Timing confusion

[Bodiless]

I am still confused about exactly how timing works in the game. This confusion stems from the fact that on page 37 we have three steps for Resolving Actions:

 

1. Declare Actions and Spend AP.

2. Perform Duels

3. Resolve Results

 

In Resolve Results, it states "the most common effects are dealing damage". So this section seems to say that damage is deal in step 3 of the general action sequence.

 

However, in the 5 steps for performing a duel it seems to suggest on page 33 that damage the results of the duel, including applying damage, are resolved in Step 5 of performing a duel. Resolving damage during Step 5 has been cited, and confirmed by Justin in an earlier thread, as the reason that defensive triggers like Safe in My Bed take effect after damage has been flipped for, because they occur after Step 5. But that seems to contradict page 37 and the text for Resolve Results.

 

So when is damage resolved? Step 5 of Perform Duels or Step 3? If it is resolved in Step 3, along with (apparently) defensive triggers (since the only step after Step 5 of Perform Duel is Resolve Results), what determines the order in which things take effect? If damage is resolved in Step 5 of Perform Duels, what does the text on page 37 mean? 

 

Thanks!

[DocSchlock]

You're thinking about it a little too hard.

Steps of an Action are just that: the steps that an Action goes through. It's a general overview about how Actions flow and not meant to be overly descriptive about duels.

Triggers have little to no business in Action Steps, which is why trigger timing explictly states "after Step 5" in their timing descriptions, which is a reference to Duel Steps. (Pg 23 small rulebook)

Damage is resolved in Step 5 of the Duel / Step 3 of the Action. Step 2 of Actions / Pg37 is talking about completing the physical duel (as in flipping the cards and determining winner).

TL:dr

Damage = Step 5 of Duel - don't pay attention to Action Steps for Duel stuff

[Bodiless]

So does that mean that when it says damage is resolved during Step 3 of the action the book is incorrect? This issue is causing a certain amount of headache with how defensive triggers like Safe in My Bed and Defend Me work in our group, so it would be nice to get the sequence nailed down. If page 37 didn't say damage was resolved in Step 3, which is manifestly after all of the steps in Perform a Duel it would be a non-issue... but the book *does* say that.

 

Edit: The reason this matters for the argument is that if damage is in Step 3 of the Action, and if triggers occur during the Perform Duel step after step 5  (so during Action step 2), then as written triggers should take effect before damage. I accept that is not the intent, but I think as worded that is a legitimate reading of the rule.

[DocSchlock]

Step 2 of the Action is composed of Steps 1-4 of a duel.

Step 3 of Action is Step 5 of the duel.

You're reading it as if these things are separate entities, without realizing that they are concurrent.

[Bodiless]

That would certainly help resolve the issue - could you give me the page number for that?

[DocSchlock]

FAQ / Errata:
 When do “After Succeeding” Triggers occur?
A: They occur after Step 5 of the Action sequence, so after applying the results of the Action.

 If a model has an “After Damaging” Trigger which allows it to push/move and it kills a model with
Explosive Demise, can it use its Trigger to push/move away from the model it killed before taking
damage from Explosive Demise?
A: No. Explosive Demise happens when the model is killed, which would be during Step 5 of the duel
process (Determine Success, Core Rulebook pg. 33) and After Damaging Triggers occur after Step 5 (Core
Rulebook pg. 32). (1/1/15)

"This would happen during Step 5 of the duel
process (Determine Success) as results are applied during this step"

Actions don't damage twice. Either Step 3 of Action is Step 5 of Duel (since both resolve the same thing - results of an Action), or something big is broken in the core rules that even the lead designer hasn't noticed in 1+ year of being challenged on it repeatedly.

As I'll say again, the Action Steps are there to tell you how an Action procedes. Since the steps of a duel are inside an Action, the two Step Systems are not independent of each other, and are linked together in a concurrency that's easy to miss and easy to overthink.

[Bodiless]

I'm afraid that is not a very satisfying answer, at least in terms of explaining it to someone when it comes up in a game.

 

As you say above, in order to avoid the apparent contradiction you need to read something into the rules that is not actually stated, namely that Action step 3 and Duel step 5 are the same. Since Justin has weighed in repeatedly on how the action is intended to work I'm really not arguing that - that has been made clear. But I think if those two steps are meant to be equivalent it needs to go into the FAQ/Errata, because it is not obvious from the text unless there is some language that we haven't cited yet. And "because Justin said so on the forum" is also not a very satisfying answer to give someone. Especially in a tight game where one player feels like an advantage is being gained or lost as a result. 

[Bodiless]

As a follow-up to this, now that Justin's answer is officially unofficial again and indeed no longer present on the forum, I think this issue is entirely up in the air. Particularly in a tournament setting where people will have vested interests in the answer. I've looked a number of times and found no indication that the Action steps are meant to be read in anything other than a standard linear order: Step 3 comes after Step 2, and all substeps of Step 2 must be completed before moving on to Step 3.

 

I can't see how the presence of dealing damage in two separate steps of the timing sequence can be resolved by anything other than an errata. 

[the sadlyness]

Hopefully your TO has a firm grasp of the rules. The 3 step process in my opinion should be completely ignored. It plays no part in the rules. If the action has a duel you use the opposed/simple duel process. If the action does not have a duel then just do what it says. And if any timing issues pop up follow the timing shout out box.

Let's take a walk action for example. Declare and spend ap. Done easy. No duels needed so step 3. Resolve results. Maybe it needs to take a terrifying check do that now.

[Bodiless]

I think if we start picking and choosing which pieces of the rules as written that we are going to ignore we will end up with more confusion, not less. Especially if you then have to convince someone else that the part you left out is the correct one. 

 

For sake of argument, suppose I say that I think that the inclusion of apply damage in Step 2, part 5 is a clear text error of the copy-paste variety, given that the title of that step is "Determine Success" and that there is a whole section specifically devoted to Resolving Results which also mention resolving the damage flip. In which case defensive triggers, which occur as part of the duel and after Part 2, Step 5 (page 26 of my pdf rules) would occur prior to the damage flip. Using only the text of the rules and FAQ, and without resorting to unofficial information gleaned from Justin's answers here on the forum (in which he has said it is not meant to work this way), how would you rebut this?