Yet another new Malifaux/Neverborn player

[nathaniel]

Grabbed rulebook, card deck, Lillith and Candy at the local shop today.

I see Lillith has an ability that works with a Nephelim and Candy can shunt attacks off on another Woe. So for my 3rd and 4th miniature, I'm thinking of getting one of each of those.

The local store doesn't have any box sets in stock and the only other thing for Neverborn they have in stock is a Pandora Avatar miniature without a card in it. So I'll be special ordering whatever I want. I really like the look of the Dreamer box set, but I think I'll get a neph and another woe first.

If anyone else is in Winnipeg, definitely let me know. And if anyone has any general help with starting let me know. I'm good on the miniature painting front, but I'm still new for this particular game (and faction).

[micahwc]

I would suggest Lelu and Lilitu as they are awesome models in the game, and are both nephilim and woes at the same time. They will work well with both Lilith and Candy.

They are awesome minions and there are many threads about the two, including the "Best Neverborn Minions" thread which talks about them a lot.

[nathaniel]

I'll check them out. At first I didn't have a positive reaction to Lilu's pose, but when I think about looking down on it on the table top, I think it might look pretty good.

I'll go read the ton of other threads about the two.

[karn987]

Hi there and welcome to Neverborn!

Lilith is a good master to start out with and a great way to learn the basics of the game as well as the advanced mechanics. I do suggest you read my Lilith Tactica (see the link in my Signature) and check out the PullyMyFinger Tactica Wiki (see link in my Signature) and read up on both of those. That will pretty much give you a one stop shop for all the information you need to learn and expand on your crew =).

But human interaction is so much more fun then reading text right? So for the next models you go with you have a lot of options open to you since you don't have a boxed set. Normally with Lilith you start with some Terror Tots, Young Nephilim, and a Mature Nephilim. If you get 1 Blister of each of those it gives you pretty much all you ever need of them and they are Lilith's classic core models.

If you want to make more use of Candies Martyr while still showing some Nephilim love then Lelu and Lilitu (they are Nephilim and Woes) is the way to go as Micahwc said. They are a fantastic pair of models if a bit pricey point wise. But from there you can fill out your list with Terror Tots for the potential to grow them into Young and then Mature into Mature Nephilim.

So my recommendation would be to get Terror Tots, Young Nephilim, and a Mature Nephilim because they form the core of Lilith's crew. Lelu and Lilitu are still a great choice but maybe hold off on them till you get these core Nephilim out of the way.

As for Avatar Pandora model, there are currently no rules for her right now. Wyrd was originally just a pure miniature company so they have several models that have no rules attached to them. But you could still always use Avatar Pandora s Pandora if you so wished, it just may not be acceptable for Wyrd events at like Gencon etc. I actually do this now and then since I love the Avatar model

[micahwc]

I don't think anyone initially likes Lelu's pose, but his game abilities make up for it.

[karn987]

I actually like Lelu's pose once I got him in my hands. Angle him down a bit and he is charging straight ahead to barrel through someone, very fitting I think.

[micahwc]

He looks better in person than in the picture. I have one with the fist raised high like he is screaming or doing an uppercut. The other has his fist lower and looks more like he is charging.

I used a knife to cut whip marks into the backs of both.

[nathaniel]

mechanics. I do suggest you read my Lilith Tactica (see the link in my Signature) and check out the PullyMyFinger Tactica Wiki (see link in my Signature) and read up on both of those. That will pretty much give you a one stop shop for all the information you need to learn and expand on your crew =).

Thanks, I'll give them a read.

If you get 1 Blister of each of those it gives you pretty much all you ever need of them and they are Lilith's classic core models.

Okay. I see how Lilith could work well with the Nephilim and their ability to grow with blood. I don't know if I'm going to go that route. I'll need to figure out more of what I want and how things work.

Is Lilith balanced assuming that you will be taking and growing Nephilim with her? Does she suffer if you don't take any terror tots?

[micahwc]

She works just fine without them. She really only has two abilities which are designed for them. One is her ability to gain blood tokens and the other lets her companion a friendly nephilim model. The companion ability also works with Lelu and Lilitu.

Illusionary forest works really well with waldgeists, and I have run Lilith just fine with only waldgeists and sillurids.

Lilith is very user friendly because she is fast. She can attack a lot, move a lot, or do a combination of the two. She can take objectives quickly because of her speed.

I personally very rarely take terror tots. I prefer young nephilim for the cost over terror tots and mature. I will mature into a mature nephilim if I am able but I do not make growing my tactic. If it happens it is a nice bonus, if not, no worries.

