Omenbringer

Are you located in the United States? If so my LGS more than likely has one. Let me know and I can give you the contact information.

Here are a few. I haven't done the Athonian Camoshade on my pigs as I haven't painted my Flying Pigs yet.

These were done with one or more layers of Seraphim Sepia, Agrax Earthshade, and Reikland Fleshshade.

I use the Citadel paint system for Tanned Flesh. Bugman's Glow (Base), Reikland Fleshshade (Shade), Cadian Fleshtone (Layer), and Kislev Flesh (Layer). After this I apply thin layers of Seraphim Sepia and Agrax Earth Shade to pull the look back toward Brown from Pink. It has worked really well for me for the Pigs.

For the Flying pigs I might suggest the Rotting Flesh recipe. Citadel Rakarth Flesh (Base), Druchii Violet (Shade), Carroburg Crimson (Shade), thinned Rakarth Flesh (Base), Pallid Wych Flesh (Layer). After this I would apply thin layers of Athonian Camoshade (Shade) and Seraphim Sepia (Shade). The Camoshade is great for introducing some greenish brown that will mellow the Pallid Wych Flesh and make the whole model look like dead reanimated flesh.

Hopefully some of that helps.

9 hours ago, ShinChan said:

In addition, there are models that can just directly ignore the traps, like those that fly, are incorporeal or unaffected by hazardous terrain.

Though I said I wouldn't...here I am.

While yes I concede there are models that can ignore them, these 3 abilities are far from common and not available to all keywords or even factions (Condition removal is far more common than any of these even without considering that all models can use Assist for Burning, Distraction, and Injured).

Also, Pit Traps are "50mm, Destructible, Severe, Hazardous (Damage 1 and Injured +1)". The Severe trait does affect "non-place movement effects". Again there isn't an opportunity cost to the Mah player for using the Action Create Traps. It is successful 50% of the time with out cheating and doesn't detract from anything else the model wants to do (there are no competing actions on their cards so they are truly a "free" action for the model). It is really all benefit for the Mah player. Having 12 of them on the board can affect over half a square foot of a 9 square foot table if placed well (and this is before considering other terrain on the board). For comparison, it would take 20-ish Ice Pillars to have a similar impact on the board.

The "Stock Crew" is the crew that comes in the box (Mah Tucket, Little Lass, Trixiebelle, and 3 Bushwhackers). Not all players (particularly new players) will have all the options available to them to play the counter pick game (having fairly balanced crew boxes should be a priority since this is how most new players judge the game and decide whether they will buy in deeper). Most of the lists I have seen for Mah have a core built around Big Brain Brin (so damn good), 2 Bushwhackers (the combination of From the Shadows and Stealth is extremely potent for objective running while the long range, cover ignoring, solid damage producing Clockwork Rifle is perfect for 1st turn harassment), and 2 Rooster Riders (another solid producer for the crew but more expensive and less impactful on turn 1 than the Bushwhackers). This leaves 16 SS to hire what ever other goodies you want. Additionally, hiring OoK incurs an additional cost for the crew (unless Versatile) and in many crews can limit the potency of the Key Word primary Ability. Lastly, not all crews can afford to hire more than one OoK or versatile models in their crew (sure there are exceptions but they are exceptions not the rule).

We are unlikely to sway each other to the others position, but if nothing else, it should give the developers a solid foundation for them to consider either way.

21 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Those traps are destructible, and there are models across all factions that can take care of more than one them in a single action (Blow it to hell). Also, they don't come for free. A Tricksy crew will start with 1-4, since there are only 4 models that can put them (Mah herself and 3 Bushwhackers). "The stock crew can place for free"? The maximum generated each turn is 4, and the Tricksy player will need to have 3 Bushwhackers and 6-7-7-7. Also, most miniatures from the crew are not even immune to them, so another reason why you'll never see that number appearing every turn.

Have you ever played against Kaeris? Burning +1 and Injured +1 from the Pyre markers, and those can't be destroyed by anyone.

It really looks like you had a bad experience playing against Mah, but what you're saying doesn't make sense.

First, the existence of other similar Abilities, Actions, or Interactions on other models that are seen as more potent is not an argument for not addressing anything. Truthfully most of these terrain markers should probably be looked at given the impact they can have on many boards on the high end of the terrain density. Secondly, trivializing other players experiences is a long tradition during these discussions on this forum. It wont change anything. The down grading of posts is fun though.

With that said...

