Mycellanious

1 hour ago, Sudsy said:

So...

Matt & Kyle are very clever with the naming of abilities - but I'm stumped on "Strike Between the Lines." Is there a trope I'm missing? Literary interpretation? Bowling? Fishing? Proofreading? Baseball? Labor negotiations??

(I'm going to feel dumb when I hear the answer, won't I...)

I thought it was a play on "read between the lines"

Neurotoxins: Enemy models with the Poison Condition within Aura-3 cannot use Soulstones or declare triggers

Expert Thief: Target a model that can use Soulstones

If a model that normally could use soulstones is currently affected by Neurotoxins, is it still a valid target for Actions or Abilities that require the target to be able to use Soulstones?

5 hours ago, vincent305 said:

My initial reaction to this is a disappointed one. I enjoyed having an aggressive Marcus or a tanky one. One of the appeals to Mali for me was the versatility that the master upgrade cards offered. I’m sure M3 gained in other areas though

Haha thats super funny because as a master Marcus has completely changed and his new playstyle revolves around... Upgrades! At the start of his turn he gets to attach one of his upgrades, so you can give him Armor, Onslaught, Flying etc.

7 hours ago, Higgybeans said:

So the abilities in question is Nellie's trigger.

Firstly do models count as engaged if either model is engaged? As most of the reporters don't have melee ranges, if an enemy model is engaging them, does the enemy model count as engaged too?

I seem to remember in this situation enemy models can just walk away, but can they drop scheme markers (ignoring other abilities like don't mind me).

Secondly (also ignoring other abilities) the enemy cannot choose to drop a scheme marker if within 4" of another, and would have to remove any in base contact, unless there is some specific mission interact action available?

1. There is a distinction between Engaged and Engaging. For this situation that means:

          a) Nellie can use One More Question on an Engaged Reporter and not have to worry about doing damage to them

          b) The enemy model can still Interact if it is Engaging a reporter without an Engagement Range

2. There are three things you can do with the Interact Action. You can drop a friendly scheme marker not within 4" of another friendly scheme marker, you can remove all scheme markers in base contact, or you can do something mission specific. So this is correct, Nellie's Trigger cannot be used to drop another Scheme Marker within 4" of an Existing Scheme Marker (friendly to the interacting model). 

3 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

The actual language of the shadow rules is here, and debunks your assertation.

"When drawing sight lines from one model to another, if either model is in the Shadow of terrain with Height equal to or greater than the Size of that model (even partially), any sight lines that pass through the terrain generating that Shadow are blocked (even if the terrain is being ignored due to its Height, as per the Line of Sight and Size rules on pg. 17)."

And
 
"Models within a terrain’s Shadow (even partially) have Cover against any  Actions that can draw one or more sight lines through that terrain"

So this tells us that sight lines are still blocked even if the terrain generating the shadow is being ignored due to height so long as the defending model is in shadow, and that since the sight lights are going through the terrain generating the shadow, the defending model has cover.

Its actually a bit more extreme than this. Any model in the shadoa of terrain will gain cover if sight lines from the attacker pass through it. A sz 2 model standing behind a ht 1 wall WILL GAIN COVER from a Sz 3 model trying to shoot it. What that rule specifies, is that a Sz 2 model 2" away from a size 2 wall cannot be seen by ANY SIZE model on the other side of the wall. If the Size 2 model were 2.1" away from the wall, then the wall does not give cover and sight lines are not blocked

On 12/24/2020 at 12:23 PM, santaclaws01 said:

 

And since we know that ignoring terrain means you're unaffected by its terrain traits, any opposed duel with a Sz 5+ model is ignoring the concealing of Lamp Markers.

As for why markers like underbrush or dust cloud markers still give concealment, they aren't Ht or Sz 0. They have no Ht stat and not having a Ht stat is not the same as the Ht stat being 0

No Ht stat means it can't be lower than either model, so it doesn't get ignored for LoS.

I do not believe this correct. According to pg. 28 digital, when drawing LoS to a marker without a Ht value it is treated as a Sz 0 model. Therefore according to this interpretation, underbrush markers would have no effect. Similarly, Scrapyard Mines, pit trap markers, Pyre markers, all would have no effect on enemy models. Furthermore this interpretation would dramatically change the way Malifaux is played, since all models would now ignore Ht 0 Severe rivers and Sz 4 models can walk through Ht 3 buildings as if they are incorporeal. 

