Ogid

On 8/8/2021 at 5:36 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

@Ogid you once asked me to make Neverborn Marcus, and going 3-1-0 in a world series month (albeit an easier one) I think does a pretty good job of that! Have a look at the games from the month.

Feel free to ask me any further questions here, and if I get the energy I'll try to make a video! Winter energy levels tend to be a bit lower.

Ey, congrats and thanks for the feedback! I'll definitelly check those videos and the other thread you made about him when I get the time. I don't have much time to play nowadays so not sure how he is doing in GG2 but I'll interrogate you when I start playing seriously again

I guess a new Marcus profile is enough to pull me out of the shadows.

I have mixed feelings about this one tbh, but I see more positives than negatives tho:

The good: This version let him stack mutations on himself and be more aggressive, which is good because the rest of beasts are quite squishy. No more AP lost by just mutation bureaucracy as most mutations will be added using bonus action or abilities, which is a huge plus. Incentive to use Adaptive evolution as now those get recycled which will also give the cree free positives and suits, again very needed. As this version makes him more independent (he only need a few models to stack mutations on himself and by himself he seems able to both fight and score not like the other profile); this version seems to allow him to make better use of OOK/Versatiles. He seems very tanky versus guns which may allow him to have a better niche in the faction than the old one.

The bad: Not sure if SSC is going to be a big deal again or not. The integration with NVB is bad: No beastmaster and no adaptive evolution in all NVB beast make those worse with this version (which was a big draw to play him here) and with no beast able to put mutation on themselves in this faction the uses as second master are probably subpar.

Have to try it but looks promising, maybe in GG3 lol.

On 5/6/2021 at 2:37 AM, Roadhouse said:

She was better than very good. She was imbalanced. Def 6, can't be charged, 12wd model, that could potentially heal a single target 6 with a bonus action, had a Stat 6 2" 2/4/6, and a FF Arm ignoring gun with one of the strongest disruptive triggers in the game, Hole in the World. For 8ss.

She lost a Def, 2wds, and has to target a different thing with her bonus trigger but now her attack stays stat 6 and can heal. Her healing potential actually went up and she still has a ridiculous gun.

The nigh invulnerability and ease of her single target healing got nerfed *becuase they needed to be*

The damage of her melee was nerfed while its utility was buffed.

The fact that some players are saying her changes spell the end of Neverborn are indicative of their over reliance on her *becuase she was too good*

I've played her in GG2, she is still very strong.

Lol, I've never seen someone so excited (in the good sense) for nerf haha. Well, I guess it's better than the other alternative.

I still think you had your pink glases on. She was played all the time more for the good defenses she had (for this faction) and that she gave a support not other model offered; but those good defenses had holes (things that don't need to charge, jumpers, hand attack/trigger denial) and Eternal still needs a card, something not trivial with a lot of masters in this faction (12 Wds isn't accurate). And that's the botched part of the new profile imo; now models that can get around her defenses make her too risky to pick versus some factions/masters. And her utility was also lowered, but I adressed that in the other post.

Yeah, Marcus needs some love in purple. Aside some problematic design choices, he is definitelly balanced around ARC and here in NVB Zoraida does what he does but better. He is fun and challenging tho; for casual games I do recomend giving him a go.

On 4/29/2021 at 1:35 PM, Roadhouse said:

This 100%. She needed to be toned down. She is still playable and in keyword is the best way to play her, as it should be.

She was definitelly very good; the main problem is the lack of other models that do what she did or that can offer support now when hard counters to her are avaliable; but everyone's best toys got hit so yeah, we'll adjust.

On 4/29/2021 at 1:35 PM, Roadhouse said:

People also need to realize that of the models that got touched, Serena got a rebalance, most got outright nerfed. Yan Lo, Schtook, Leve, Somer: they all got a firm shove down in power level. 

Does taking the suit off Necropunk Leap open up new list building options or table strategies? Lol no

How bout an attack that can be Mimic'd that draws LoS through friendly models and has dope triggers? Yes, this is very cool, this is worth exploring.

This is the point I'm not getting... she is as nerfed as any other model, there is no "rebalance", just the nerf hammer doing its thing.

I think we value his new mele attack this very differently; this is a fun gimmick but there are much better things to Mimic... a 2/3/4 attack with no damage trigger nor built in trigger isn't something I'd dedicate 18+ SS in a list to spam... specially when there are more holes to jump through to attack like having the target near of a Nightmare... Twist reality is an actually better Mimic target.

On 4/24/2021 at 11:54 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Thanks, very helpful! There'll be another corner deploymnet next cycle, so I might save him for that.

Definitely won't go for assassinate. It is a fun casual league where we are all playing new masters, and I don't want to take away someone's experience of whatever master they ended up with xD

Marcus is a good master to play versus new players; it's easy to just focus on scoring instead of killing everything in sight and new players won't tipically go out of their way to counterpick him into mysery.

On 4/24/2021 at 12:54 PM, Deathknight Tactica said:

I played him as a second master to a Zoraida leader once. The game was so one sided(in my favor) that I basically refuse to do it again. 

I'd love to see his SS cost reduced and more SS moved into the totem just for this kind of synergies; that's hardly a meta strategy but can be fun and useful in the right game.

