts, in my opinion Powergaming is: To abuse rules or broken rules to negate weaken or to get a advantage over other player. The Brumbär Assault Gun is a good example for that. Yes he have a high front armor and yes only a few guns can penetrate them. But his weakens exceed his streangeths and he can easylie beeten by any other tank. He is outgunned, outnoumberd and outmanouverd. He never get in the range to play his strang against other tanks. His disign is to unburry infantery and scatter them to pieces. That can he do very well but in no way is he gamedeciding or overpowert or can be used for Powergaming. I think too he can be choosen in Midwar ranges (but I havend the East Front book, maybe there). In Late war (period at 1944+) his frontarmor means nothing and M4A1 76mm Shermans and Fireflys can easylie penetrate them. At ranges the Brumbär cant shot back.

LOL I need a green card. 240$ are curent only 170,00 €. For the whole Guild range I have to pay 271,47 Euro / 380 $ argh... But right it goes offtopic..

@ Buhallin That arent empty numbers!? I have to pay this €€€ for the minis. I agree that malifaux isn´t balanced with even one crew, than it´s against the game mechanic. Would I have three crews from three different fractions I have to pay the bills. And the one army thing didn´t realy work. In other games I can play with one army. At malifaux, for the same game effect I need a wider range of crews. But without this game mechanic I think Wyrd are a very bad company and wouldn´t do it for long. They would sell minis and that is okay...and for that the game mechanic is good, works with the selling strategy from the company

I would love to play Free Masons Crew. A time manipulating crew who reactivate their own minions and slow the enemy, change activation orders and Ini. The Grand Master of the Lodge is the Master and his totem is a big "Apparatus Tempus" with 13th Digits and a big pendulum. As a henchman the crew have Ripper Jack...a desperate serial from behind the breach. No one knows why he serve the Lodge but he does. I dont realy know for what fraction this crew can be but I tend to guild or arcanist.

With only the starter box it´s isn´t a all around crew. I have six minis but two are insicnificant. The box arround Criid have five minis and all count. To play strategies where you need "...more than..." minis then your enemy I have to go to confront the crew and move on the weak side of the shogirls. That and the couterspells hurt me a lot in the first games. Now I have a Gunslinger, Johan, Corypheén ...but since that I only played once and a shared "Treasure Hunt" isn´t realy a challenge for the miep miep showgirls I don´t think so. It´s a diffents between balance and equal opportunities. The first is a pro for all games, the second one make it boring. Powergaming and FoW both excludes each other... The Boxes coast between 28,00 Euro to 45,00 Euro then I need up to 3 Minis per crew to round it up. We say for me in germany, avarage cost of 8,00 Euro per mini are another 24,00 Euro per crew. than one big mini (only for fun) Nekima would be 30,00 Euro. So I have a avarge cost per crew from 82,00 Euro to 99,00 Euro´s. That, for only three crews I spend for my small second game 246,00 Euro to 297,00 Euro. For that money I can buy a single Army in every system, even for high prices GW ranges. I think that isn´t realy cheap for a second game over all.

Yes that´s it. I think, may I play malifaux the next year and buy one crew after another, then more and more I think malifaux is balanced. But at the point where I reduced to one crew once again the first feeling comes again. Malifaux isn´t a bad game over all. But it´s have a weak point, the begining and the time where you are reduced to one crew or master. Malifaux may work very well when you have the choice between your crews and you can choose the crew wich you think are perfect for the tactic. When not, it came to missmatches and all your skill can´t help you, because your crew can´t implement your choosen action.

I didn´t compare Malifaux with 40k / fantasy / or LoR. All this GW games aren´t realy tactical. My favorit game is Flames of war and even there kills means nothing get your target means all. I can win the battle without take a single enemy platoon out as long as I hold my objective and deny the enemy do the same with their. So the Malifaux style of game looks good for me. Some friends invite me to some Hordes games but after 5 matches it would be boring. Everytime the Armys clash at the middle of the map an then the one with the better combo win. I ask, didn´t you play any mission...every time you hunt down the enemy Master!?? They looked infidel MISSIONS??? So, the Tactics and Shemes of Malifaux are a good way to balance the game, at a fist look. At a second one it´s start be the same as above. With only a few models or crews some Tactics are very difficult to win other are to easy. Treasure Hunt with collette are a home run in the first two turns. Assasinate...a horror for the crew. Deliver a Message with the Dreamer easy. I hate to compare a game with another one, but I can´t explain the differents on an other way. At Flames of war each Nation and Unit have it´s strengthen and weaken and only the player and his tactics make the differents. Ther aren´t many matches that end with an draw. But all Armys and nation´s have the same chance to win every mission. At Malifaux you must have a Crew that can do the mission well. You must have to be flexible and a wide range of mini´s to reach the same chances like in other games. That´s the conclusion for me after a few month of playing malifaux. It´s would be not realy balanced until you reach this break even point, where you can place a wide range of crews and miniatures.