Yes the traps are destructible but it costs 1 AP from one of your models to do (this is potent enough). And while yes there are models that can get rid of more than one they aren't in every Keyword and they have an additional cost to take OoK that isn't always negated by the additional cost. Placing 4 Pit Traps after Deployment of your opponents models is hugely powerful given they can be placed as close as 3" outside the opponents Deployment Zone. Each is almost 2" of space, placing them an inch apart means that you can cover about 12" of ground and still threaten any base that has to move thru them (30mm base is more than an inch) dictating a lot of your opponents first turn and slowing many crews substantially (-AP if you destroy them or movement penalty if you move thru or around them). The value required to successfully cast Create Trap is the average value of the deck and also accomplished via a action on models that don't have a competing one on the card (meaning there really isn't an opportunity cost to using it and failing). While most of the models available to Mah may not be Immune to the Traps, the majority of the stock crew is (only Trixiebelle and The Little Lass are not). Lets also not act like these wont be used to make Test Subjects incredibly potent for their very minimal cost (3 Bushwhackers and 3 Test Subjects is only 30 SS, leaving plenty to hire a Big Brain Brin and other goodies to augment the Crew and notice there is no upper limit to the benefit Test Subjects can receive from Failed Experiment like other models in faction possess). As far as never seeing that many of them, well our Mah player has never struggled in a game to produce 12 or more Pit Traps over the duration and has yet to be hampered by them himself. Lastly, hiring the Bushwhackers isn't really a deterrent for most Mah Tucket lists, they are a very good model for a very nice cost. Perhaps a bit myopic but I fail to recall seeing a Mah list posted on the forum that doesn't hire at least 2 in the crew.

As always these are my opinions on an item that may need to be looked at for possible errata and no more or less valid than anyone else's. If your experiences have differed then great, but that doesn't make mine any less valid. But since the tenor of this thread seems to have reached its inevitable nadir, I will depart since I have already laid out the case and let the developers make the final decisions.

2 hours ago, solkan said:

Please go read the Abilities section, and the example with Armor +1.  

Because you appear to be claiming that the Armor example won't work either.

with the example:

Disclaimer:  The rules for abilities on models that have an effect on the crew as a whole, and how those stack, could use an errata or FAQ so that they're spelled out in detail.  That is, spelling out that crew-affecting abilities on models stack the same way as they would if all of the abilities were all on the same model.

But please keep in mind that the +X convention for Conditions is only actually used in the Conditions rules.

Let me state again, I agree that the intent is for it to stack and expand the deployment zone in increments tied to the value and not just 1" regardless of value.

With that said the ability doesnt read like that as currently written. Armor is a fair comparison but is tied to a singular model where as Home on the Range references a group of models. The wording on Armor is singularly applicable where as the wording on Home on the Range is plurally applicable and makes parsing out the intent more confusing to the first time reader.

I have read the rules references you posted (that is where I went before posting), they really didnt provide the clarity you are implying they should (not intended as a slight at all).

My main reason for continuing to post is that I agree with you that for the sake of clarity and consistency abilities should have a similar and consistent format to conditions and both should clearly spell out what they do and how they are used (in this case instead of including a static value of +1" for Home on the Range it should be a +X"  instead).

Just some thoughts since the forum current seems to be trending toward erratas and faqs.

On 9/15/2019 at 3:44 AM, dannydb said:

Shenlong has to much counter play...

Late to the party on this thread but figured I would add Mah Tucket to this. She has an awful lot of counter play based around Scamper and the Pit Traps. Add in the Bushwhacker's Stealth and it makes a crew that is extremely difficult to actually engage. Personally I think Stealth needs to be toned down to provide a flip to attacks from over 6" instead of a carte blanche can not target (which is insanely good and extremely annoying to play against). Pit traps should also probably be downsized to 30mm instead of 50mm, particularly given the stock crew can place 4 for free after Deployment which greatly hinders a lot of crews. Another option could be to have them placed before Deployment instead of after. I might also add a stipulation that the Pit Trap markers can not be placed within 1" of an opponents model. The combination of damage and Injured from these coupled with the ease and number that can be generated makes them an overly potent tool in a crew that already has a lot of potency.

12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Pretty sure it stacks. Since it says  +1" (and not 1"), they should stack. 5 copies of the effect gives +5 inches for your crew. Pretty crazy for corner deployment!

12 hours ago, Sweet Tooth said:

Home on the Range does stack. It has a ‘+1’ in the Ability name meaning that you get +1” more deployment area for each additional Frontier model.

You see I agree that is how it is intended to be played however, the ability doesn't really read that way:

          Home on the Range +1: When deploying, every friendly model with this Ability can deploy +1"  beyond this Crew's Deployment Zone.

The stackable +value behind the Home on the Range ability isn't clearly associated with affecting the static value in the description in any way.  In other words the ability doesn't perform like the Injured condition (which clearly associates the +value after the condition to the variable effect value in the description) but more like the Distracted condition (where the +value behind the condition doesn't affect the static effect value).