On 4/24/2021 at 12:59 PM, extremor said:

Definitely, absolutely and totally agreed...!!! Cats, adze, whisps and others are fast enough to get into enemy deployment and via leap/ambush can easily drop 2 markers each round. 
Claim jump is cojos beloved. Rude sight language for the win. 

Yep, however in the pool that was posted above the strategy might be problematic... those models aren't the sturdiest and the other player may deny the schemes AND the strategy by killing those.

In Turf Wars some of those might need to be replaced for things like the Grootslang, the Scorpious, Bears... less nimble models but still able to scheme and harder to kill.

Cojo works well in claim jump, but there are match ups where Marcus can't try to contest the center and that marks him even as a bigger objective that he already is.

I aplaude your enthusiasm... but the only good thing about Serena change is the fact the devs are trying to make factions less reliant in must picks; almost everything is a downgrade from the last version.

Better healer? No way, to funnel healing into a model now you have to jump through more holes than before and unless the other player is mindlessly throwing damage in your direction, that's way less useful to being able to patch up the one that the other player is trying to get killed.

Stat 6 tickle through Nightmares... cute, the 2/4/6 was way better and while Pulled here and there is a good trigger, she lost 2'' range and a lot of tankness; which was as good or better to defend in those strategies and to defend other models; so she has less control than before.

And while the defensive tech is still somewhat decent talking in general, she had her weaknessess doubled down; she is a easy kill for things like Manos, Shenlong, Seamus, Alyce, Cooper... 

The only thing I agree is that's the Serena we have now, no point in complaining; but there are few new posibilities here.

From these 2, the second one is the best for Marcus by far (Wedge is terrible with Marcus and the strat will cause an early clash in the centerline that won't benefice you... the schemes aren't bad but aren't sceptionally good for him neither) and it depends a lot on who you are going to face because the second one it's not a perfect Marcus pool; there are masters that can destroy him there.

Turf Wars isn't the best strategy for him but isn't unplayabe (Symbols and Leylines are way better); Marcus can reinforce quickly different areas of the board; just beware of masters that can kill your models quickly because that's other way to play this and some of his models are pure glass.

Assassinate might be a trap the other player falls for, they using resources chasing Marcus is good for you; getting the kill on an enemy Master with Marcus is possible but it needs an specific list and also outplaying the other one (or reckless play from the other side) so I'd rule this one out for your team. Breakthrough and Outflank are among his better schemes and Claim Jump might be doable depending on who you are facing (at least getting 1 cheeky point by racing the choosen model to the center should possible). Let them bleed is kind of neutral for him, the other player may be tempted to leave your models alive a bit longer to score this, that's good for you; and you have some control over it by shapechanging Myranda... but I wouldn't pick this versus most crews... with Marcus you either go for a quick kill or just control the other player with conditions and egagement ranges and leave him alone; long bloody brawls aren't his strenght.

Picking Breakthrough + Outflank it might work in that one, but again depending on who you are facing. If you can, save him for a game with either Symbols or Leylines, ideally Corner deployment (Standard as second best) and with good schemes for him.

1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

Aside from Collette herself, I fail to see how this Errata fixed the fact that ARC have a solution to everything, have 3 massively OP upgrades, and one of the best summoners in the game.

They are still good, but some of their top notch combos have been tonned down. Colette set up a kill teleporting a model across the entire map the first turn distance was more than halved, the mechanical rider reactivating herself or other powerhouses is also over... Also between the Focus changes and the Kandara's mantra change, Sandeep also got hit hard.

1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

You get 2 heals with a non-built in trigger for a single action on two different models.  Candy offers more options and the same healing unless you don't have a mask for one stone more.  I expect some early attempts to make Serena work followed by a lot of Candy play.

Serena is way weaker now and it's going to be a problem when condition removal is needed but the other player can deny Demises (things like Manos or Cooper for example)... but I've never liked a faction relying so hard on a model so maybe now we'll see other models coming or other adjustments where needed (in anohter year, that's the bad part tho...)

But for healing I have never liked Candy tbh (maybe only to heal models carrying her like the Rider or a Mature) and she can only help with conditions removing Stunned. Her healing range is quite low, it's a normal action and she is useless charging... getting her in position isn't efficient; also I had to choose between positioning and holding Candy activation for the aura or activating her early (when the healing is needed) and missposition her to heal (which leaves her very open to retaliation and guts her control and potential tankiness).

Not sold with that... If you have a list in mind that needs Serena but she isn't an option for who you are facing, just pick something more tanky or with their own healers; Fae, Puppets, Swampfiend... there are things that are not going to work anymore after an errata.

2 hours ago, extremor said:

Maybe I will try leaving cojo at home once in a while. Would miss the toss to get Marcus up the board first turn, but 10ss was always a huge price... dunno 🤷🏻‍♀️ but I like the idea of having adze + wotw or 2x wotw... if only you could use more than 2 camouflage.

If agression is needed, Cojo is still the best for the role; but now we'll have to have a Wotw following him around to feed him markers (which isn't that bad taking in count you may use the aura with the mele attack pushes). I'd also consider Hinamatsu now more seriously.

Those 2 might be more reliable now or at least eat up more resources if killed in mele. The bandersnatch is another one that got an advantage with this change as she inflicts distracted when burying.

