Omenbringer

I would disagree LameO.

The Faction as a whole doesn't struggle for mobility aids, as you mentioned Iron Skeeters can perform that function as can the Piglets. Where we do suffer is in accurate long range shooting. This is where the Pigapult can and does fill a gap in the faction (yes, yes some of the LaCroix's could be considered to also do this but none are as capable as a Pigpult controlled by Som'er). Currently however its cost is prohibitive when employed in this role, so players are touting its Launch'n action as the superior benefit. I disagree as the downside is significant in comparison to the Iron Skeeters or Pig Ladders and Truffle Shuffle.

In regards to the original question, it really depends on the composition of the GG 2018 Strats and Schemes. If they are mobility heavily then it will have a place (though again I think the Iron Skeeters or Piglets are superior options in this regard). If they are killy" then it will have a place. If they are somewhere in between then it may not.

The Pigapult has always been expensive the rise in cost to Stuffed Piglets doesn't really affect it.

A suit switch for the trigger could work with the Lightning Bugs. That way Som'er would have to use Do It Like Dis! twice (once from a Skeeter) to ensure both the summon and the healing trigger. Increases the cost by 2 SS (Skeeter hire) and requires another control card for Do It Like Dis!

I do agree that Som'er shouldn't be messed with at all. He is one of our top-three competitive choices but he is far from OP'd or even a NPE.

38 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Not my community

As far as I remember the issue was also that healing is so easy with Slop Hauler and Bug (who is also undercosted according to some guys) that Somer's summoning is almost free. And once summoning is done Bug can do other tasks and Slop Hauler can support other models too.

This again sounds like people who have never actually piloted the Som'er summon factory and have only seen the perfect storm of its use. It isn't as simple as it looks even if your opponent patiently sits back and allows it to function at full capacity. The activation order alone screws most people.

As far as the Slop Haulers healing, well let's just say Som'er manages to summon a full compliment of 3 Bayou Gremlins in a single activation (that cost 9 SS for the 3 Bayou Gremlin's that are the targets, plus 2 SS for the Family Tree Upgrade, and another 5 SS for the Slop Haler, total of 16 SS, and the Bayou's can't activate until after both Som'er and the Slop Hauler have gone)...

• To make this work it will cost at least 1 card plus a 6+ card and Som'er's 0 Action to guaranty the required suit for Get Your Bro (Via Do It Like Dis!) ,3 cards with a value of 8+ to succeed with the summons, and then 4 cards of 6+ value to heal the injured to max wounds. You have also done nothing  else with your master (His entire activation was spent summoning and guarantying the suit), tied down the Slop Hauler (who can only do something else if he chooses to go Reckless a the cost of 1 Wound but has to remain close to Som'er to provide healing again next turn) and can really do nothing else with 2-3 of the Bayou Gremlin's because if they move outside of 4 inches from Som'er they can't be used for summoning next turn.

...that leaves 2 Bayou Gremlin's still at 2 Wds. The rest of the 4 Bayou Gremlin's will have between 2 and 4 wounds (Let's assume average flips which returns them to full wounds).

Which Bayou's does the player choose to leave in the Back Field? Does the player risk moving the wounded ones from the back field or use the healthy ones (for the moment anyway)?

Likely the player is going to choose to leave the wounded ones (who are also probably Slow due to summoning, why use Slow ones when you will want to run the healthy non-slow ones drunk and reckless so they are OP'd). So what happens now? Som'er has 2 injured Bayou Gremlin's near him that he hopes will heal before his next activation so he can summon off of them. He also likely has 3-4 "healthy" Bayou Gremlin's (that 4th one will be slowed due to summoning) primed to dash up field Drunk and Reckless. End result 4 Bayou Gremlin's upfield at half wounds or less (because of Drunk and Reckless usage otherwise the Bayou Gremlin's are crap right?), 2-3 in the backfield (near Som'er for next turns summoning, 2 of whom are likely to be at 2 Wounds).

