sephiroa

In many games and many genres - not just this one - the issue is always raised of competitive play vs casual play, and the answer is always the same. Friendly players notice balance issues less, or care about them less; but they're either happy or ambivalent when said issues are fixed. So at worst, changes to improve high level play make no difference to casual players. At best, you make them happy too. In both cases, you make competitive players happy. So it's good all round.

that's not completely right, the first time my brother played with his collidi crew and showed his stitched togethers, i thought they where to strong for only 5ss, same as the fact that collidi is a henchman 7.

they could change it yess, but changes aren't always better, and i think that there will always be someone who isn't happy whith some part of the game, especially a game like this.

Im pretty sure that was aimed at buhallin, not you. the comment aimed at you was from other people, multiple other people, because you suggested that calmdown hates or even dislikes the game, when he has at multiple times stated that he really really likes the game. perhaps to the point that when he sees issues that are broken he gets furiously angry when people try to refute them with circular logic and nonsensical arguements. People also tend to pick on one small mistake in a post and ignore the rest of the entirely valid points.

I know his pain.

i know i said hate or dislike, but that's what it sounds like,

and i know i was harsh when i said that (mind you is just woke up when i wrote that,,)

once again, I apologise to calmdown for insulting him or whatsoever,

circular logic, if it was, it wasn't from me, and to get angry at evryone just because only 1 man makes him angry, then he needs to get his temper under control,

if you want to have a debate abut something, and he gets angry at me because buhallin says something wrong, does that seems right?

You're correct.

At what point in this discussion did you acknowledge that any of the multiple people who think that there is an issue, may be right?

Or does this respect only apply to you?

isn't that what is was doing from the beginning? and i said that multiple times that i respect your opinion, even though i do not agree with it at some points.

Interesting. That certainly changes things a bit and makes me feel a bit better about facing them. Still OTT though.

doing minimum 3 damage with a (1) action, is just to strong,

2/3/5 would be normal, and since neverborn can but 3 of them in a single scrap, and its not a so it can be done in melee

That's interesting. The wording for the ability is a bit misleading in that case.

that's what they meant with, can be cheated, it counts as a normal damge flip and can be cheated, it doens't mean you can ALWAYS cheat

With the stitched would it make it less overpowered if Gamble your life was a zero action ?

maybe it would, because its possible for them to do GyL twice in an activation, and when they die, 4 times, no model survives that with their 8wp, (execpt immune to influence models)

Nekima is pretty terrible anyway. Even with irresistible she dies very easily. One of those models that looks great on paper but in practise you soon realise that she isn't all that.

Plus the sculpt itself is a nightmare. Such a small thin connection to the base of such a big model. Mine is currently bent 90% at her shin and I can't really be bothered to fix her again

agreed,

but nekima isn't that bad, anoyying buffer and heavy hitter, only a little to much ss cost i think 11 or 12 was enough, i can do more with my snow storm than with nekima.

the model,, wel, it's a nightmare indeed, i found a way to fix that tough

1. Alps arent a problem in and of themselves, theyre a problem because of the way they stack. They hand out AE slow, and they have no real positional issues due to the Dreamer to offset their small range. The real way to solve the Alp Bomb is to stop Feed on Dreams stacking. Simple.

2. I dont really see Lillitu's double take as being a problem; I think the major problem is that she does too much for a 7 point model. Double Take AND Casting Expert AND a solid melee statline AND float AND 12 wp to attack her AND all of her other triggers and summoning etc...too much. I think she needs to go up to 8 points, and be toned down a little, or be toned down a lot. She puts support models from every faction to shame.

3. The problem with Stitched Together is not Does Not Die (although the many interactions in this game that allow you to bypass strat/scheme requirements - including this one, drain souls, saccing your own models, etc - do need to be removed). The problem with it is that it does too much for a 5 point mode. Its damage potential with GyL is huge AND always cheatable - and the fact that the opponent can win is bare compensation when the choice to activate it is yours meaning you will always do it in an advantageous position (and at worst...kill yourself and reactivate). Gambler is also ridiculous; hand control/card draw abilities seem to be very undercosted in general by Wyrd, and this one is no exception. I think GyL needs its damage toned down to realistic 5-point model levels, and I think Gambler needs to be a real gamble not "I discard an Ace to activate this". Maybe have a minimum card number limit on it, something. All in all, like Lillitu, Stitched is simply far too cheap for what it does.