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Ewwww, yeah, that's a big hit to that ability.

I've got Neverborn Marcus for the draft league, so will be brushing up on him. This thread is very useful!

Nice to hear! please share your experiences later

Yep, these changes make those 2 models better, but the Focused+2 limit is a bit hit to Cojo and he still has a ton of weaknesses... we'll see. Maybe after the Focuslypse Marcus is a bit more playable.

NVB got a few hits this GG, but after looking at others like ARC; I think NVB didn't got the sort sitck this time.

Dreamer was quite good, it's nice to see most top dogs taking some hits; I don't agree with all choices (Colette's one for example seems way overkill) but at least things are moving forward. The lack of EXP nerf did raise an eybrow for me tho.

About dreamer. The stitcheds summoning ban hurts but it's a bit countered with the other nerf; now that dreamer discard cards; the stitcheds are less needed to patch bad LD and puppets always went well with Nightmare so that's still a path to bring them. Also Elite Dreamer (few minions) was a thing and that seems to be the main strategy now. I don't like the 15SS cost specially after removing Stitcheds as summons, that probably kills him as a double master in most scenarios. Something to note is the Focused changes are actually quite good for Dreamer as he is decent at inflicting Distracted.

Serena was hit hard; but when condition removal and healing is needed, she is still probably a decent pick (as long as there is no easy way to deny demises for the other crew). We'll see.

The biggest change this GG is the focused one by far; that is going to change a lot the strats and roles of some models. Hinamatsu for example, that was already quite good, got a very big buff having an AOE Focused removal and being able to stone distracted with her Lure. And about Focused, NVB with the BBS still has a very good Focused engine, specially now that other big contenders like Tanukis or Toshiro got that option removed or weakened. Only Cojo got hurt by that, maybe Nekima as she could pile a good ammount of it between pulses and pustules.

I'm honestly a bit surprised a change as big as the focused one happened without an edition change and with no adjustements... definitelly picking a faction and not cherripicking masters is the way to go... it's much easier to adjust to things like this.

Again, We'll see.

1 hour ago, MrPieChee said:

I really can't see Marcus/dual faction masters being able to use both factions upgrades. It goes against the current design of the factions. Even it was on the cards, which I doubt it is, I can't see how this is better than giving Marcus an upgrade for it.

Arc Marcus already gets Wings which gives the best part of the pre-errata inhuman reflexes - having a mutation that does the same thing for an arcanist upgrade isn't much of a stretch.

Anyway, as I said before, its an easy fix, but not one I like much (but its much better than giving Marcus access to 6 general upgrades). 

 

There's lots of talk of lead lined coat ham stringing Guild. I wonder if Marcus can only move forward after Arcanist upgrades get changed. I wonder if just getting rid of attuned from the SSC still leaves it worth 2SS? It obviously won't be worth it on lots of models its currently taken on...

Balancing a game like this one is hard but after thinking about this particular issue more than once, the shared faction upgrades are literally the only way I see to balance well both sides of this crew. A NVB model that alone could put this crew on par would have to be very OP and the last thing this crew needs is another must pick. A mutation "fixing" this would force players to go for that one in most situations, thus neutring the point of getting the best upgrade for the scenario and giving him only a few playable lists... I could be wrong here, but I don't see those as good options.

Also Malifaux is full of crews breaking rules, this perk would be just another instance of that and by letting only the out of faction upgrades on Chimera (or in chimera + beasts) and as a leader only ability, you know those will be mostly in models that already can use them so there shouldn't be much room to break things (instead of a NVB player getting a Mature with SSC or an ARC getting his Emissary or Kudra with IR to name 2 potential powerful synergies).

SSC is a big part of ARC tho, so definitelly not in favor of removing/nerfing that upgrade. Also even sharing upgrades ARC still has the upper hand in SS generation anyway, with the Miners and his Rider may also help with this playstile by giving those models extra activations; that empower this playstile way more than anything in NVB.

I don't have a problem with crews relying a lot of some of it faction's upgrades, but in this case it's problematic because of the dual faction nature of Marcus. It is specially important because the crew cannot rely on their SS users to do the heavy lifting AND it can also solve part of the crippling problems of the crew (unreliable, resource hungry and no backbone); other ARC dual faction masters also suffer a bit by it, but all of those may rely on their henchmans and Masters way more than this crew or aren't as restricted as this one so the other factions advantages really make them playable.

Also this plus a few buffs could also give Marcus a niche, right now there are better crew for his good pools in both factions (Colette/Sandeep or Zoraida/Nekima for example; hell, even Hinamatsu could be a better pick than him in NVB); by giving him some really unique options (like Ill Omen+2 or high ping but glassy Initiates with IR in ARC), he could stand a chance to be a legit pick at least in some scenarios.

However this is just the tip of the iceberg, more of his mechanics need some work; right now his crew tries to be a bubble crew, an scaling crew with the upgrades and a mobile hitty/schemy crew at the same time and it fails at the three. His crew gets steamrolled by any half decent bubble crew, any other fast crew either outpunches or outscheme them, relying so heavily on charges make counterpicks crippling and his upgrades loses against any other scaling mechainc (summons, tokens, LD...). And even other simmilar mechanics are clearly superior and more versatile (see McCabbe artifacts giving fast and working on OOK workhorses like Samurais or Jorogumos or Asami's Flicker being active from minute 1, not requiring so many resources and being immune to shenanigans while the master AND totem are alive).

