Lelu and Lilitu's Regen ability

[Kintaro]

Hey all,

so Lilitu's/Lelu's ability Regeneration says :

Regeneration +1 : When this model activates, it heals +1 damage.

And their ability Same oppressive/malignant force says :

When this model heals damage or gains a condition from a source other than the same oppressive/malignant force ability, any friendly Lilitu/Lelu heals the same amount of damage or gains the same condition unless it discards two cards.

So here's a situation we ran into tonight :

Lelu suffered 5 damage, and when turn was passed to opponent, she activated Lilitu, who used her Regen, sharing with Lelu. Lilitu was at full health. She then attempted to heal on Lelu.

The discussion that followed was that Lilitu "healed" one, so then so should Lelu.

However, the counter argument was that since she was at full health, she didn't heal anything (IE zero) (per the RB that says if you're at full health, any extra are discarded), so Lelu shouldn't have healed anything either (IE zero).

The Lilitu-controlling player then claims that she healed one - despite it being then discarded - so that Lelu gets the +1 heal "as well".

Can you guys help? Would Lelu get the heal? Seems to two of the three of us that she healed zero, so he'd also heal zero.

Also, can a Marshal weigh in here?

Thanks everyone!!

[HalcyonSeraph]

The problem is, that is to some extent the exact same argument I made, and honestly understood in regards to moves and pushes before the FAQ came out. The fact that a model was subjected to a move action meant that even if they didn't in fact move the tiniest amount on the table didn't change the fact that they had just ended a "Move". The same with pushes. I had understood before the FAQ that if, for example, Lilith targeted a model who was already in b2b contact with a wall with Transfixing Gaze, the fact that they didn't actually move at all didn't change the fact that they ended a push in b2b with a piece of impassible terrain, and therefore would take dmg and get the slow condition. The FAQ changed that.

The language and intent in multiple cases has been shown to be that if something occurs, and it doesn't in fact cause any of the things it is supposed to cause, then it didn't happen. Be forced to move and move 0", means you didn't move for any game effects. Be forced to Push and be pushed 0", means you didn't get pushed for any in game effects. The same with damage, and so while I can see the argument, I think for consistency sake if nothing else I would argue that if you have no wounds to heal, you don't heal, nor trigger any in game effects that are triggered from it.

Luckily if the intent is opposite, at least in the twins case, wording fixes can be done on their cards before they come out to amend this issue.

This is only a problem if you assign a game definition to the word Move, which Justin has stated multiple times does not exist and will not. Walk, Charge, Push, and Place have defined terms in Malifaux distinct from their other definitions - move does not. Thus, move means what it means in real life - to change location. A model which has moved 0 has not moved. It doesn't matter that it has been subject to a "move action" because there's no such thing as a "move action" in the rules of Malifaux. The FAQ didn't change anything in that regard.

---------- Post added at 12:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 PM ----------

Wasn't it also ruled that even if Tara discards 0 cards, she has performed the "discard action"? So wouldn't that make that if Lilitu heals 0 she has performed the heal action and thus Lelu would copy it and heal what it can?

No, it was clarified that the discard was not a cost, but an effect, thus it doesn't matter how many cards she discards. There's no "discard action" to take.

---------- Post added at 12:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 PM ----------

Parts of the FAQ and the ruling on Master of Malifaux vs. Silent were a little disheartening. It kind of makes it to where if there's a language ambiguity in the rules it can't be resolved short of getting a designer involved. Not sure I'm a fan.

By RAW a model at full health still heals, so it should work, but hey what can you do.

This I agree with. I understand that "cant trumps can" doesnt work, but neither does "more specific wins", and I don't know of any global statement that can be a Golden Rule, so I'm not sure there is any solution other than "Try to make the rules clear and be diligent about FAQing the things that aren't"

At the table you can always flip a coin for it and hash it out later. That's a terrible long term solution (thanks GW!) but a perfectly fine short-term one.

[Insidiously Mad]

Just came across this and was wondering if there is a definitive answer on this yet or not? Didn't see anything in an faq and want to use Lelu and Lilitu soon, but would prefer to know if this has been resolved

[DocSchlock]

The Same Oppressive force ability was rewritten to prevent shared regen if the model regenerating has no damage. It's on the final cards.