Let's say your opponent doesn't or can't take advantage of the situation to kill your Bayou Gremlin's upfield. Next turn you run the summon engine again. Net result is not going to be the same. The Slop hauler now has to go before Som'er in order to heal those 2 injured Bayou Gremlin's in the back field that he will use to summon the next wave. If Som'er decides to summon a full compliment then he will have 6 Bayou Gremlin's in the back field that are all going to be at half wounds with no way to heal them until the next time the Slop Hauler can activate next turn. That also means that they can't go Drunk and Reckless because they won't have the wounds to live thru it.

We also still have the problem of healing those Bayou Gremlin's we ran upfield last turn who are likely injured from running Drunk and Reckless.

We could use those Lightning Bugs at a cost of 5 SS (So now the total is 21 SS to make this work because you are going to either two of them or a Slop hauler and a Lightning Bug to have any kind of board coverage) but of course to really maximize the healing we really want to use that neat little trigger on their Magic Blasty Stick. Let's assume they are in the 8 inch bubble for Som'er's Do It Like Dis! (to provide the   ) They still need to succeed with an attack to make it work. Do we target one of our Bayou Gremlins or an enemy model that happens to be within 3" of all the models that need healing? Targeting one of your Bayou Gremlins will result in it dying on any success (any damage flip bar the Black Joker from the Magic Blasty Stick kills a Bayou that went Drunk and Reckless before it can be healed from the trigger). Targeting an enemy model risks failure (so no healing) and requires favorable positioning of the enemy model to be sure to heal everyone that needs it. Again let's hope your opponent is obligingly positioning his models to aid the summon factory but not hamper it.

While a lot of this is theoretical "in a vacuum" example, it demonstrates the fragility of the Summon Factory even when everything goes right and how it just isn't sustainable long term without a lot of effort and costs (and even then there are diminishing returns). It also requires your opponent to be unable to dissect the support required to make it function. Protecting that key Slop Hauler is very difficult, particularly given the access to models that can engage it first turn From the Shadows. After that, you have to worry about protecting those squishy Bayou Gremlins that are required for Som'er to summon. This is not that easy once they have sustained the damage from summoning. Again From the Shadows deployment can easily dissect the required models though Lure can wreak havoc as well due to the tight positioning constraints. Lightning Bugs can somewhat replace the Slop Hauler's but they aren't that much more durable or easy to protect (and of course their healing isn't free either even with a "healthy" friendly target to trigger off of).

Now don't get me wrong, I do agree that the Lightning Bug's triggered healing could probably go from 2 to 1, but it doesn't come with out risks (using it could result in healing your opponents models as well).

Now a lot of this can catch a player off guard the first few times they see it, especially if the perfect storm of sequence, position, and card draws occur; however, once they have seen it, it doesn't tend to work anywhere near as well. That Slop Hauler (or Lightning Bugs) and injured Bayou's don't tend to last very long. My players have become fairly adept at removing the healers early, forcing me to transition to one of Som'er's other play styles mid game (this is why I really favor building a crew that can do this with minimal effort).

Not trying to sound condescending (though it's the internet so who knows how it will sound) but the Summon Factory is not a viable play style for more than a turn or two (and if it isn't running at "full power" then it is much less of an issue and even easier to deal with). Having run it for years now, it just really isn't a consistent path to victory, particularly when you consider that a third to almost half of your hiring points are spent just trying to give yourself the best chance of making it work (and hoping that those damn From the Shadows models don't show up to ruin your day).

Like I said, I can think of a lot of other summoners who are a significant;y larger problem than Som'er.

6 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

Malifaux cards are fairly cramped and there might not be space.

 

They do appear to be gaining more text with each new wave. The mind abhors empty space.

Thanks for the save again Math. Should have grabbed the book.

Wasn't Lazarus the only other model that had something similar?

3 hours ago, monkeyking68 said:

If I recall correctly, Burt was not able to be hired by Ten Thunders in ME1.

Well considering that the Ten Thunders (nor Gremlins for that matter) where a faction (Misaki and the Gremlins were under the auspices of the Outcast faction) you are correct. However, Burt was a Mercenary in 1st edition and is fairly similar to his current M2e incarnation.

We will just have to disagree on that one Mason. I think it makes more sense to encapsulate everything the action does and then (with a clear distinctive space between lines) explain the condition.

Oh and thank you for the confirmation.

I have wondered Mason, why not put the condition description at the end instead of the action text? Wouldn't that make it clearer?