He needs to specialize a bit more, trying to be so good at so many thing will leave either an OP crew able to play every pool or an underdog like this one.

24 minutes ago, extremor said:

I fought von stook yesterday. I had a pretty hard time due to his „no upgrades“ aura and I thought that if adaptive evolution moved to the upgrade cards v.S. Would be a really hard counter. Esp with Anna lovelaces „no place“ aura. 

Honestly RES shuts down Marcus at so many levels that for me Marcus is a big no no into that faction (at least from the purple side)

On 2/1/2021 at 9:56 AM, Harlekin said:

If NVB get another Versatile (or non-Chimera) Beast, it won't be any problem at all as it won't have any impact on a Arcanist Marcus crew. 

And yes, the Obeys are only one of Marcus' problem. Lack of survivability compared to other bubble crews (which the crew should not (fluff: stalking hunters) but has to be (for the effects/ressources)).

Maybe getting an 7 Stones Summoner (Enforcer; similar to the Forgotten Marshal) could help to give the crew a bump. If he/she could summon Minions up to maybe 7 Stones, the Molemen, Corrupted Hounds and Rattlers might suddenly see more playtime and the crew in general would get more ressources in terms of AP? Some Myranda Crocket who calls in smaller beasts again and again would absolutely fit the eco warriors theme in my book.

I don't think NVB Marcus could be fixed with only a few NVB exclusive models, and even if it could, that would railroad the list into a few must picks to patch the holes... no thanks...

Yes agree totally in that point, Marcus mechanics are all over the place and just doesn't work as intended.

And about the summoning, it could be a way but right now he already lacks the resources and I don't think we need more summoners (plus if this new summoner is avaliable for blue, then again NVB is in the loss because no way to get the trigger if he is an enforcer).

On 2/1/2021 at 2:14 PM, MrPieChee said:

Arc Marcus being better comes down to attuned and soulstone generation. The simple solution is to create an mutation that does the same/similar. I'm not a huge fan of this, but it's an easy fix.

I'm not a big fan of this as it seems like a patch that forces NVB to use that one and offer little to ARC. I'd rather see both sides being able to put the other faction's upgrades in chimeras (and maybe also in beasts). This would fix it giving both sides of the crew new useful perks.

On 2/1/2021 at 4:55 PM, extremor said:

I don’t think that’s a solution. To me the Cerberus would be nearly as good as before just because it still leaps. Leap is a very powerful action. 

I just wish to nerf the Cerberus to an even level with SRM, Rougarou (tBW, Groot) so each of them is specialized. This means cutting his leap. and then have a mutation with leap. I think redesigning the Mutations and one or two tweaks here and there  is the easiest way to balance the crew.  And maybe get rid of the „all mutations are plentiful 2“ idea. Why aren’t there once only mutations and plentiful 3 mutations... this would open things up: like one mutation with ruthless, one with leap, 2 with marker removal, 3x shrug off, infect trigger, maybe a spitting ranged attack, intimidating authorities (in a beastly way),1-2x terrifying, etc etc etc. 
 

Soooo many ideas. Soooo many possibilities ... like Lego... creating individual beasts...

Tbh I think Cerberus is at the level of the other beasts in NVB but maybe it's my playstile; it only goes out of hand in ARC thanks to that upgrade. In NVB Rougarou is tankier while still dangerous with the right upgrade and can do things the cat can't (like using that push to move defenders out of the way or being a model able to get rid of conditions in a crew severly punished by that) or the Grootslang being able to defend several places at once and control foes with range 2 and slow. The cat is schemy and fast, but go down very quickly even with mutations and his damage output isn't that great without being able to buy the suit and getting free positives thanks to SC. In a faction where every crew can grow a Mature if they want in turn 1 I don't think the cerberus is something to call home about tbh.

And about the leap change for a wattered down version of it... the cerberus would still be a model able to dish out 15 damage to a single target in a turn in ARC getting SS out of it and being able to use SS to reduce damage in ARC while still having all the issues in NVB... I don't really think hitting that is the way to go, it'd make both version worse (hitting the ARC harder) without really solving too much.

And yeah, leap in an upgrade would be beyond OP XDD; that is too good.

On 2/1/2021 at 4:55 PM, extremor said:

I just love Marcus the way he is!!!

On 2/2/2021 at 10:45 AM, MrPieChee said:

I thought the point of this thread was that Marcus isn't ok as he is - he's way below the curve in Neverborn, and not great in Arcanists...

There is room for both :). I have a ton of fun with Marcus and I really like how he plays, but at the same time the glaring weaknesses make him a suboptimal pick everywhere. So yeah, the idea of this thread is trying to fix his problems and giving him more viable lists without changing him too much or making him the new OP crew.

1 hour ago, Harlekin said:

Well, Leap and Onslaught is what we bring the Cerberus for. If we take any from it the Marcus crew looses even more reliable options. Giving it Pouncing Strike instead might fit the theme really good, though. But the Cerberus would definitely loose its well-defined role of a hunter of lone Scheme runners, then.