4. Yep, that's all Kidnap needs. Must be announced.

5. I agree.

i have to agree with that, especially with the stitched, give them +2 wp from puppet master when playing collidi, they have 8wp, even most master cannot do nothing against that, and to have to use ss to resist it because of that insane damage flip, and for just a 5ss model, is way over the top. and the does not die ability indeed need some tweaking

See, I've seen this said about every faction at one point in time. Maybe not the exact same words, but the same jist of "They are to powerful". The Neverborn really aren't, and I'm not saying this because I play them. I play every faction right now and I can take down a Neverborn player just as well as a Guild, Resser, etc. It's about perception and learning how to handle the crews. The Neverborn can be very complex or very straightforward.

But playing against them is almost always a hard game because they do something wonderful... they make you think. You can't just draw your weapons and go at them, you have to be careful and cautious and that is what the faction is about. But at the same time, they have to do the same thing in reverse. Many of their models require a lot of care when using or they become useless or die extremely easily. I've always said Nightmares are Glass cannons and with the exception of Teddy, they really are. What makes the Dreamer hard to play is learning how to work your bury and unbury mechanics in timing with your opponent to get their weak points. The number of times I've seen a Dreamer crew disintigrate because the player dropped at the wrong time is rather high.

But let me put it this way, I remember when Nico was the hot $$$$$$$$ around. I remember trying to deal with a virtually never ending army of Punk Zombies and hating every minute of it. I remember Lady J vs Lilith being the culimation of many games and watching Lilith's head fly off her shoulders do to reposte. I remember ( and still see) Leveticus walk down the field clearing out my models like they were nothing. It's all about learning your crew and learning your opponents. This change as the game progresses and the key word in all of this is "perception".

same what I'm saying all this time, playing against lists that require you to think is part of the game, or with them, Marcus, probably one of the weakest masters, but if you know how to use him, probably one of the annoying masters in the game,

hit nekima with a (0) tiger strike, make her a beast, and use alfa and ss it high so she cannot resist it.

that's with every master/crew, if you know them, they are better then they look on paper, if you don't know them, you can lose so easy.

Maybe instead of trying to weaken Neverborn, Wyrd should strengthen other factions?

mayeb a little bit of both

instead of drasticly changing 1 of them, change a bit of all of them, so the changes arn't that big, but have the same impact as if you changed 1 faction completely, changing 1 faction this big would have a negative effect on al the neverborn players, but change evrything a bit, and no big problems will occur

I'm just gonna repeat what's been mentioned above,

The books barely hit the shelf (still waiting for mine in the UK) and there's allready theory faux bashing, perhaps the question is not, 'why does crew a have this? its soo op' but more 'how do I manoeuvre this to my advantage?'

If you want an auto win list, there's some out there, but if the cards aren't with you/you play a rigid list of tactics there will Allways be something to do you..

Besides 1 model does not a crew make..

SS!

there are some "auto" win crews, they are just cheesy, but not unbeatable

and like you said, you need a bit of luck and skill,

i can give my brother (guild player) a cheesy neverborn list, and he will lose with relative ease against me with a normal rasputina crew.

that's what i'm saying from the beginning.

1 model doesn't make a crew, but can make the difference

He has no reason to stop his stance merely because some people disagree with him, or don't want to hear what he has to say.

i disagree with him, at some point, i agree with him at some point,

I'm willing to listen to everything he has to say. but in a debate your not going to insult people because they have an other opinion

Oh come the $$$$$$$$ on. This $$$$$$$$? Did you conveniently forget the part where he mentions all of this stems from a desire to improve a game that he enjoys? There's no hate, and posters should feel free to be vocal over the issues they perceive. That's how good games get better, honest criticism. Lord knows we have enough useless sycophants on this board already.

well you have honest criticism, and critisicm that keeps on going, wathever somebody else tells him.

I would like to say, that nobody who cares so much about whether the game is balanced could possibly hate it. He obviously enjoys the game and, I'm guessing, he also enjoys a good debate.

this is not a debate anymore,

i said hate because i couldn't thought of another word, maybe dislike would have been better

you know calmdown if the only thing you can do is "hate" Malifaux, and say it's broken or not working properly than why do you even bother in playing the game?

i already asked several people what they tought of your opinion, they thought it was weird for someone to have so much criticsm on a game and still play it, and every thing you mentioned, they tought differently,

its already 13h since i last saw your posts, and you are still syaing that Malifaux is a broken game with a completely overpowered faction who wins everything

This is what I hate most about the malifaux forums, you guys draw in on a single example so specifically to the ignorance of the overall issue.