Perhaps in a future errata the association could be made clearer by changing the static value in the description to a variable +X" instead of the existing static +1" if that is what is intended. In either event, I still feel the ability is lackluster and would have been better served by simply giving the crew From the Shadows as their signature ability (this would reflect their mastery of the terrain fluff much better).

On 1/2/2020 at 4:27 PM, wizuriel said:

Bushwhackers I find are much better than survivors. From the shadows lets you place them to start to scheme turn 2 with stealth keeping them safe if you want to play them more aggressively. With stealth and ignoring cover they can usually take some nice potshots without much fear of retaliation. If an enemy gets close I usually drop a pit trap to block their charge lane (unless they want to go through the pit trap which is usually very painful). I've also killed things doing a focused shot and cheating in a  to push the enemy into a pit trap.

On 1/7/2020 at 1:44 AM, Davie said:

I like this new found love for bushwhackers I generally thought people didn't like them.

Stealth might just be one of the best defensive abilities in the game. Bushwhackers definitely put in a lot of work for a very minimal investment.

After a few games I am really struggling to see what Basse and crew are supposed to excel at. My guess is that they are supposed to be durable and mobile. So far however they have lived up to neither of these expectations. Home on the Range is a really, really lackluster ability. No matter how many in your crew have it the bonus is still only the +1" additional to deployment (I hope I am reading this wrong and it is +1" per iteration of Home on the Range). Favorable Terrain has some potential, however necessitates heavy use of Kick Up Dust which competes with other  actions that are available while also often needing  a 5 or higher to succeed (I can't tell you the number of times I had to cheat this in my last game). The minions are the most heavily impacted by both of these. The benefit is also largely offset by the realities of dictating the turn order and its ineffectiveness against any attack that doesn't have a in its profile. I have also found them somewhat slow with the possible exception of the Pathfinder who can use Follow My Path outside of activation during the Start Phase thanks to Trailblazer.

I really want to like this crew but can't help feeling like they really need a lot to be even decently competitive. Any one having different experiences?

On 12/30/2019 at 3:55 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

That was a huge problem last edition I hear. Guaranteeing last activation is extremely powerful, and easily worth 4 stones for a couple of gremlins hiding in the corner somewhere.

I agree the pass token issue punishes models like these, but it is an important balancing factor.

A general rule could be a solution, such as capping pass tokens at 3. The rat solution is also good (rats can skip their activation to eat an enemy pass token).

Bayou Gremlins have been hacked to pieces from what they were last edition, and I would argue they weren't as great as they were made out then either. Since last edition for a single SS reduction in cost they have lost 1 point of Defense, 1 point of Willpower, 2 Wounds (this is probably the most dertimental), 1 point on their Banjo Bash attack in addition to a reduction on their damage spread, 1 point on their Boomstick attack in addition to a 2" reduction in range, Bayou Two Card, Dumb and Reckless and Dumb Luck.

In exchange they got a model limit, an expanded Squeel Trigger which is unlikely to ever come into play because of the Low Stat values, Insignificant, a Demise ability to gain a singular control card on their death, a limited cluster buff that raises their stats to average levels while making them extremely susceptible to Blasts, Aura/ Pulses, and Shockwaves, a Trigger on their Banjo Bash providing a singular additional point of damage in exchange for ending their activation, and 2 new triggers on their Boomstick (one that is a crappy combination of Ricochet and limited Dumb Luck and the other which is only marginally better).

I am not asking for broken, I am asking for a compelling reason to hire or summon them (especially this) at all.

On 12/30/2019 at 4:43 AM, Jesy Blue said:

Capping Pass Tokens at all ruins the whole Qi and Gong crew, so let's not touch that.

How about just making Bayou Gremlins Mindless, but give Somer an ability that negates them being Mindless if he's the leader?

While I would love to have seen a cap on Pass Tokens, that ship has sailed. It is what it is now.

Adding Mindless (somewhat better than Som'er's Family Gathering upgrade penalty from his once per activation Summons which incurs both Slow and generates a Pass Token while also being limited to 5 copies in play unless you hit a 2nd suit trigger to discard it on a single summoned model) and something similar to the Malifaux Rat's "Just a Rat...?" ability to Bayou Gremlin's is a compelling option. The 2 together would go an awful long way to making them worth considering with their current deficiencies. I wouldn't mind also seeing the Rare Limit increased to 12 as well.

I still contend that the issues with out activation last edition were not the result of crews that were designed to have it, but crews that could gain access to it through faction hiring pools without additional costs. The Keywords have gone a very long way to fixing that this edition.

In the end it is up to the devs to decide on how to complete Som'er and the Bayou Gremlins (which have changed quite a bit from his initial Boss of minis previous editions).

On 12/12/2019 at 7:45 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

Bayou Gremlin. He's the basic Gremlin and Versatile but does anyone outside of Big Hat ever hire one? I'm not at all sure what should be done as they are so cheap and have good synergy with Big Hat but I really wish that they could be adjusted somehow to make them at least an occasional consideration.