 

Yes, that model is awesome; but the point is it's so awesome that makes everything else outclassed. Want to scheme? Cerberus. Want to kill something away from Marcus? Cerberus. Put a SC in the cat and it becomes very reliable killing things and getting back the SS used to kill those things. And this makes it also quite akward for NVB Marcus, anything that will help Marcus in purple will make it absolutely nuts in blue... Balancing both sides it's problematic with this one just considering how much the upgrades impact this crew.

Cojo has a simmilar problem. Want to fight near of Marcus or have something that stop the other player form just storming in? There is no better choice than Cojo well stacked with Focused; and he has also a lot of utility with Toss and the marker removal.

IDK, maybe tweaking the cat into an enforcer (only 1 per crew and maybe even of cost 9 to avoid Myranda shapesifting) and reducing it to only 1 will help to keep it under control instead of the trigger change...

1 hour ago, Harlekin said:

Marcus (Chimera) comes with potential for mobility, card draw, healing, focus, damage output... So, he (his Keyword) looks really impressive on first glance. But he imho is a bit too much of a Jack of All Trades and lacks reliability. Most things are situational and/or circumstantial. The beasts alone don't really compensate enough for his lacking focus/reliability. 
But the idea you mentioned earlier of having Adaptive Evolution on every one of his Upgrades might really work wonders here without changing anything else. Thus, those beast would start to blend into the Keyword more and some more synergies would result. 
Not sure if this would be enough but as of now I think it is.

Yeah, totally agree; the first time I looked at his card I was also impressed; but then in the table everything wasn't that shinny haha. The damage is definitelly there, but it's too unreliable; the card draw aura is too small, favored the opposite playstile he should be doing and can't sustaim him putting upgrades and obeying models around; in a decent fight he folds like paper. I made him work with a Colette-like playstile, quite far for the hunter style he seems to have.

I have to give other users credit for the AE in upgrades to be fair; but that will also need some tweaking; a simple obeyish ability could make a beast discard 2 upgrades; and upgrades are too costly to use AE all the time so this advantage wouldn't be that good. This is also tricky as it might push some OOK beasts over the edge if this is reworked... but with the actual iteration it'd be probably fine.

IDK, maybe we'll get a surprise in the next GG and the devs figured out the perfect solution; but I don't have much hope this gets fixed soon tbh.

1 hour ago, extremor said:

I would be fine with Cojo being staple. Saber is very lame imo. Without its leap I wouldn’t take it (NVB-Marcus) -so switching Leap to an upgrade would allow Marcus Keyword to be way more flexible. 

EDIT: yes my lists consist of Cojo, Myranda, 1-2 Saber, -100% of all games I played so far ~ 8 (I‘m still new to Marcus) and I wouldn’t drop any of them.

I think I talked about this in the past... but my take would be change Saber Onslaught for another mask trigger that wouldn't allow him to stack 15 damage in 1 model; that plus SC make 90% of the roster redundant.

Cojo is hard to change without destroying him so maybe allow his totem to be extra stones for beasts or maybe allow Marcus' call of the wild to make beasts charge ignoring the once per turn (or perform any attack not just charges), that's one of his niches.

And Marcus feels like a 12-13SS Master... he could use some power shifted from himself (or some buffs)

1 hour ago, extremor said:

I would love to see Marcus being independent from versatiles/ook. With the mutation mechanic it would be possible. Which ook/versatile do you play to counter opponents? Or what abilities does Marcus lack, so you need to take ook/versatile? 

It's hard because there are some crews and factions that warp the game a lot... I don't think he could adapt to every posible situation in this game just with beasts and mutations, at least without significant changes.

My OOK/Versatiles? Serena, Hina + WW (with bander); maybe some woes if I expect conditions (Candy/The Carver). There could be other good picks like Rider or BBS and potential double masters but my Marcus picks are very targeted (specific factions and pools) to avoid having to pick too many of those and face hard counters tbh so I've not explored those yet (and I pick him in those because it's a master I enjoy playing, not because he is the best in those pools).

Marcus lacks (from my NVB experience) backbone, reliability, ability to respond to certain masters/techs, scaling, condition removal, resource generation and decent early agression potential. A few versatiles help with some, but not all the problems...

To me Marcus has 4 main problems:

• Too many must picks; for a master that is all about versatility, he has very fixed lists if you want good results. Cojo and the saber are the worst offenders.
• Weak mechanics; it seems the devs were so afraid this guy were too good. The fact than an obey can make a beast discard 2 upgrades or that he needs to scale his models but loses agains every other scaling mechanic in the game is problematic; he is also very resource starved. An stunned Marcus is beyond useless...
• He cannot adapt; he works so bad with non-beast/chimera models that if the keyword doesn't have an answer for an enemy master, he is in a terrible position. Again ironic taking in count his theme. He needs to be able to support non-beast.
• Unbalance between ARC and NVB. Either bother balancing both sides or just leave him as an ARC Master and give NVB other master; he is only playable in very limited pools and he isn't even the best in those, right now even Hina leader is better than him.