Are you sure about that? Good to hear if so.

It isn't worded very well at all and I can see this one being asked about quite a bit either way.

Format wise they should put the description of gained conditions after all the other stuff. As is it just muddies things.

8 hours ago, daniello_s said:

The main argument I heard from this guy (who is I believe a friend of mine despite our differences in opinion) is that it doesn't cost Somer anything to summon them. Surely new models come up with 2 wounds and it damages other Bayou Gremlins of whom they are summoned of but with Slop Hauler around and Lighting Bug the cost is nothing compared to other summoners.

So the Slop Hauler and/ or Lightning Bugs are free to hire in your community? That is a cost.

Also as Math and Dogmantra state above, positioning is a major issue and Do It Like This has an opportunity cost as well. It isn't free in either action cost or card cost and the suit isn't always beneficial for the crew to have, particularly with those models that have to declare a trigger. Sure the Skeeters can spread it around as well but they aren't free to hire either. Also as Dogmantra states, activation order is almost everything in a Gremlin crew and very unforgiving if done out of sequence. Forcing Som'er and the Slop Hauler to go early is an opportunity cost.

I do agree with Math that the Lightning Bugs healing needs to be readdressed (while I don't think they should have it, the faction is designed around easy access to healing and the Slop Haulers just don't last).

Again, Gremlin's can look amazing when piloted well and everything falls into place (positioning, card draws, etc.) but against an opponent who knows how to peel the onion, they tend towards failure more than success. This is one reason Slop Haulers don't appear as often in lists now that the Lightning Bugs are out. They are just too difficult to protect despite being a huge linchpin within the faction.

Compared to other Summoners, Som'er is really lackluster.

9 hours ago, EpicWaffle said:

@Omenbringeri agree with you completely especially about the fact that every time someone complains about them, seems to face gremlin's crews which always happens to have the perfect storm of cards and positioning (the slop hauler example is perfect). To stay on topic, what's your idea about the incoming ups? Do you feel like they're gonna bring some changes?

I haven't really looked at the upcoming books stuff (So will reserve judgment until I see the final copy) but based on the "new" Bajonistas I am not really that optimistic.

Sure they can aid our "Gremlin" models with some free movement and provide a card draw upon the death of a "non-pig" model within 6" (Which is interesting in and of itself) but they aren't particularly durable, encourage clustering the supported models, and one of their primary offensive action is a major danger for Gremlin crews. I am talking primarily about Pluck the Strings and its Paranoid condition. On the surface, it looks decent until you really analyze the condition. For the cost of 1 card or 2 damage, your opponent can force your models within 3 inches of it to have to take a fairly high WP duel to avoid gaining Paranoid themselves. This means your crew has to either avoid that model until the condition expires or stand the chance of suffering more than they did in return. With the clustering that is typical of Gremlin crews, this could potentially prove catastrophic (I would never risk using this action against a crew that has any access to out of activation movement tricks).

5 hours ago, anumberone said:

 Well said, Omenbringer. I can't think of a better argument defending why gremlins are the way they are. 

 Maybe Burt and Mctavish should lose the merc characteristic as you said. Instead, Wyrd can give Moon Shinobi and Bushwhackers merc, let people try them out. 

Funny how you never hear about either of those models (though there are quite a few others that could be up there) when people complain about our factional imbalances.

I think instead of Burt and McTavish losing the mercenary characteristic perhaps the cost of hiring out of faction needs to go up (No hiring affinity should be 2 SS additional per Out of Faction model, a hiring affinity tied to an ability (i.e. Marcus or Zoraida or Leveticus) should still be 1 SS). A lot of models that people seem to complain about are those taken out of their factions or intended crews. Large hiring pools and special hiring circumstances are incredibly difficult to balance, especially as model counts go up. It is just impossible to test everything and release a glut of new models every year.

I have already seen a thread speculating on what the next book will bring. Probably unpopular but, I hope the next book is third edition. The game is in a place where some major revisions to models (beyond the ability of errata's) needs to occur. There are also some core rules that simply don't function well, if at all. With the release of the Otherside (not my cup of tea but I hope it does well) perhaps Wyrd can finally slow their pace with Malifaux. Releasing a book and accompanying models (at least a few for each faction) every year is difficult to do, particularly in a game this complex.

