Nephetina

But with the restriction of once per activision and the problem, that the enemy desides what aura affected his model, it is to limited and complicated, i think. If your oponent knows Pandoras tricks, he use your amount of auras against you. But mayby that´s a problem how auras works in general.

Why are we gone from this...

Misery: After  an  enemy  model  within  4 Cheats  Fate,  it  suffers  1  damage  after resolving the current Action or Ability.

...to this...?
Misery: Once per Activation. After an enemy model  within  6  gains  Stunned  or  a Condition listed in this model's Opportunist
Ability, this model may either move it up to 2" or have it suffer 1 damage.

The crew has many ways to move the enemy around, so i don´t think the 2" are really helpful and alternative 1 damage per activation, if stunned (also other conditions, but mostly stunned) will be applied, is really meh. 1 damage if the enemy model cheates fate is less complicated and more effective. It works in many ways and keeps Pandoras "Don´t do that!" without the negative experience, that the enemy models can do nothing.

The Scales of Justice got back the old effect, so i hope the woes will too.

My second point concerns opportunist. Not a "must change" for me like Misery, but a thing i thinking of. I understand that the general condition removal from opportunist was too strong against condition-based crews, but remove stunned (again, mostly stunned) that i have to give to an enemy first, do feel like "let us cook something to trash it and then call the delivery service..." ok, not my best metaphor, but i think you understand what i am trying to say.
Would it be broken, if woes gain a against models with stunned, without remove this condition? So it would be half a focus as a cherry on top of giving the enemy the stunned condition.

I know, some players seem to be ok with the current Pandora, but with just her key-crew and no other models, they stand behind many other crews, i think. If i am wrong and most other Pandora-players like her crew how it is now, than i let the cute little Butterfly (calls hope) fly away and begin searching for a kind new owner to care for my Woes. As it is, she isn't the Pandora that i used to know or want to play ... too complicated, too unfunny, nothing reminding the mind games, she seems to be famous for in fluff.

To make them attractive to hire, they could gain a mechanic to create corpse marker. Mayby the Grave Robber action (Drop a Corpse Marker anywhere within range.), the Dismember trigger for the jaws (Enemy Living, Undead, or Beast only. Drop a Corpse Marker into base contact with the target) or the Regurgitate action (This model suffers 2 damage. Drop a Corpse Marker in base contact with this model.) if Grave Robber is to strong for a 3SS Model, which would be okay since the corrupted hounds have regenerate +1 . Just something that works against crews that don´t drop corpse markers.

Thanks for the fast aswers. :)

Ok, that means if an enemy Model in two misery-auras gains stun from the first action of Sorrow A, lost it because of oportunist and gains it again in the second action from Sorrow A, the enemy Model is affected two times from misery. Once from Sorrow A and once from Sorrow B, right?

And the player with the auras desides wich one triggers, not the player of the affected model?

In this case i had played it right.

6 hours ago, solkan said:

 The thing about auras is that you don't have to figure out who the aura is "targeting" or who the aura is originating from or anything like that.  It all comes down to "Which model is the aura doing stuff to?"  All of the auras get resolved, but each model can only be affected by one of the auras.

The rules say this:

If Model X is within range of three Misery auras generated by Sorrows A, B, and C...

Model X gains Stunned.  That 'triggers' all three Misery auras.  Because all three of those auras are going to do stuff to Model X, only one of them is going to get resolved.  The player controlling Model X chooses Sorrow B's aura to get resolved.  Then Sorrow B's controller resolves that Misery aura, choosing whether to move Model X or have Model X suffer 1 damage.  The other two auras don't affect Model X this time.

This process repeats every single time that Model X gains Stunned or one of the listed Conditions:  Gain the condition, choose one Misery aura to be affected by, and ignore the others.

Doesn't matter who, what, or when the condition is applied.

If a model would be affected by multiple Auras of the same name (i.e., if the aura would change its game state in some way), then it is only affected by one such Aura of its controller’s choice.

I think 'its controller' refers to aura not to the model. So the controller of the auras would deside, wich one affected the enemy model.

But if all auras get triggerd from a condition in the first action, than in the second action they cant do anything, because Misery is just once per activision.

And if 2 obeyed Models recieve a condition and trigger diferent auras, than just the first would be affected, because the action from the second model is the same activation from the obeyer...

That makes misery realy bad. 1damage if an enemy cheats Fate was easier and more usefull.