On 1/19/2021 at 8:04 PM, ShinChan said:

I would like a design change that allows Marcus to put upgrades only on Chimera. This way, the non-chimera beast could see small buffs here and there, making them more competent in their keywords while being able to operate with Marcus, without the need of putting upgrades on them.

This would be the last nail in the coffin for NVB Marcus.

On 1/20/2021 at 3:53 AM, Jinn said:

Grootslang is way better than the Mauler for mostly the same role. 

This catched my eye... those 2 are quite different imho. Mauler is a tarpit with good combat potential (quite nasty potential in the right set up actually) and a decent lodestone carrier thanks to laugh off. The grootslang is a tanky scheme runner that gives good board control and that may hope to control some foes without getting tabled too fast if needed, but he cannot tank, carry the lodestone nor attack as the mauler.

26 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Next month's tournament for the vassal world series uses the Iron Scorpius format (can't take the same master more than once), and it got me thinking...

Has anyone tried a variant of Iron Scorpius where you can't take the same model more than one round? So you could use two shieldbearers in round 3, but then couldn't use them in rounds 1, 2, or 4?

It seems like it'd be an interesting way to ensure a lot more keyword models see play, since the powerful versatile and OOK options wouldn't be spammed every round. On the other hand, some factions might just cease to be viable entirely (Guild?) and some would take a big hit (Arcanists, TT?)

Agree, very interesting concept and it'd also be informative to check the internal balance of the factions and see how hard factions depends on some picks.

I also think Guild would be terrible in that format, all their competitive lists use the same models over and over again and those would be gone from turn 2 (but maybe some gifted player could surprise us, who knows). I'm not that concerned about TT or ARC tbh. TT have several strong masters that can be strong picks without much OOK on top of a strong versatile pool and also quite a few ways to get healing and Focused; ARC also have several strong choices, a good number of supports that may last the entire tournament and SS cache gives them a lot of versatility to adapt.

My all time group of friends got into this, they picked ARC, RES and BAY and bought me a second hand Misaki crew as a gift. I got talked into this game and spend a bit of time browsing the different factions.

I really liked ARC and RES looked quite strong but I didn't want to repeat a faction we have; from the other factions I was on the fence between TT and NVB (I really liked Tara from OUT, but most of that faction wasn't that eye catching to me). I ended picking the purple side because I liked Dreamer and Pandora's aesthetic (I didn't know how good Dreamer was at that time), the variety of aesthetic and playstiles of this faction and was the faction where I liked most masters (and I saw from minute 1 that to be somewhat competitive I had to choose 1 faction, not a few masters from different factions); also I don't mind playing more squishy crews (in other skirmish games I usually played the fast/caster/trick heavy factions) and here I could still access to Marcus and some Puppets from ARC that I really liked.

In retrospect I'd had been fine with TT because I have been liking their master more and more (and also kind of I'm because between the ARC player and I we own most of that faction already and have no problem lending our models to each other); but I'm quite happy with my choice.

On 12/27/2020 at 9:57 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Ressers in general are a rough matchup for most of Neverborn, unfortunately. We're a fast, grindy melee faction which doesn't line up well for Neverborn. But yeah your reasons for Marcus seem especially grim!

Yep, RES is a very solid faction and NVB isn't that well equiped to deal with them; it's still doable with the right crews and tech picks, but definitelly not a good match up.

Marcus is a personal favourite mostly for the theme of the crew and its potential versatility; but has a few critical design sins that really shows up when a faction can exploit them and when his beasts aren't enough. Still playable into the right game, but definitelly not the best option for anything. 

On 12/28/2020 at 10:17 AM, extremor said:

Yes focus 4... 3 by mark territory and an additional concentrate. Wisp 2 markers and OI 1 marker... do this went smoothly. And to me one Wisp is nearly set. I love the possibilities of a Lure. In my first two games I didn‘t include them and I missed messing with my opponents plan incredibly.

Then again wp; stacking Focused with him the first turns makes a big difference and the Wisp is perfect for the task and yeah, it's very rare when I don't include 1 Wisp in the crew for all the utility they bring. It seems you are all set with him now!

How the cerberus and the OI performed in that game btw?

57 minutes ago, extremor said:

It turned out a draw: 5:5! The Kirai player took: Kirai, Ikirio, Jakuna, Datsue Ba, Bone Pile (god, how I hate that one), 2x Onryo, lost love, 2x seishin. Then he summoned Shekome and Goryo in turn 1&2... 

 

I took: Marcus, Jack, Cojo, Myranda, Grootslang, Cerberus, Order initiate, WotW

My opponent had a hard time killing Grootslang just to get Myranda shapeshifting into Grootslang afterwards.. O I loved that look on his face! The game was quite close and the last few flips were crucial! If inly my Rougarou managed to get the intimidating roar, I would have won.

 

Oh and by the way: Cojo was a real butcher this game. the camo on him worked well and he had a good time wrestling those ghosts!!! 😄

Good job! Getting a tie in that game considering most your models give up 2-3 Bounty Tokens and a few of those are tricky to deal with means you really used the crew well and picked well your objectives; also that healing denial can really hurt you if it connects. Even without facing specific counterpicks that's not an easy game 👍

Yeah, Cojo is the MVP when damage is needed, and also good job choosing Camo over Wings this game, otherwise Goryos charging several times would had destroyed him (plus Kirai's crew has a few mid/long range abilities). Did you gave him Focused+2 to +4 the first turn with the Wisp and other model(s)?