Furthermore, the rule your interpretation is relying is found specifically under the LoS section of the rulebook, and not the Terrain section. This is relevant because it is prefraced specifically with "When drawing LoS," indicating that the terrain is ignored solely for LoS purposes. I think the claim that this sentence means that models are "uneffected" by terrain smaller than them is baseless, where does it say in the rules that models are uneffected by the terrain traits of terrain smaller than them?

You could take a look at Mei Feng. They are very fun to play; they alpha or play a tricksy game. 

They bring a lot of indirect damage to the table and a surprising amount of enemy movement capability. 

They are great at scoring positional schemes, killy schemes, or survival schemes, but poor at scheme marker placing*, removal, or schemes that require deep penetration behind enemy lines.

*this comes with the stipulation that the crew is phenomenal at leaving Engagement, so they are good at Interacting near enemy models.

17 minutes ago, HomelessOne said:

In my slice of the fanbase, EVS seems like the new Keyword (sorry Basse) generating the least excitement. The little mention they do seem to get in my circles is largely for OOK use, like Calypso, or Harpooners over in Apex. Talking with friends, we've come up with a few thoughts as to why:

1) Some of the least obvious Keyword abilities on paper. Deep Discovery and Reconfigure are good, obviously, but like a lot of odds/luck manipulation I think it can be difficult to fully understand how good without seeing them go off on the table yourself.

2) A more restrained and 'realistic' aesthetic than some of their peers. Obviously they do have some wacky stuff like a bathysphere mech and water elemental, but a chunk of the models look like "ordinary people" with regular jobs. This can be leveled at other keywords even within the same faction -Syndicate especially (People in suits! At least they have Price of Progress)- but it makes them struggle to stand out compared to stuff like the Cadmus and Seeker keywords.

3) Their lore is too HAPPY, lol. Besides Maxine's brain now having a touch o' the Burning Man, as a friend put it everybody's bios are basically "they love science, but what they love more is their bond with the rest of the crew".

Any thoughts? Anyone actually take Maxine for a spin? It's a little sad to see the thread slowly sinking toward page 2.

I've played them in vassal and think they are very fun. So far (3 games in) I feel more like I'm playing with myself than my opponent, in the sense that most of my brain power goes towards thinking about how to use my hand, and this card will go here which lets this guy go here and lets him draw some cards which lets me do this with him, but I should wait on that until I activate this guy so I can draw that specific card from my discard pile that the other guy wants to use during that activation, and oops looks like I managed to kill something while doing all that. 

23 hours ago, Commoner1 said:

You sum up my problem nicely. There are so many solid choices that I'm almost confused. It's not like my other Guild masters where you pick versatiles and OOKs anyway to have a fighting chance against an equal opponent.

There are some models I'm not sure about like Joss. On paper he looks awesome, but his skills feel a bit all over the place and his use of power tokens is less generally useful than Melissa's or Howard's.

Another example is the Hunter. I really like the concept, but I don't see a reason besides the rather high cost why it's so disliked in this forum.

 

 

possibly because Arcanists have better options for Speed in that price range. In Guild, Hunters are very speedy for their tankiness. If you need cheap schemers you take Watchers, which you can also take in Guild. They aren't really competing with Hunters. In the mid range (6-8 stones) model range for Arcanists you have some phenomenal schemers:

1. Soulstone Miners that can Unbury almost anywhere on the board and get you SS back. 

2. Steam Arachnid Swarm. As fast as a Hunter, higher damage output, and can put out 2 Scheme Markers a turn. 

And that is also assuming you dont just go big and take the Mechanical Rider, which is probably the best Scheme Runner in the game, with comparable damage output and more survivability. 

21 minutes ago, Adran said:

Doesn't it happen in StepC3, which according to the FAQ question you are referring to still counts as part of the models activation for the purposes of once per activation effects. 