The wording is confusing to me.

Life  Leech: When  an  enemy  model  starts its Activation within  4, this model Heals 1 and the enemy model suffers 1 damage

If one enemy activates in 3 Auras from Life Leech, it suffers 1dmg and every Model that generates one of this 3 Auras, heals 1.

Misery: Once per Activation. After an enemy model  within  a8  gains  Stunned  or  a Condition listed in this model's Opportunist Ability, this model may either move it up to 2" or have it suffer 1 damage.

The Wording from Misery seams similar. "...this model may either move it up to 2" or have it suffer 1 damage"
This Aura seems to targeting the model, that generates it and instead of healing with Life Leech, it move or damage the enemy.

So, if one enemy recieves stun inside the range of 3 Misery Auras, could you for example move that enemy 2" and have him suffer 2 damage? And if not, does it mean, that the enemy is the Target and after it will be moved or damaged, could you use opportunist to remove that condition and give the target another stun to let annother Sorrow (or something else) let misery trigger again? Or can that only happen, if Misery is triggered by different conditions?

And what if a condition is applied outside from an activision? (e.g. Start/End-Phase)

3 hours ago, Hawkoon said:

What makes you think it's final? If they didn't want our feedback anymore they wouldn't need to release these rules.

They will most likely do further internal testing and tweaks before release.

This is not the end, but we will not get any more rules to test before release.

(Kyle said: And with that, we’re excited to announce that this will be the last update before we get ready to launch Malifaux Third Edition. We will be keeping the Open Beta forums available for a time to help catch grammar issues and other minor mistakes, but there will not be any more overhauls done to Crews or models. We will be still making some slight adjustments in the background before we hit the print button, but these changes will be a matter of changing a stat number here or there, and not rewriting or restructuring how a Keyword works as we have done in the last few weeks. )

That dosn´t seems to give a chance to a thousand-cut Bubble or other changes, but just stat-adjustment.

For me, it feals like DMH... Its not really Pandora, but you can play it. Why not the version, that is written in the description of Pandora? ( Her thematic crew reinforces this control with the Misery ability, which damages enemy models who Cheat Fate within its aura. ) This was thousand cuts. Oportunist is a funny idea, but fokus did this job better, because i just not want to take away stunned, after i finally applied it to a model.

But now opinions don´t matter anymore, because it´s the final. sadly...

On 2/25/2019 at 12:10 PM, Gesuma said:

With the pushing of your opponents models it seems like some hazardis terrain in the Woe crew would be a good fit? Pit of endless Woes: giving stunned and or +1 damage or something?

A similar idea came to my mind, after some games with Rasputina. Her style realy reminds me of Pandora. With some changes, of corse. Glimpse of Insanity with stat 4 is frustrating, as Stunned is essential for this crew. What do you think of making an 30mm Marker like the ice pillars, instead of an attack? Mayby 30mm Marker "Storm of Woes": Enemy  models that  start their activation within 1 of an Storm of Woes  Marker  must  either  discard  a card or gain Stunned. Misery Loves Company could have this Markers as target, instead of stunned models, by what theire movement would be less  dependent of positioning of opponent models.

Another idea is that a no-woe model that recives stunned near a Woe (maybe on other conditions too, but i don´t know if it would be to much), in addition gets paranoia. This Condition should do nothing on its own, but be just a "condition" to use by a woe. (Opportunist)

Also a trigger like Zombify could be a funny. Mayby with a Sorrow?  (Zombify: Living only. After killing, the target does not place any Markers. Summon a Mindless Zombie into base contact with the target.)

@HeavyMettle I don´t give up hope. Mayby because thats the last thing, that comes out of Pandoras Box and even through some guys say, that this is the worst bane.  But i understand your wife absolutly and have in parts the same feelings. It may be a good playstyle, but it´s not Pandora anymore. A friend of us just have Collodi and think about leave Malifaux. Of corse the DMH is playable, but is feels bad to play a stopgap.

My husband and i just play 5 of 10 Masters that we own at the moment (Kaeris, Rasputina, Reva, Molly and Seamus). Ramos, Lilith and Nicodem are DMH. Hoffman and Pandora are going a way, that is not ours.

