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Yea, Guy in Suit deserves credit for that little simple strategy. As far as spirit of the game vs. cheating goes... My general rule of thumb would be: If it's a non-physical way of counting cards / tracking numbers or suits, that's fine. That's just a mastery of tactical skill and probability laws. If a player uses a method of counting that physically impacts the game in anyway, such as recording flips, using a calculator/phone/whatever, that's cheating. Even further on the spectrum would be marking cards. That would in NO WAY be a respectable tactic. Not only would I be disinclined to play against a person that marked their cards, I would recommend that others do not play them as well. as far as physical tools being the same as a ruler? No. Just no. Look at it this way. The game GIVES you a ruler. But you're not even allowed to use it until you've already declared what you're doing. One more thing: Wearing a chicken on your head aside, there ARE many things that don't explicitly appear in the rulebook. For these items, do your best to make a gentlemen's agreement about them. "The rules don't say I CAN'T do it," is never a valid argument in my opinion. BACK TO CARD COUNTING! Anyone else have any cool ideas?

My initial post was really just a bit of descriptive fluff to intro the thread. Believe it or not, I actually do know an advanced strategy or two --- I would agree. Once you start keeping tallies of every card you draw, you've crossed the line. I know the benefits of abusing the twists already. What I was really looking for in this thread was to see if anyone had any mental rhetorics that they found particularly effective at counting cards. For example: I've heard that if your looking for a certain suit, you could keep track of the cards you flip by using simple addition. Everytime you flip the suit you want: -3. When you flip one you don't want: +1. I'm told that when you get to about +6 or so, you'll have a 50% chance of flipping what you want.

There comes a time when one must step there game up to the next level. Performing basic strategies with your crews is one thing, but being able to predict what that crucial flip is going to be is another thing altogether. I'd like to hear from everyone what their card counting strategies are. Please post here if you have any good suggestions for others! --- If a thread like this already exists and I missed it, I apologize. If this ends up being useful enough to be stickied, that would be cool too

It's very simple math, Guy. ~26% of the deck is Tomes (assuming you would choose Tomes for the Red Joker's suit should you flip that). Rounding that off, you have about a 25% chance of flipping a Tome card. Since we're just running a simulation where we don't know (and thus cannot determine) the result of any card flipped from the deck, we can essentially disregard them (their impact on the final probabilities of this situation are minimal). Since the probability of flipping a card of a certain suit cannot be affected by previous events where the outcome is unknown (i.e. initiative, starting hand, etc.), we can simply say that every time you flip a card you have a 25% chance of it being a tome. You do however need to accumulate a certain value of Tomes or higher (six). Therefore you must flip any two Tomes with a combined value of 6 or more. (Some more complicated math determines that...) Flipping a 5 or higher is a 67% chance. Flipping the Ace to satisfy the remaining 1 point needed is a 25% chance. multiply the two and you get the 16.75% In short, I'm not talking counting cards at all. I'm talking about the straight probability of pulling this off on the first flip of any turn.

So I actually crunched some numbers on this ability. Given a fresh deck, a burned card for initiative, and a six card hand: The casting cost is such that you need at least 6[tomes] to get the spell off at minimum. To hit the trigger you need another tome (read: Ace[Tomes]). Therefore, to get the spell, and the trigger off at a minimum, you'll need to either flip or cheat in at least the 5[tomes], and soulstone out at least the Ace[tomes]. The probability that you flip a 5[tomes] or higher, or that you have a 5[tomes] or higher in your hand to cheat with is about 67%. Given the fact that Collette has a positive twist to all soulstone flips, the probability that your soulstone flips out a tome is increased above the normal rate (in actuality, the percentage doesn't change due to probability laws. Work with me here, people!) The probability that the soulstone flip turns up a tome is about 25%. Combined, the probability of getting these two events in a row comes out to about 16.75%. Which, for such a powerful trigger, is pretty high. This probability will obviously increase for each card you flip or draw throughout the turn that is NOT a tome. It will decrease every time you flip or draw a card that IS a tome. In this case, I would recommend not using her ability to sac a ss for two extra cards unless you really need the high initial tome in your hand to guarantee the cheat. The more cards left in your deck, the higher the chance that you'll be flipping a tome when you use the ss.