Oh ok cool. I wanted it to work but we've been playing that it doesnt

16 hours ago, Azahul said:

I'm genuinely confused as to what Enforcers I'm meant to be looking at. First, I didn't suggest taking Abuela to compensate for low stats, I was saying that the stats are good even before she gets involved. Francisco is a 7, so already top tier. Nino is 5 with a built in positive and ignores cover and concealment. Five with a positive is a hugely useful tool, I play a lot of Parker Barrows and I generally think it's more useful than a straight six thanks to the ability to ignore a lot of defensive rules with it (setting aside the fact that Nino already ignores several of those rules). If you're looking for models with rules and gimmicks to offset their low stats, Nino definitely meets that metric. Most of the crew in my experience A Por Els to Nino when they can thanks to the built in Family Values often giving the card back. Santiago is a Stat 6, which is not low for his bracket. What else should he be, a 7?

 

I'll admit, I'm not enormously impressed with Papa Loco or the Minions, but mostly I was just wondering which stats exactly are considered low. I guess I just value five with a positive unusually highly?

FYI you cant draw a card from Nino using A Por EL! This is because Family Values is a Once Per Activation trigger, which per the FAQ cannot be declared outside of an Activation. And since A Por El! happens at the end of a model's Activation, it is after the Activation Phase.

My first impressions are that the Faction is very powerful, I expect it to top tournments very consistently. I'd expect some nerfs...

It also feels like a step back towards 2e. Actions and Abilities were standardized in the transition to 3e but it seems like there are a lot of models in the ES that have unique abilities only on that model with really cool and quirky names. 

10 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

.... but she is the only one without unique actions as a whole, now.

Sometimes what makes a model powerful is not how unique or special its Actions are but the combination of those abilities on the same card, or even in the context of its Keyword

19 minutes ago, Adran said:

I would say it can only declare it once. 

Thats gonna suck for English Ivan lol

if a Once Per Activation trigger is declared, but unable to resolve, can it be declared on another Action?

For example, the Survivors must declare triggers on their guns, and have a Once Per Activation trigger (after succeeding) to do 1 dmg to the target, 1 dmg to themselves, and then drop a Scrap Marker in base contact with the Target. If the Target is killed by the initial damage flip, the effects of the Trigger are ignored because there is no Target. Could the Survivor then declare that Trigger on his next Action, or because it was declared that takes up its Once Per Activation?

To clarify, Discard a Card is not a cost of the Action (Italics) and you try to perform the effects of the Action in the order they are listed. So you try to discard a card, then try to draw a card.

4 hours ago, DumbLuck said:

Is that how it works?  The Rules manual in the triggers section says that all triggers are subject to the same game effects as the action, The action has a range, wouldn't that mean that the range applies to the trigger as well?  The action also requires line of sight, wouldn't that apply too?

In the Beta the Action specified "within range" (which would exclude the Rider remember) but was changed to allow it to be global

1 hour ago, extremor said:

So is Ferdinand Vogel best of both worlds? He seems to be independent from Marcus‘ Mutation shenanigans, right?

@Mycellaniousdo you use ancient pact a lot?

 

Considering I am an Arcanist Player, no. I probably would in Neverborn tho

Oh! And Vogel is definitely a Drain. His Shapechange takes a card, so on turns you want to use that (which is often) he drains cards. That said, in niche circumstances he is a producer, since as Vogel is can draw cards from File Papers and a Surge trigger (very unreliable). That said I put Vogel in most of my lists and think he's awesome (but I am biased he's probably my favorite model in the game). He brings a LOT of unique things to the Keyword. Off the top of my head:

1. Shielded (impassioned defense is such a great ability)

2. The ability to heal non-beasts (including those versatiles!)

3. Ranged attack (Paul has range too, but Vogel's is non-projectile and a better stat)

4. Targets Willpower

5. Is one of the 5 models in Arcanists with access to Stunned lol

6. The ability to move MARCUS and get him out of engagements

7. A 2" engagement range

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I was just thinking about this.

On paper, it seems to me like too many beasts is a bad thing? After 2-3 beasts, you just end up with everything competing for upgrades, I assume.

Do you find yourself taking heaps of versatiles & OOKs?

I've had similar thoughts and that can definitely be a tactic to take, but I find the power of a Chimera keyword is in the casual way they disregard Engagement, or are able to react to game changes instantly. Since you cant move Versatile model models, I can feel a bit frustrated with them. For me, you need to be very aware of what your producers and consumers are in a Chimera crew. Your true Beasts often take cards from your hand, while the Living models draw you cards. So I like taking Initiates to generate resources for me and get a solid Activation while supporting my other models and remaining flexible

14 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, as above, the only way to safely pull it off is if you do this:

• Turn one move somewhere safe.
• End of turn 2, move into position.
• Start of turn 3 nuke (and possibly move away).