First: Thanks for trying to make Pandora and the whole game better and implement the whishes of many players with different views how it should work. 👍

Second:  Like Neverbear, i tought of Molly too and was happy at first. Than on second sight, Mollys crew discards cards for an action and got an advantage on top. The Woes must work hard most of the time, to get Stunned on enemy models, just so that they may undo this for a in oposed duell. Not on damage-flips like with Fokus, but just one flip. That´s a bad joke in relevation to some other crews.

*sigh* In my opinion, Pandoras crew is not realy Woe anymore. Mayby the crunch is ok now, but for me, it doesn´t compare to the fluff of Pandora. She talks to/with her box and drives guys in misery. (By the way, "Misery likes company" let Sorrows jump to stunned enemys, so i thought "misery" mayby should give stuned, but than the rework would have to be bigger. ) Stunned reflects the woe really good, i think. But move-control? If i´m sad or depressed, i rather crouch than walk and my actions are not at 100%. 

What do you think about that:

Misery: After  an  enemy  model  within  4 Cheats  Fate,  it  suffers  1  damage  after resolving the current Action or Ability. (Like before)

Oportunist: If  this  model  targets  an enemy model with the Stunned Condition, it recives a  to that Action's duel. (Without removing Stunned)

Yeah, seems to be OP at first, but besides Pandora´s new "Dark Thoughts" and Candys "Corrupted Innocence" Stunned is not easy to give out and ends after an activision with the affected Model.

And please give Pandora and Candy a attack. Just if its just 0" for 1 damage, or stunned😉. The main point is, that they have an engage.

I like the idea, that the woe-crew has an advantage, if the opponent models have stunned. This mechanic is also on some crews with other conditions like burning-Karis and Poison-McMorning. Ok, those aditionaly deals damage. I actually don´t know about crews depended on conditions without dmg. With the new rule of stunned, it shoulnd´t be removed for the advantage. Aside from the crunch, why should somebody not be afraid or sad anymore, because of the evil grin of a woe, that enjoy your unpleasant situation?

Btw, i would like to have "Glimpse of Insanity" on the sorrows too, instead of "Startle". It is just a , what means once per model with a stat 4 and just that condition. "Misery Loves Company" would be easier to use and it would fit better. Moreover, if Pandora may not play with conditions from the opponent, than she should have the ability to spread her own.

Pandora was my first Master. I feel like one of her sad woes, because of so many problems with balancing her crew. Maybe the next update will dry some metaphorical tears. I hope that in the end, to play with her will be fun for both sides.

Realy? I hoped that Pandora would become better this week, but this feels like a bad joke. She looses a woe-specific ability for an ability with an affect, she could give herself either.

Dark Thoughts: Even after failing trigger would be much better, than after succeeding. But i don´t see after resolving to be overpowered. Since she has to hit back leaving her with an extra .

Bette isn´t untouchable. I don´t know the generel Options, but with Pandora, she is realy carefully. Pandoras Mood Swing let Bete activate early and if she dicides to burry, the Poltergeist remove her Blood-Token with Telekinisis. Than she wouldn´t be killed, but burry until the End.

Oh... You are right. Now i found the Rule for a Trigger without a timing. That´s realy realy bad. Than the Trigger is nearly useless. Maybe an "after resolving" would be better.

Pandory is not so squishy, as she seems at the first Moment, i think. Models with Ruthless ignored her Terrifing, but she can hit back everything, that pass her Terrifing, if she use Despair´s Influence on herself. (As long as she´s not stunned^^) It would be nice, if she had an ability like Shamus (special Feast on Fear) to heal her or an alternate to Terrifing, that weakened the attacks against her, other ways, Dark Thoughts triggers not so often even through auto trigger, because of loosing all her health. (Just dont give her Manipulative. She should be activeted early,  i think.)

My other thought is, that with her Totem, she can be realy anoing to crews, that benefit from markers. The Poltergeist just uses Telekinisis and remove all Markers in 4". Bete Noir looks a proper charly, if Misery let she activate early and the Poltergeist wait to remove her Blood-Marker. 

I´m so with you darksoul. Because of the story, i understand that Graves and Tannen just are Ten Thunder now. But specialy the new models of them yell "Neverborn". I would so much like to play them, but sadly they only looks good in my cabinet from now on. 

Thanks for the fast answer.

I did not see any difference between the old flight rules and the new ones. Because of that, i did not see the connection between this rules and the increasing of Mv.

In the last update, Mv of Mature Nephilim and Young Nephilim are Increased to 6. Now all Nephilim have Mv 6, but Lilitu. Is this intended, or was she just forgotten?