One suggestion that I would offer is when third edition comes to fruition that they seriously consider returning the "Character" to the game. I am not asking for broken combos or any thing like that. I am simply asking that things that are sold together or themed together, function best in their intended crews and much less so out of them. Seamus and the Rotten Belles are a great example of this. Returning the "character" to the game would see the much-maligned Lure action limited outside of Seamus crews by linking one of those provided suits to Seamus instead of always being available regardless of Master.

On 8/8/2017 at 8:51 AM, EpicWaffle said:

I don't quite understand what they want to achieve with gremlins. Even about the upgrades, my fears are that they will just make the stronger master even stronger, and the less used ones even more "meh"

i might be pessimistic, but the more I understand the game, the more it seems that wyrd hasn't a clear idea about what gremlins need, while people are getting more and more salty about them, since this year they popped out from the shadows. Also, were still the smallest community among the factions, and spitting out an entire release of mediocre and situational models seems such a bad move even on the economical level.

I really wanna hope that the new upgrades and gg2018 will bring a new breath of fresh air to the game, otherwise it's getting quite monotonous (if you wanna play competitive, which is for me the best part about this game).

2

I agree that they have really lost their way with the faction. Most of our model release from the last few books have been out of sorts and really seemed to be more useful out of faction than in. I would blame the initial synergistic and self-destructive designs. Most games seem to really struggle with implementing synergy on a wide scale. Generally, you tend to either require so much of it to make your models function that it defeats the purpose (what I typically refer to as "Menoth Syndrom") or you have to either omit or counter it with future options. The issues with the self-destruction piece should be obvious but just in case...when your models have to hurt themselves to do what they do, then you either have to provide a healing mechanic, a replacement option, or make them cheaper than their contemporaries. We see each option implemented in Gremlin's and each comes with it's own opportunity cost (these often exacerbate "Menoth Syndrom" and also make the onion more fragile).

I think Gremlin's are at a point where these limitations are becoming very noticeable. Some great examples of these can be found in the Pigapult (which is expensive and always seems to work flawlessly in battle reports... wish mine was half as reliable) and models that lack the crucial key words "Gremlin" or "Pig" in their characteristic line (In a faction that is built heavily around those two words, models that don't have them tend to be shelf sitters).

I also agree that the current "hate" targeting the faction is really more attributable to the current Gaining Grounds Strats and Schemes than anything else. I might also add that it could also likely be due to the skill of players currently piloting Gremlin's in high profile events.

Unfortunately, what is competitive is usually sedated. With most factions this isn't usually an issue, they tend to be singular models or at the high end of the hiring pool (Think of that wonderful Mechanical Rider whi has had some work over the years). With ours, the complaints are generally targetted at our staple models which we need to function at all (Bayou Gremlin's who always seem to have 3-4 AP due to the perfect and consistent positioning of support models like the Slop Hauler and Iron Skeeters) or Slop Haulers (who always seem to be able to pass out the maximum amount of healing, remain highly mobile, and protected without support models tending them).

Sorry if this feels like a rant, it isn't intended to be but I have grown "crotchety" over the years.

On 8/8/2017 at 7:28 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

I feel that we really got the short end of the stick this time.

During the beta the basic argument seemed to be that our existing choices are so good/OP that we can't have the new stuff be competitive else it be OP.

(Or maybe they'll errata all our good models to oblivion next January so this stuff will start seeming super enticing!)

1

Complaints tend to come from players who don't actually play Gremlin's and have only seen them work spectacularly (i.e. near perfectly).

If you remember the old Red Joker debate it is a similar argument. The Red Joker's appearance is memorable because it is typically seen and does great things (perhaps on a damage flip) where as a lot of players rarely see the Black Joker cause many issues. Despite having the same card rarity (1 in 54), the Black Joker tends to pop out a lot less because if a player draws it into their control hand then it tends to sit there the rest of the game where as the red Joker is allowed to run. The appearance of the Red Joker is usually very memorable because it is either spectacular or pulls victory from defeat. The Black Joker tends to be less memorable because it's appearance is far from spectacular

I really hope that they don't alter much for the faction with the next errata. The complaints seem to be more related to the current batch of Strats/ Schemes than anything else really. Let the Strats and Shcemes shift and see if the issue remains. I doubt it will.