I don't pick Marcus for that strategy and definitelly not versus RES. That faction can deal with him too well, here you have the full reasoning in case you are interested in reading about that.

3 hours ago, extremor said:

Note, that I‘m not an expert on Marcus as I‘m still learning his skills... after yesterdays match (public enemies vs kirai) in which I mostly turned Myranda inro Grootslang (to bind Ikirio in 2“ Engagement) I hard the following idea for the next game:

Wow, Marcus vs RES in Public Enemies, that's bold haha. How did it worked out? Did the Kirai's player picked anything OOK to try to counter you? How did both lists looked like?

But good use of Myranda tho, the Grootslang form is great for that, controling dangerous models that otherwise will deal a lot of damage to your crew. And in most cases the place let her disengage so you can charge and engage (and maybe slow) 2 of them.

3 hours ago, extremor said:

I want to use the beast shape to move Myranda so she can use her own ap healing. Therefor Rougarou seem legid as they are HtW and have deadly pursuit. And in the meantime Order Initiate or Marcus can move her with call... 

On 10/24/2020 at 2:35 PM, Ogid said:

 I recomend you to give her at least 2 defensive mutations if you plan to use her shapeshifting a lot and activate her latter in the turn to not have her stuck into a beast mode for too long

I think camo and wings are best to have here, right? Since a replace is a place and therefor a movement and she probably wont get the shielded +2 via plates. Do I get that correct?

Both correct. Camo + Wings are, in most cases, the best pair to keep a model that you want to keep unengaged alive because it minimices the oportunities of the other player to attack it. And places will disable the Shielded+2.

However mind that with both places plus the push you'll be moving around 7,2''; so maybe you won't need to commit more AP to move her or you can also try to use a cheaper model for this, like a Wisp if you have one in position. That idea is good, but be careful not to use too many resources moving her around unless you really need to.

14 hours ago, MrPieChee said:

How are slate ridge maulers rated, in general, but mainly with neverborn Marcus?

 

Sabertooth's get talked about a lot, but not much gets said about the equally costed maulers.

They are a lot slower, and to get min three they need to be 4 health or below, so I'm guessing armour is a must have mutation?

I like them more in ARC where combat builds works better and they also have a fun gimmick: Pick Amina/Toni (Grit always active) and give one of them SS cache and Horns... the saber build is better, but that one can get people off guard as it creates an surprisingly tough bubble for a Marcus crew.

Not sure what the general consensus is, in my case in NVB I like more the faction's beasts that are better to just outmaneouver or get objectives; the bear has a place as a Lodestone carrier thanks to Laugh Off versus crews with a lot of displacements. I like it tho, it's kind of a jack of all trades, it's tanky, has some damage in the right circunstances and also scheming potential but I like the alternatives better for my playstile.

I don't tend to brawl with Marcus so aside for that lodestone role I don't tend to pick them a lot. I can see a role for them in more brawly builds, they are a decent Serrated holders to put Adversary early in the turn and engage some enemy models; they take a bit of effort to kill so are safer going first and the rest of the Keyword needs badly that buff to be able to do something. Just make sure to save cards to patch him up. Other models like The Beast Within the Scorpious (or even the Jackalope or Marcus himself) are also good for this role tho.

As for mutations... the bear is a model that can use most mutations well, Armor goes well but it's far from must have imho:

• Armor: Armor and H2W stacks very well and this can keep him alive with the Grit active.
• Wings: A model with 2'' engagement and BJ is great to control enemy crews with mostly 1'' mele range and can disengage him to charge with Horns.
• Serrated: A tanky model that can go in early to put Adversary and not get instantly destroyed.
• Horns: Decent moderate damage and with the Grit active they have high damage potential (not consistent unless you discard mutations tho).

So just pick one of the above or combine these to make the bear into what you need that game:

• Tarpit: Armor + Wings
• Enabler: Wings/Armor+ Serrated
• Brawler: Wings/Armor + Horns (Wings is probably better than Armor as it let him disengage to charge with Horns to maximice the damage, but depending on the other crew Armor may also work well)

Hope it helps!

I'd also say go for the 2 boxes with the Minions (+Serena) first, then expand from there. All other models you can get are good, so keep completing the keyword. For a new player Teddy is probably quite straightforward to play but both Carver and the Spiders opens a lot of good options for him; so I wouldn't wait much to get those.

After that you could take a look at the versatile pool, Dreamer plays well with Puppets (because Stitcheds are puppets, Teddy is a construct, Dreamer can stagger, WW can summon Puppets...), so Vasilisa+Dolls and Hinamatsu go well with him. The Rider is also a very popular pick with any crew.

If after picking all that you still want more NVB, just picking the Pandora's core will give you a very playable crew thanks to the overlaped models with Dreamer and the versatiles.

I personally I'm a fan of the Black Blood Shaman into Matures as a tech pick in this faction (for both Focused and scheming power), which is a tech path that mixs well with Puppets. But that would require you to pick Nekima Core and 1 of his Boxes; so I'd say leave that for much later, you can play Nightmare without that quite well.