Yea, well put. Now we just need the new models to be released. And our next paychecks >_<

Would there be any reason to NOT run Cassandra? She's good, but expensive. If I were looking to substitute her for the Corys, perhaps? Corys + Showgirl + Mannequin would be 20ss. Johan could fit in that crew for 5 more... Thoughts?

Good to know! Thanks for the clarification!

Do you have a link to where they're discussing this?

My plan for the hanged in that scrap was to essentially create a bubble around Nic for protection while my other models played support, and created some corpse counters to turn into some faster moving undead and start grabbing some space on his side of the board. (two canine remains lose insignificant and can cover a good deal of ground.) I knew it would work pretty well, being as how I was familiar with Neverborn, I knew the models he was running had relatively low Wp and would be hard pressed to resist the Hanged's many Wp tests. Essentially, I put the Hanged in the two choke points that led to my side of the board, and everything almost everything that funneled through was unable to go any further. Nic only took one attack this way. Had the battle gone on longer, I surely would have drawn the crows necessary to reanimate some corpses, I feel.

Very well put, Q'iq'el. Thanks. I have a few more ideas on how to run lilith after some extensive searching of the boards and a few more battles. Next time I run her, I'm hoping things will be different.

I am aware of the Errata. But depressingly enough, I failed to draw a single crow into my hand all game. Not even a low one. Had I had even an Ace of Crows, rest assured I would have put it to use there.

Jack Daw can be hired by any faction since he is an Outcast. Has anyone thought to hire him along with Zorida? Zorida has to potential to make Jack Daw immortal! Zorida's Hex Could potentially remove this ability from Jack Daw for the rest of the game. Since this is the only ability that refers to a way to kill him, would he be immortal? The Oldest Magics simply states that he's immune to Wd except from certain sources. But since his Wd stat is "*", even if he does take damage, he won't dIe, right? Right? *crosses fingers* Anyone want to chime in here? I hope this isn't a re-post.