[Allidor]

Karn does a really nice job in his Tactica explaining how you don't necessarily want to come in and focus on trying to mature the Nephilim. Lilith has a whole slew of tricks she can use, and the Nephilim have a few of their own.

For instance, the Terror Tots and the Young Nephilim both have the Flay trigger, potentially taking a Terror Tot from a 1/3/4 to a 3/5/6 and a Young Nephilim from a 2/4/5 to a 4/6/7.

This potentially makes a Terror Tot 1 Dg away from having the same Dg stats as a Mature and the Young actually exceeds the stats of the Mature when Flay goes off.

[karn987]

Thanks, I'll give them a read.

Okay. I see how Lilith could work well with the Nephilim and their ability to grow with blood. I don't know if I'm going to go that route. I'll need to figure out more of what I want and how things work.

Is Lilith balanced assuming that you will be taking and growing Nephilim with her? Does she suffer if you don't take any terror tots?

Lilith is balanced without them and with them she is not over-powered as long as you don't abuse them. There is a style of list out there dubbed "Blood Factory" or "Blood Counter Abuse" where this mechanic is heavily abused. The basic premise of the abuse is they double or close to triple their SS investment into Terror Tots and a sacrificial model or two by killing their own models, getting huge returns on Blood Counters from them, and then Growing/Maturing the Tots up into Matures rapidly.

So as long as you don't hardcore abuse it, they are perfectly fine. The Nephilim are great models without it, this little extra thing is a really neat little side bit in all honesty. If your not killing your own models for Blood, then your still having to perform actions during the game to use those abilities so it balances out.

This is one reason why I like the twins (lelu and lilitu) so much. I like to Lure a model into my line early game ( turn 2 at the latest) and kill it with BB Shaman's around so I can gain a good amount of Blood and quickly Grow my Tots into Young. But it's not broken because that is actually a lot of effort to get that many lures off and the opponent has to be foolish enough to leave a living/undead model in the open that isn't as slow as a rock.

Also some players swear by just bringing Young Nephilim and ignoring Tots. Young Nephilim are one of the strongest models in the game for it's point cost. Though they are hyper focused on melee and don't really have much in the way of defensive options, they do an amazing amount of damage.

[emissary]

I've found the tots to be good objective grabbers. They're fast, especially if you have a mask (or Nekima) in hand for sprint. They're HT 1 so can hide very easily and they're cheap and they aren't insignificant. I usually bring 2-3 in a 35 SS game which allows me to let my 3 big hitters (Lilith, Lelu and Nekima/Mature) focus on killing and still have 2-3 good objective grabbers.

[micahwc]

My problem with the tots is that they just die to easily to ranged attacks. You really have to be careful where you place them. Of course, the same could be said of the young and the mature.

[nathaniel]

I've decided I'm going to build a second faction as I go so I can invite people to play who don't have miniatures yet, so I think I'm going to start by getting some mercenaries.

I'll probably get the twins, but I'm going to wait to lee Lelu in person before I buy him. I really don't like his pose and there's no shortage of demon/devil miniatures out there that I could use instead. So I may just order his card and find an alternate miniature.

[micahwc]

By "the twins" do you mean the Viktoria mercenary set, or the Lelu/Lilitu twins?

Lelu/Lilitu are great, and I would advise you to do whatever you are comfortable with as far as the Lelu miniature is concerned.

The Viks are good to, but you might want to check on the outcast forums before you buy the box set. Some people feel the box is not as useful a set of models as you could get buying them individually.

[nathaniel]

I meant Lelu/Lilitu. I don't really plan on getting Viktoria. I'm not sure which Outcast Master I'll end up getting.

Any mercenaries that work especially well with Neverborn (or Lilith specifically)?

[karn987]

I meant Lelu/Lilitu. I don't really plan on getting Viktoria. I'm not sure which Outcast Master I'll end up getting.

Any mercenaries that work especially well with Neverborn (or Lilith specifically)?

Mmm not really. In general she is best to stay with her Nephilim and maybe the Hooded Rider or something else. But the Convict Gunslinger is not bad with her same with the Freikorps, they give her some ranged support she lacks. But as I said, you really don't need them to do well.

The only exception is if you want to make a Blood Factory list... then you need some cheap models to drain and generally that is a merc model. But I hope your not going to make one of those

[micahwc]

The Viks or Von Schill I belive are your only outcast choices to use with Lilith in a brawl.

I have not liked the convict gunslinger with her because his range is about the same as the charge/diving attack range of a young or mature nephilim. He is not bad, but I think there are other things which are better.

I like the idea of including Taylor, Johan, or Misaki with Lilith when you know you will be fighting a lot of spirits.