So that's three activations of an 11 stone to setup a pulse. It SHOULD do a ton of damage. Any other use, and you can stop the Dead Rider by smacking it around. It is pretty fragile if it isn't jumping through hoops to stay alive (it only has 9 health).

And keeping 11 stones of your crew out of the first 40% of the game is a huge risk against aggressive crews. So it really only works against defensive crews.

That said, it works SO well against defensive crews that it feels pretty imbalanced against say some Outcast crews (though I'm not sure about competitive Outcast crews). So on those grounds, I wouldn't object to seeing it reduced to a 3" pulse.

Well its not exactly wasting those first few activations right. Most models no matter their cost Walk and Concentrate Turn 1 anyway. Riders actually are more efficient Turn 1 than most since they typically Ride With Me a model up the board, then Walk, then Concentrate. So its Turn 1 is far from wasted. Turn 2 is absolutely the weakest Turn for Rider's no disagreement here, although this is both true of all the Rider's and even still the Dead Rider serves as a fantastic deterrent, since if you cross the centerline the Dead Rider can still output significant damage with its Mele attack while staying relatively safe. And since Turn 2 is the turn you start scoring, having a Mv 7, Min 3 beater is in itself a great denial piece. But I definitely agree, Rider's aren't really worth their stones Turn 2. I will even say that in games with the Dead Rider I usually take the lead Turn 2. The problem is that the game isn't decided on Turn 2, and as soon as the Rider Activates Turn 3, the game is generally decided. It's Activation Turn 3 just consistently massively swings the game state in its favor single handedly, and there isn't all that much that can be done to mitigate it. The Pale Rider is quite good and reliable but its expected output is significantly lower. The Hooded Rider has a higher potential, but its not nearly as reliable, for about the same expected output. The Dead Rider is so good, because it both has a very high expected damage output, and very high reliability to output that damage. 

9 minutes ago, IronmanKC81 said:

Again, the ability typically isn't used that often by the more experienced players. Apply even a slight bit of pressure on the rider in early turns and fate tokens are spent on defense, not on offense. The rider is good, don't get it twisted, but the revel in death ability isn't the game breaking destroyer of worlds that you believe it is. 

In your own screenshot the rider can't see that many models with the building, and the forest. In your own example walking twice and doing 6 damage with 3 injured over 3 different models isn't game breaking. Lots of AP/resources go into making that happen. 

Revel in death isn't the best ability on the dead rider. Its reap, that and defense is where my crows go. 

 

 

well actually the Rider can see the 3 closest models to its theoretical positions. I just picked the first listed map and placed my models, considering terrain, the distance they would need to be to not have 3 people within the aura at one time. I didnt ignore the terrain on that map, so the Rider's range was illegally ignoring the buildings. Walking twice and doing 6 (conservative) damage is in fact very close to game breaking for me, because of the sheer range of the ability. Doing 6 damage to targets around 18" away is absolutely massive, especially considering it was very likely your last activation turn 3, and will be your first activation turn 4. The Dead Rider by himself has single handedly taken on 30 ss of my crews, and consistently won. 

Even if you play conservatively with the Rider and keep it just barely outside your deployment zone, and therefore outside of your opponents threat ranges, its own threat range covers upwards of 60% of the board. If you are playing more aggressively and have the Rider near the center, in which case its threat range is actually the entire board. The point being, that it is VERY difficult to hide your models from its pulse, and also VERY difficult to spread out far enough to mitigate its effects. 

6 hours ago, IronmanKC81 said:

 

There is more setup than that, but I understand what you're saying. If you get caught on turn 3 or later with 5 models in the aura, that sounds more like a you problem, not a problem with the rider. Again, its an ability I don't use that often. In fact the last 4 games I've played with the rider I did it once and I caught 4 models in it, 2 had armor  and only one model went down. The model going down scored me a VP, but that model was almost dead anyways and the VP would have been scored regardless. 