My latest game was a matchup of Nicodem vs. Zorida. My list: Nicodem (3ss) The Hanged x2 (16) Mortimer (7) Vulture (2) My Schemes: Bodyguard (Nicodem, Announced) Opponent List: Zorida (5ss) Silurid x3 (15) Young Nephilim (6) Terror Tot Nephilim (3) Soul Stone Cache (1) Opponent Schemes: Reclaim Malifaux (Unannounced) Strategy: Shared Plant Evidence Area: Guild Library Special Terrain: Piles of Tomes ([1] interract gives a model varying effects based on what suit they flip) Report: Turn 1: Initiative first turn went to me. I mostly played, "set-up" during turn one. I advanced with my Hanged (In order to receive advances by flying/sprinting nephilim, and leaping silurids that were attacking from two sides of the board), moved Nic and the Vulture into supportive positions, and tried digging up corpse counters with Morty, which failed. For his part, my opponent started moving across the board as fast as possible, tagging terrain for his hidden scheme as he went. As most of my crews ARE Neverborn, I knew what he was up to right away. But I was in no rush to stop him. You'll see why in a moment. Turn 2: Initiative goes to my opponent. His three silurids leap to my side of the board. Two acting simultaneously, the third coming in one activation later. His first two silurids (A and attacked Nic and Hanged A respectively. The silurid on Nic hit all his triggers, etc. Nic nearly took 9 damage (from the red joker on a damage flip), before hard to wound caused an additional flip and brought the damage on his teeth strike down. Spending a soulstone to block some of the damage reduced the punishment to 4 wounds. Between the silurids acting, Hanged A charged Silurid A (through Silurid B which my opponent wasn't happy about). Finally, Silurid C comes in and is forced to attack Hanged A (who is now standing between Silurid C and Nic). The end result of this whole exchange is that Silurid A is terrified, Silurid B is Horrified, Silurid C is Terrified, and Hanged A has Smell Fear active, with Nic yet to act. Meanwhile on the other side of the board, Zorida is now on my side of the board thanks to Raven, and has begun tagging terrain for Plant Evidence. But nearby Hanged B in Melee range with her has prevented her from going anywhere else. At this point, I had a bit of luck. I activated the Vulture, and cast Decay on the Silurid that was pinning Nic down. Needed to blow a soulstone on it, but it was worth it. Thanks to being Horrified by Hanged A, Silurid A had a low resist flip. The resulting Blast not only killed Silurid A, but healed both Hanged A and Nic for 2 Wd! My opponent then brought his Young Neph and Terror Tot to bear and pinned down both Morty and the Vulture. I activate Nic, pick up the nearby Corpse counter from Silurid A, during a Wk action, and fail a few attempts to animate it. So I just Bolstered Undead, and passed turn. Turn three: Here's where the battle ends. Hanged A has single handedly pinned down/killed the remaining silurids with his activation, Morty is taking heavy punishment from a Young Neph and a Tot, (1 wd remaining by the time he activates and regens to 2). Zorida keeps sticking Hanged B with pins, and Obeying the Young Neph for accelerated damage on Morty. Things were looking bad when Morty's activation failed yet again to produce a single corpse counter, and missed a shovel strike on the Young Neph. Feeling in a Bind, I companioned Nic to try and stem the flow of blood. Another Wk action puts Nic within LOS of the Young/Tot/Morty/Vulture melee. He Arises his corpse counter to use as a potential shield since he is now essentially on the front lines. Then he casts Decay on the tot. The resulting severe damage kills not only the Tot, but the Young Neph and Morty (a necessary sacrifice). Generating a total of 4 corpse counters mere inches from Zorida and Hanged B and freeing up the Vulture to do it's thing. Facing down a growing army of undead with only his Master, my opponent threw in the towel. This was my second time running Nic. But only my first time running him in a real game. During my first run with him, we realized that a large rules snafu caused the scrap to swing heavily in my favor and scraped the scrap on turn 2. So this really was my first full game running Nic. As always, thoughts/opinions/questions/comments on my posts are welcome.

While Growing is now actually a viable tactic (when it was god awful before), I still think the other tactics for Lilith lists are going to be more effective. There are too many ways for your opponent to screw with your setup when it takes your whole crew's first turn just to start growing (not to mention most likely much of your control hand). I'm still inclined to use transposition, and the new Lilitu to turn tots into Lelus. Even if it takes a few turns, Once you get a few Lelu's out, Lilitu will regen the damage she suffers by being without him in no time.

To be honest, that was my immediate thought about Teddy in a Lilith crew. No Transposition? Screw that, haha.

A friend of mine plays with the puppet deck, and I must say, I am not inclined to purchase one. From across the table its a bear to try and read what numbers he's showing, let alone the suit. The art is nice, but if I can't read it, that tends to be a deal breaker.

It deserves noting that timing is key in the strategy that I posted above. I would avoid companioning your models as much as possible through the first turn. You need to let your opponent "set up" and expend as many activations as possible before you drop nekima in his midst so he can't fight back.