1 hour ago, Warharan said:

How many models is preferred (needed) with 'lucid dreams' initially at setup?
Are daydreams any good to begin with? (or would you rather summon these?)

Any other tips/help/guide much appreciated.
I am still trying to warp my mind to the (for me) new rule-set which is Malifaux and not much is obvious to me atm.
(but hope to get there. eventually)

For an standard Dreamer crew, I'd say pick 2 or 3 Daydreams, 1-2 extra minions (1 Stitcheds, 2 Stitcheds or 1 Stitched + 1 Insidious; do not hire Alphs), fill the rest with Henchman/Enforcers/upgrades and save a good cache (7+, the cache is important to have the suits to summon and to keep your Henchman and Master alive). That will give you a strong crew with good scaling but still able to fend off early agression.

Then play around with that formula, including more minions you'll have an stronger scaling, but you'll be much more vulnerable early (for example try 1 strong Henchman like Hinamatsu or the Carver + Serena + all minions). Going all stars will give you good models but weaker scaling; each one of those could be good depending on who you are facing.

Daydreams are better hired than summoned (summoned they take a lot of summoning upgrades and are vulnerable being deployed that close to the other player), also they are a very cheap source of card removal that you may want to take advantage from turn 1. You may hire 2 to summon the first turn an Alph or an Stitcheds + Daydream, or you may hire the 3 of them and summon the first turn an stitcheds or an Insidious. After that point the only reason I find to summon them again is if I got a high card to summon that let me summon something+Daydream or very situationally in the last turn if I've lost the 3 of them AND the deck is hot AND I need to attack something with big armor/low defense; then I could consider summoning the 3 of them to try to attack it (after removing most weak card, their damage isn't that bad).

In general try to experiment with different models and see what works for you and what not.

Dreamer is one of the best Masters in the game in terms of power; with his keyword and a few versatiles you should be able to compete regardless of the pool. However mind he can be opressive for new players if you are starting together with other players; Nightmare is a crew that brawls very well and that if it's not put in check early, can snowball very heavily. That's the doom of new players that won't know how to pressure him and could try to brawl too much instead of trying to get VPs. Go easy on other new players.

Hope it helps!

8 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

I get your overall point, but most of these aren't counters at all.

Cooper isn't a counter to Euri.
McCabe and Cooper aren't counters to Titania.
Ngaatoro(either one) isn't a counter for arcanist beasts.
Nexus and the Nightsilk can't do anything with enemy web markers, so going Bandersnatch+WW into them isn't a problem at all.

I'm not 100% sure tbh, as this is still not curated info; I'd be interested in your reasoning or how would you build for facing those masters to start having ideas of how to face that faction. My reasonings:

Cooper can bypass H2K, Demises and ignore Cover; he and his entire keyword can also get a double  to damage once per activation if needed which is enough to get through H2W versus not-SS users (this also gives the crew the flexibility to go for min damage but with  in one attack, which helps with the consistency).

• The above goes around the 2 things that keeps most models from the Savage Keyword in the table (H2K that gives time to trigger the healing and Cover) and his keyword can give him extra shoots in the right circunstances . It seems able to kill gigants faster than other keywords (I'd say he can kill a minion per turn very consistently, even Geryons), which goes against their (supposedly) atrittion heavy gameplay. It doesn't help that Savages are massive modles so hidding them isn't exactly easy. Maybe going heavy into OOK/Versatiles, he could be a legit pick, but I'm not Euri player.
• For Titania this is the same, his Keyword relies on H2W to survive and he (and his entire keyword) can bypass that; in this case the underbrushes hinders him, but he has access to good marker removal and even shooting through concealing he can still pull off a double  to damage versus a model with Adversary (which he handles for free during the starting phase btw). Ignoring Demises makes Killjoy (and Serena) a worse pick, which also make picking him to boost Titania damage a worse option; the good marker removal of the faction also make the Emissary a worse pick as his markers are hard to put on the table and are another thing boosting that crew damage.

McCabe and his crew have good tools to ignore the underbrush markers (Unimpeded, Expert Getaway, Depths of Malifaux, Secret Passage, Favorable Terrain, in the Repeating Rifle...); also his Timeworn blade bypass most defensive tech of Titania's crew, and that putting aside all the damage that Master can do with all the TNs. His crew basically counters the 2 things that make Titania good, all the hindarance from the markers and being though to kill. Tho for a direct clash he will be probably more dangerous in TT. Again, adapting and going for OOK/Versatile crew might work, but in that case another Master could had been a better pick.

Ngaatoro costs 9, has bully and an obey; this makes it a suited Obey versus all 8SS beasts (which are all but Cojo), which also have bad Wp values. Any beast with Adaptive Evolution getting obeyed will be forced to discard 1 mutation upgrade (2 if the beast has Onslaught); that is a massive hit for Marcus (and even Cojo could be targeted if the other player gets a RJ). It's true Ngaatoro isn't very mobile, so that's the only saving grace that Marcus might try to exploit, but it creates a huge bubble where you don't want to have any model with that ability. 

Revising the wording you seem to be right with the last one... it says "Friendly Web Markers"... I had assumed those abilities worked regardless who dropped the markers (like happens with Pires or Ice Pilars)... good catch, ty!