 

 

No offense, but you guys keep changing the numbers and exaggerating things. I agree, if you can hit 5 models with it at once you've made a significant mistake. But my point is that you dont need to hit FIVE models for the ability to be VERY good. Shockwaves and Pulses become efficient when they hit 2+ models at once. If the Rider can get 3 models in its pulse for example, its expected damage output is somewhere around 9-12 damage (because on a straight flip you are more likely to hit moderate and severe than weak). 9-12 damage from an irresistible, single Bonus Action is VERY good. Due to the size of the Rider's Pulse it is VERY difficult to put your crew into a position where less than THREE models are in range for it at any given time. 

When people say "don't clump up" that generally refers to things like Blasts (be 2" apart) or Shockwaves (be 3" apart). "Don't clump up" for the Rider is closer to meaning "be 14" apart," which in Malifaux is a MASSIVE distance equal to the longest ranges in the game and significantly more than the overwhelming majority of models are capable of moving in a single turn. So when people say "just don't clump up for the Rider," it really is quite difficult to do so because you only need to be moderately in the vicinity of each other to be "clumped up" for the Rider. I have attached an example of just how spread out your average crew of 8 models would need to be in order for the Rider to only hit two at once (although I think ironically you could be more efficient if you clumped up more and put two models together at a time)

I also do not really think "just take armored models" is a very viable strategy, since Armor is generally more oriented toward Keyword choice than individual model choice (I think Stunned, and to a lesser extent Shielded also fall into this category). Furthermore, unless your entire Crew is Armored, the Rider will be able to pick out the unarmored models with ease due to its extreme mobility. I understand that in your specific example, only 1 model actually died, but A) how much damage was done in total.  B) What did the Rider do with its other 2 Actions   C) What was the rest of the crew doing? Because even assuming it walked twice to get into position, doing 2 damage to 4 models for a total of 6 damage after the armor, then injuring all of them is MASSIVE for the rest of the Rider's Crew

24 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For the record, I think it should be reduced to a 3" pulse, but hitting 3 models off it isn't too big a deal. That's  a maximum of 12 damage (if you're cheating severes).

If you power up another model to the same degree, you can easily hit 12 damage - throw some focus and 3 severes to Teddy, and he can hit 18 damage somewhat consistently.

So I think there's a few elements to the Dead Rider:

1. People misplay and don't mitigate the pulse to do 4-10 damage instead of 15-20.
2. It is flashy and attention-grabbing, so more likely to be considered overpowered.
3. In some situations it probably IS overtuned/overpowered (a game where people have to take the centre or lose is not going to go well against riders).

There's also an argument to be made that the defensive mechanic is too much. Their maneuverability is pretty good at keeping them alive already, so the defense trigger seems OTT. That said, it is necessary against shoot-y crews.

It is tricky, as the model is a LOT weaker against some crews, so that is a significant consideration in nerfs. If it is tuned down to average against all crews, and weak against others, it is a shit model.

12 damage from an irresistable bonus action is what I would call quite a lot of damage. The analogy to Teddy doesnt quite pay off firstly because it is an opposed duel rather than a simple duel, and secondly stacking focus on a model is quite difficult. Your analogy requires Teddy to have been preset up with 3 AP worth of set up (3 Focus) and be in position to use 2 Actions attacking, where the Rider only requires waiting until turn 3 and a single bonus action worth of set up. I also dont think its fair to assume the player is consistently having to cheat for damage on the Rider, because a straight flip is more likely to hit mod / severe than weak. It cant be evaluated like a regular damage track. Im also curious to hear how you are "mitigating" the damage

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, Reap is by far the best attack trigger out of all the riders IMO (although Arcanists get close). So that's why the overall power is pretty high.

Plus lots of people makes mistakes and clump their models so Dead Rider can hit 5+ models with his ultimate, and then it seems really overpowered. And of course some pools force you to clump up, where it really is devastating. It is a very swing-y ability, sometimes just winning the game on the spot.

If it was as 3" pulse, it wouldn't win the game on the spot as often, but would still be worth using in heaps of scenarios.

I think placing the blame on people who "clump up" is a bit disingenuous. The area this ability affects is massive. Its a circle with about a 14" diameter, or about 12% of the entire board. Considering that diameter is larger than the vast majority of models are capable of moving in a single Activation, and its very easy to hit 3 models with it at a time, esspecially considering most models wants to be in the general vicinity of other models because of the range of beneficial Actions or Abilities. Trying to position 8 models on your half of the board with only having 2 be withing 14" of eachother at any time is difficult even on an empty board.