I just got the new book and have been looking it over. I have to say that I'm really looking forward to being able to get my hands on some of these new nephs. I'll need to pickup at least one BBS, Lelu, Liltu, and Nekima for what I've got planned. I'd like to point out, Souleater, that the first list you named was 33ss, while your second was 31ss. Was this intentional? As far as future lists go, I evision something like the following: Lilith Terror Tot (3) Liltu (7) Nekima (13) Cherub (2) That's just a rough draft of a 25ss list I think might work. My first turn's activation might look something like (A) sprinting with the tot, (B)Transposing Lilith and the Tot w/Cherub © Transposing Nekima and an enemy model that gets too close w/Lilith. (Note: Don't try this on a Master, unless you've got a really high mask AND are willing to soul stone it, they can just get out of it too easy. Instead, try it on something reasonably valuable, yet guaranteed to work because they won't want to cheat on it, etc.) From there, you have Nekima in their face, and Lilith close by to charge in with the rest of her activation. You also have a spent tot, cherub, and Liltu behind your own lines next to one of their models. From there I would: (D) Use Nekima to eat some faces, and (E) Use your Liltu to sac the tot and summon their partner. You now have the rest of Liltu's activation, and a full activation with Lelu to gobble up the model you've called into your midst. So while your opponent is distracted by your two most powerful melee model's up in their face, You've got plenty of time to take out one of their number behind your own lines, and subsequently advance with your Lelu/Liltu pair. I threw this strategy together in only a few minute based on a quick glance at the new nephilim, and the above "face killing list" posted by karn987. For games larger than 25ss, think about leaving Lilith with a cache of at least 6 stones so that she can survive being on the front lines. You may also want to expand your list to include either a Black Blood Shaman for support, or a Young Nephilim to be matured ASAP, and sent in/ Transposed into the fight to support Nekima. Comments/Questions?

Satyr speaks truth. He started with three models on the field, and suddenly after all of my models had activated there were somehow like 16 on the field. I never saw it coming.

While giving the Mature Nephilim Fast would be pretty destructive, it seems like it's putting all of your eggs in one basket. Which, if I may note, has not been working for me against any of the crews that Satyr runs. Every time I try to mount an offensive by gathering troops under cover or some such, he manages to preempt it with an almost total counter.

Hi guys, I feel like I should post here seeing as how I am the opponent in question that Satyrwyld is talking about. I'll start by answering a few of the bigger comments and questions. The issue here is not that I'm getting discouraged. At all. Knowing that I keep getting my ass kicked by Satyr is really given me renewed interest in this game. (I won every other game I ever played against the rest of my friends just by rushing the field with Lilith). Going against the other neverborn masters, however has been quite difficult. Pandora has made me learn to respect the activation order, put simply, (now if I can just get it right...). But my biggest problem so far is that while I know how to run Lilith to a T (I feel I can say this after about 10 games with her, and pouring over her tactics section on these boards), I don't have the abilities of the other masters memorized. Therefore, when Lord Chompybits' Dreamer decided to summon no less than 4 alps (which soon became 7 alps) and two other nightmares right next to most of my important units AFTER all of my units had activated, well... you do the math (I shake my fist at Satyr for manipulating the Poltergeist's Persistent Distraction to allow the Dreamer to activate last out of all of the 12 or so units on the field). As one final note, I haven't looked at most of the stuff in the new book because I don't own it yet. I in fact just ordered my copy on Amazon earlier today. But I do plan to use plenty of the new stuff to beef up her lists since Satyr has repeatedly mentioned that the new book has given her some pretty powerful supplements (now if I could only actually find those models for sale). So in short, what I'm really looking for here is less of a, "How to play lilith," and more of a, "What to do/not do against Pandora/Chompybits/Colette, etc." Thanks in advance, -Q

Not that I don't enjoy discussing all elements of this game, but I'm going to have to put a stop to the discussion about painting requirements here. This is only to make sure the thread stays on the topic it is supposed to: The Review. If you want to discuss purposes and/or opinions of/about painting miniatures, you can always PM me, and even link me to a new thread about it. But I feel like it's a minor part of the game that I've done a review on, and I'd rather it not entirely hijack this thread. Again, any comments or questions about the review are always welcome. -Q

Brilliant. I never thought of having one of the nephs kill another one in order to drain blood. Thumbs up. So with everything I've read, it seems I wasn't wrong in assuming that most Lilith strategy revolves around, "zerg rush."

Thanks again for all the input you've given. It saddens me to hear that major tournaments will have a painting requirement. In my mind, all that really does is turn off casual players. Because if you have the minis, what does it matter what color they are? What if I like metal colored things? What if I want to run "Team Gunmetal Grey"? Thanks goes to Endgame for the painting tips. I'll have to look into this, "quick shade dip".