On 8/8/2017 at 3:33 PM, trikk said:

My biggest issue with Burt is that he`s a Mercenary TBH. Same with Tavish. A lot of people are getting them and you can see them in probably 25% crews

I`m planning on buying Gremlins and giving them to a painter soon

 

So the problem with Gremlin's is the handful of models that can be hired out of faction and played with upgrades they were very likely never really tested with (yes I am confident in saying this). Again the faction is not the issue it is the models that can be cross pollinated out of faction. Easy errata there, remove the Mercenary Characteristic or restrict key abilities to only when hired in faction.

Without trying to sound condescending, I think once you start actually running Gremlin's yourself, your opinion on their power level will change dramatically. They really tend to be "feast or famine" (yes even the competitive ones). I have played Gremlin's since first edition and consider myself fairly adept with them. My community doesn't consider them broken or a NPE. Now if you want to talk about models needing serious errata's let's head on over to some of those Book 4 crews. That would be a pretty good place to start working on toning things down.

Really?

He needs one to summon one. He ends up with two Bayou Gremlin's that are reduced to 50% of their Wounds (Meaning no Drunk & Reckless unless healed requiring other models and actions to do). He can Summon exactly 1 model type (even Seamus can summon two different models, both of which are more durable). It requires an upgrade to even be able to do at all. It doesn't have a huge range (meaning both target model and summoned model have to hang close to Som'er). It requires a suit.

Seems pretty balanced to me.

More likely they are focused on getting everything packed for Gencon right now.

The new book is well done Wyrd Crew. I was a bit disappointed that the Scrapper call out box changed from the last edition

My only gripe is the continuation of the reversed gendered pronoun usage. Just changing "him" to "her" and "himself" to "herself" in the text is really sort of missing the point in my opinion.

On 8/8/2017 at 6:22 AM, Bazlord_Prime said:

I think there's a bit of story behind that idea - allowing Sparks to summon Survivors. Would be brilliantly thematic, especially if it was done to living Gremlins, sacrificing the model for a chance to convert it, so if you fail it just ends up as a Corpse or Scrap marker.

Sparks definitely needs something to make him a bit more viable over the other options available. He really doesn't occupy a great niche within the faction.

On 8/8/2017 at 0:22 PM, PositronMike said:

As survivors are meant to be the gremlin rail worker then from a story perspective the best option would either be an ability that means he can discard cards or soulstones when a friendly living gremlin us killed nearby to sacrifice them instead and summon a survivor. The other option that works from a story perspective and might be better from a balance standpoint is to give sparks an action to summon survivors of wounded living gremlins however this may be too good with Som'er's summoning. 

I disagree that it would be a huge issue with Som'er'ssummoning. I have long argued that Som'er's has the most balanced summon mechanic in the game. Requiring Sparks to use a 1 AP action to summon wouldn't be an issue, particularly if it followed Som'er's mechanic (i.e. needing a Gremlin model to summon a Survivor and also incuring Wounds on the summoned model).

14 hours ago, Flinroz said:

Played Wong Today, Hired 2 at 3ss...

They are worth 3ss...

Not to be a downer but 1 play isn't exactly proof that they are costed correctly.

Granted they may have done well in the specific situation you outlined with the Strat/ Scheme combination and your opponent's crew (I am assuming very little ranged ability and low model counts) but that doesn't mean they are appropriately costed or will replicate that utility in a varied circumstance (Different crew, opponent, Strat/ Scheme combination).

Don't get me wrong I think the SS increase was the easiest method of fixing the spam issue and still argue they are cheaper than they used to be (1st edition they cost 3 and you had to hire a Taxidermist to hire them at all).

1 hour ago, Flinroz said:

If I want those bayou shots to land I need to either get lucky or cheat in cards. With the way the game was going I was saving my best stuff for more important models. The Piglets gave me extra damage without costing me any resources.

1

Aside from the 3 SS hiring cost for the Stuffed Piglet that is, which is wasted as soon as the Stuffed Piglet goes Pop to do all the damage and is removed from the board.