who cares if the neverborn opponent is taking kirai, who cares if they are taking hamelin. Kidnap is basically a kill three model scheme, using your models, your opponents models, poison, anything. as long as they are off the table you get three points. Best of all, its one of the 2 schemes in the entire game that you can get 2 points without having to announce it at all (The other is thwart, which is IMO much harder to accomplish)

I would be ok with kidnap if it had the rider "this scheme must be announced" like EVERY OTHER SCHEME

Edit - Which is not even on the real issue. which is neverborn are significantly more powerful as a faction then any of the others.

i agree with the announce,

but like your edit said, we where talking about the faction, and not scheme's

And any one taking Grudge and announcing is out 2 points because as a ressur you sac your own models, denying the grudge and making a 35 ss list into a 40, 45 or 50ss list.

exactly

Well, like I've stated, I'm too new to judge much of anything. If any rewriting has to be done, Wyrd will be the ones to decide, my point is they haven't shown to fear doing stat changes and if Hatchedhead's post is as correct as it inspires me, doing a good rundown on a lot of book 2 stuff will help and if Marcus sucks as much as stated in here, a little butt slap up will be appreciated for him.

it's possible that they will do that, but I'm not sure.

He said if you dont think the game has issues your incredibly stupid. I think we can all agree the game has issues. Like the avatar marcus sculpt.

i know the game has issues, every game has, creating the perfect game? doesn't exist,

he also said that i have a serious lack of knowledge of the game,

Take your pick of:

I'm a game designer, obviously bad and easily fixable game design annoys me

I'm passionate about games I love, and wish the game was better so I could enjoy playing it more

I'm a competitive gamer and want to enjoy this game competitively, but I hate the fact that to do so I have to play the same broken faction as everybody else

This is a discussion forum, and I enjoy a good discussion on a relevant topic instead of the usual "here's some fan-made models I designed" inane rubbish

I find the fact that some people are so easily able to dismiss obvious imbalance amusing and worth discussing

well, do you have your 3th book? maybe that will be one of the changes you talk about

I'm passionate as well about games, but making the game better? how? you tell me, and not with make neverborn weaker.

I'm a competitive gamer as well, I win with my rasputina crew, agains realy cheesy and competetive lists, not always, but whats the fun in ALWAYS winning,

this is a discussion forum, not a forum to attack other people. and i love a good discussion, if I can talk to someone with an open mind, to listen to my opinion, without making such a fuss

you know i would love to have this discussion with you on a different chat, because right now we are anoying other people,

I'm too much of a noob in the game to actually judge any of this and my main crew is one of the power masters (Kirai) from what I'm reading, but I'd say that a rebalancing with V2 cards would be enough and maybe do a V3 just purely to buff some of the more despised masters. I've never played Marcus, but there has to be a reason why he is the butt of most jokes.

problem with that is that evrything has to be rewritten, just because we have a small discussion here?

I didnt say I was completely right, nor did I insult anyone past saying that ignoring hard fact is idiotic.

I said that denying the fact that the game has very blatant balance issues is incredibly stupid.

They're very different things.

aah, but i told you that i know neverborn are slightly better.

you didn't try to listen to something we had to say, you directly attacked our opinion, without an open mind to listen.

calmdown, i know you are right about the neverborn part, some are stronger than any other, but why are you so fixed on this? does it matter? you ALWAYS will have stronger crews/armies, as i already said that.

I apologize if i insulted you, or made you feel bad or unhappy in any other way, (and let's remind you that the first thing you said to me was that i had a lack of knowledge of the game)

dolomyte, isn't that what I'm trying to say from the beginning of this discussion?

and I won't say that i didn't attack calmdown personally, what i can say is that i did that to defend myself. i told him from the start that this won't have to get personal, and he was to stubborn to listen, same as in the discussion.

i don't like fighting discussions, but some people just don't know how to listen to other people's opinion.

I think his point was that those were coming from the same side of the debate. Ratty's circular logic is probably the biggest target.

well ratty's comment said that we both are right and wrong,

I agreed with ratty,

calmdown kept saying he was right, and only he

@ prodigal punk: somebody said that a balanced game gives more people in playing, and gave GW example that he was wrong. I'm not offended i know what you where talking about problem is that atm neverborn has a slightly better winning factor, and it seems some people don't like that

@ buhallin: calmdown indeed did that, and i have to agree with you that he indeed attacks us, we are merely defending our opinion and he calls us idiots (not with these words)