The Bayou Gremlin's largest issue is their victim stats.

2 SS is a high price to pay for a model that is this easy to remove (even if it does provide a Card in return). Sure you can cluster them close for an up to +2 bonus but that comes with its own set of issues (Shock Wave, Blasts, activation ordering, LOS/ movement blocking, etc). Even summoning them is often a losing proposition compared to other options.

A second errata possibility for them is to address the Pass token generation penalty they often come with. They are already Insignificant so why punish the player twice by also giving the opponent Pass tokens. I would rather see them given an ability that removes the Pass token generation for them than the Demise Card generation.

Just my thoughts.

Off the base measurements:

Snout to tail length: 1.5"

Shoulder to shoulder width: .5"

Hoove to Spine height (off base): 1"

* Might be some small differences between the 3 poses.

While I understand the frustration with the faction card decks, Wyrd has released the M3e Crew Builder app for free to offset the hassle. I never thought I would say it, but I much prefer the functionality and ease the free app provides to utilizing my physical cards and tracking which need erratas.

I do feel for our non-American communities but consider that many of the issues with shipping costs are beyond Wyrd's ability to really influence.

Additionally, shipping paper products can be deceptively expensive. I recall a conversion I had with a game producer at Gencon that stated the reason an upgrade kit for one of their rebooted games was difficult to find in LGS was due to the high cost of shipping the bricks of paper upgrade materials through the supply chain. For comparison, the brick of paper materials is a bit smaller in size than a Malifaux crew box but easily a pound or more in weight. The faction decks are similar being a bit smaller than a single box but way heavier.

Just my thoughts.

I was just getting ready to ask about this. Hoping to see it soon, I have plans...

I know it is extremely short notice but....

For those in the Akron, Canton, Youngstown, or Cleveland area, there will be demos of Malifaux 3rd Edition on Saturday, October 5, 2019 from 12 - 6 pm at Con on the Cob.

Con on the Cob is being held at:

Days Inn & Suites
4742 Brecksville Rd
Richfield, OH 44286

All required materials will be provided. Demos will last approximately 1 hour. Hope to see you there.

14 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

...there is a piece of advice I can give that I have to someone who thought guild sucked now in the open beta forums.  It's that the playstyle of the faction might not bring you happiness anymore. If that's the case, it might be more worth it to explore the other factions and see if you can find what does.

So your suggestion is to look for another faction/ crew that does what your old favorite did in another faction? If it exists in another faction then what the hell was the point of all the changes?

You are correct in stating that it should be looked at as a new game. It is a very different game than either of the previous editions and in some aspects nearly unrecognizable. Some may view it as an improvement, others will see it as quite the opposite. There is nothing wrong with that. I am glad that some are really enjoying the changes.

We can always hope, however, I think that has appeared on the fate decks for a very long time.

There is an official announcement from Kyle here that Wyrd will not be attending Origins this year.

One of the design goals of the new edition was to limit shelf sitters not create new ones.

The current version suffers from "Menoth Syndrome" (an ailment whose symptoms include requiring multiple buffs to get sub par models to function at a level equivalent to most other models) and is way to fragile on those vital support pieces. Yes when everything functions perfectly it can be potent, but once your opponent takes out a key piece the whole house of cards collapses and very quickly.  The last play test version was a band aid response to staunch the damage that was done by the broadsword approach of his redesign.

I really wish Wyrd would stop reinventing the wheel every time they release a new edition. I no loner recognize the game I bought into (heavily) and worked avidly to promote (in many different areas) so many years ago. So I guess the play test mantra of "look at it as a new game" was met (at least in the case of Somer). I guess we will see how the communities receive the new game in an environment where Games Workshop is aggressively competing for the skirmish market.

Not sure if it helps, but Wyrd has mentioned previously that there is a plan for obtaining new models included only in crew boxes in another way for those of us who have already bought in (many of us heavily). Don't recall them releasing any further details but it will be great if it does happen and doesn't require anything other than purchasing from their online store front.

We should remember that posting feedback on the forums wasn't the only method of submitting suggestions/recommendations during the open play test. Some feel as if the forums have a tendency to focus on a few vocal play testers that may appear to bully those who disagree with them.

Having participated in more than a few of these for Wyrd, I can say that this one was quite a bit tamer than those in the past but was not exactly free of issues.

In the end, everyone will have to evaluate the final game for themselves and decide to stay or go. Losing players is never a good thing but is also somewhat inevitable. The trick is to minimize loss. Rebuilding communities is a difficult thing, more so when a large swath of potential players possess a very bad taste that poisons the well.  I for one am not looking forward to rebuilding should my community not take to M3e. We had just recovered from the M2e transition.