Comparing Bayou Gremlin's to Stuffed Piglets isn't really a good idea as they do very different things. In most cases, the Bayou Gremlin is the better hiring option as it provides more options/ versatility for the crew than the Stuffed Piglet whose main (now possibly only) role is as a damage dealer.

Again glad you found them worth the hire in your game but I think it is too soon to see how much the price increase hurts their use/ hiring. Keep in mind I have rarely found them worth hiring in this edition (even at 2 SS) since Som'er's Skeeters lost their ability to function as Air Traffic Control for the Bacon Bombing Assassination Runs of the last edition.

On 8/6/2017 at 10:46 AM, the tick said:

Maybe an upgrade for Zipp that let's him summon Bayou Gremlins. As in the crew of the airship is being called into battle. I'm imagining the Gremlins swinging in on ropes from Zipp's airship. Some of course are willing and others are encouraged.

3 SS Battle Stations

(1) "Send 'Em In!": (Ca: 5 / TN: 14 / Rg: 6) Summon a Bayou Gremlin. The summoned Gremlin immediately takes 2 damage.

Not that we need another summoner in faction, but for themes sake?

 

4

Would rather it be Survivors than Bayou Gremlin's but I like the idea (would like it even better if Spark's gained an upgrade that allowed him to summon Survivors from Corpse counters or dying gremlins around him).

Not really, the Banjonista's Pluck the Strings is vastly different.

I am hoping Som'er receives an upgrade that returns Sooey!! to him as a 1 action so he can use the Pig Boomerang again. Likely not going to happen but one can always hope.

4 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Wait - Bayou Gremlins used to be Terrifying???

That'd be so awesome!!

Maybe one of Som'er's new Upgrades will be "(1) Midnight Snack" (a reference to the Gremlins movies), which could turn all Bayous within 6 Terrifying (Living) till end of turn. Fun.

Then of course, you'd also want to have something about not getting them wet, but Som'er already summons Bayous off one another, so...

Yes they used to have a 1 action called Deliverance that gave them Terrifying 11

On 8/1/2017 at 8:15 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

I have to say that I'm a bit surprised and intrigued by this reaction. Have people been using Pigapult with Stuffed ammo? I always found Concussion completely debilitating and have valued throwing the Stuffeds as opposed to using them as Ammo. And naturally throwing everything else as well, be they Piglets or Bayou Gremlins that a Summoning Master is Summoning.

1

I am as well, Concussion is a pretty steep negative for using Stuffed Piglets as ammo even before you add in the cost of hiring models instead of summoning them. Though the Lenny-Pigapult combination looks expensive, summoning the ammo with Lenny is generally the better method, especially if you are using Pig Ladders to aid in moving Lenny and the Pigapult around the board.

On 8/1/2017 at 3:10 PM, wizuriel said:

1) reduce cost to 6SS

2) remove reckless

 

Though I agree the Pigapult is an expensive model (particularly when compared to its 1sr edition version) the primary issue with lowering its cost by 4 SS is that terrain density plays a huge role in the effectiveness of the Pigapult. Groups that play at the higher end of terrain density will be affected differently than those who play at the low end. What I would like to see is the cost lowered significantly and Launch'n moved to a general Upgrade card.

Removing Reckless would massively impact the Pigapult and reduce its already tenuous presence in the game. In short, it would become a shelf sitter unless massively reduced in cost.

On 7/30/2017 at 1:05 AM, Bazlord_Prime said:

I'd be 3 thumbs up for more/any Voodoo zombie Gremlin shenanigans. That side of the Looziana bayou trope hasn't been tapped nearly enough yet. MOAR!!!

Maybe another Gremlin Master one day: "Baron Same-Day". He's an Undead Gremlin postman, who was murdered for his postbag full of goodies, his body thrown to the Gators but resurrected by a shadowy and chill presence deep in the swamp. He was taught its ways, and now practices the necromantic arts amongst the beasts of the bayou. And that includes the odd, unwary Gremlin...

Would be great if he could either turn Gremlin models Incorporeal or raise gremlin's from the dead as undead with Hard to Wound or similar.

On that note I would love to see an upgrade for Somer that gave Bayou Gremlins their lost terrifying action from 1st edition.