My friend and I startet a couple of month ago with malifaux. So I am a realy noob. My first crew was the showgirls box, my friend startet with Sonnia Criid. The first games suck...cast a spell...for nothing, Sonnia negates and so on, it starts to get frustrating. Then we buy our next crews, Dreamer and Nico. That works better, but our reason to buy Malifaux as a second game was broken. The idea behind, cheap game with a few minis fails. You must have a big range of minis to deal with the other crews and the different tactics. In Malifaux I cant say "I am a arcanist player" I must say "I am a arcanist player when the tactic worth it" thats a real big different to other games. That makes to feel the game imbalanced some times. For me the frustrating thing in malifaux are these "anti" crews from the Guild. Very cheap minis with the sideefect, that they negate the things that defined the opposing crews. Magic/Melee/Summon Undead. That realy makes the game frustrating. Okay, it can be only to me, I am new and I am more a wargames player (Flames of war) then skirmish fantasy games. But Malifaux its real different to other tabletop. Sometimes inovativ (Cards / no Dice) sometimes "imbalanced" when you have only a small or only one crew with never can handle every tactic or opposing crews.

I will try a second Lelu next time. I choose this mini http://www.cadwallon.de/shop/images/35394a.jpg Horns and the tail would be made from green stuff (I hope so). And this modell for a second Lilitu http://www.morgenwelt.org/shop/images/21686l.jpg There I haven´t much to do, it always use a Chain I think with the right paintjob it could work...

The Doppelganger Suicide Attack is still in my Mind. Combo: 1st Round: Doppelganger mimic Ht 1 from a Sticht Together, Stitch Together Buried the now Ht 1 Doppelganger, and be buried by the Dreamer I learn from the very nice "Dreamer tactical" that buried Models are not in the game at the rounds end and so the Stitch Together didn´t unburie the Doppelganger. Now a Daydream Floats in the middle of the Perdita´s Crew. Get killed and release the buried Stitch together, this model does waht it can to warm up the Perdita Crew and yes he also would be killed. He comes back, but before the Doppelganger unburied 1" from the killed Stitch. The Stitch ractivate, hopfully does more damage and then the Sucide Doppelganger mimic "BOOM!" and "Take Ya With Me!" and try to smoke the rest Is that (i know very theoretical) a legal combo!?

Oh yessss Thx for that @karn987 and mythicFox, it sounds good for me!! I order the Daydreams allready, but I won´t get them before the Game so I have to proxy them.

My next Match with the dreamer comes up against Perdita and their crew. It´s my first game against her and so I am a little bit afraid by her companion Talant and the range attack abilities. My Dreamer Crew haven´t any hard hitting range attack´s. It woult be a 35 SS Game At first the Crew´s: Perdita and full family with two witchling stalker. I have only a small amount of minis to bolster my crew: Dreamer/LCB, Lelu, Lilitu, 1x Teddy, Coppellius, 2x Stichis, 1x Doppelganger... I didn´t know the strategy and shemes. So I need basicaly tricks to deal with Perdita and his crew. I think the Guild player would mob their crew up. The stalkers will guard Perdita and help her with disrupt magic / or dispell magic. The entire rest of the crew should stand nearby. But not Nino, he function as a sniper from behind. My first idea was this. Dreamer goes in and release a Doppelganger, the Doppelganger mimic from Papa Loco "BOOM" and the Spell "Take Ya With Me!" what he cast first. Hopfully 6 damage on the stalker, for Perdita and every crewmember that I can reach. Now at least one Stalker goes off and inflict two damage at the Dopelganger, and yes he taks two more wounds and "Boom" more damage with no resistance. The pretty thing is, The Dreamer ignors the Damage caused by the spell, boom, and Immolating Demise () But the ca of the Doppelganger isn´t realy high, so the chance to win the Df Duell also isn´t realy high. And then at least I notice the Doppelganger isn´t a nightmare ;( Now I realy need help because my concept didn´t work *gg* Thx for every reply

could be the wrong thread, but I need help with a 35SS dreamer list / strategy against the Ortega Family Crew: Perdita and full family with two witchling stalker. I have only a small amount of minis to bolster my crew: Dreamer/LCB, Lelu, Lilitu, 1x Teddy, Coppellius, 2x Stichis, 1x Doppelgaenger...