Mycellanious

Just to add on here, pass tokens arent even perfect at balancing out activations. I've played against summoners who use the tactic of activating the summoner last, summoning a bunch of cheap models, then getting 2-4 activations that you cant respond to. Sure, you also get 2-4 pass tokens, but they are worthless if you dont have any model's activations left to hold. Removing their ability to affect initiative (without replacing it with something else) would defeat the purpose of pass tokens as a check to summoners, and in turn strengthen some of the strongest masters in the game. 

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Interesting finds!

One bit I'm unclear on is drawing LOS to the marker with Parker. I thought models essentially ignore terrain that is shorter for LOS.

So parker can see and do stuff with the marker (but if it was a size 0 model, it would qualify for cover because of the shadow)?

I thought shadows were primarily for cover, but I do remember something quirky about being right next to a building...

In addition to what Leper said, Markers are called out as specifically being treated as Models for the purposes of LoS

The rules for elevation in this game are kind of convoluted (though they are much better than 2E), and have resulted in some wonky situations in games I've played. These are the ways I think these situations resolve based on my understanding of the rules, however I think they are a little unintuitive so I am looking for confirmation that we are playing things correctly. 

The equation for determining the distance between two objects on the board is:  "Horizontal Distance" + "Total Height of the Base of the Higher Object" - "Size or Height of the Lower Object" (p. 49 book)

So, say Mei Feng is standing on a Scrap Marker on ground leve. She attempts to RtR to another maker on top of a height 2 wall. The Marker is 12" horizontally from her. The distance between her and the Marker is (12")+(2")-(2") for a total of 12" of distance, so she can RtR.

However, if she were starting atop the wall and trying to RtR back to the Scrap marker she just came from, suddenly the equation becomes (12")+(2")-(0") for a total of 14" of distance because Markers are by default considered to have a Height of 0 (pg 64). So she could not RtR back to the Marker she just came from. 

Shockwave effects have a similar quirk because they drop Shockwave Markers. Wille for example could Toss Dynamite on to a Hieght 2 wall 8" away, but could not drop a Shockwave from atop that wall to his previous position. Effectively, the range of the action is reduced by the Height of the wall. 

Next, the way that Pulses and Auras work with low Walls is quirky. Because of the Shadow rules on p. 54, any model standing even partially in the Shadow of Terrain equal to or greater than its size has all Sight Lines that pass through the terrain blocked, even if the 2nd model is larger than the intervening terrain and supposedly ignoring it (also p. 54). Therefore, while separated by a Height 1 wall, and the Forgeling is within 1" of it, Kang and the Forgeling do NOT have LoS to each other and would NOT be affected by each other's Pulses, unlike in 2E where Kang could "lean over the wall."

Markers generally aren't considered Models, however according to pg 64, when drawing LoS to a Marker it is "treated as a model with Sz 0." Do Pulses and Auras, which have a LoS requirement, trigger this clause? For example, if Parker were standing behind a Height 1" and attempted to use Cashing Out, he would be UNABLE to remove Marker A, because it is a Sz 0 model in the Shadow of a Height 1 wall and therefore not in his LoS. He would however be able to remove Marker B even though it is further away. 

But what happens in the inverse situation? Say the Mech Rider, a towering Sz 3 model, were trying to use Revel in Creation to Drop a Scheme Marker just on the other side of a Height 1 wall. Because Mech Rider's Sz is greater than the Height of the wall, she ignores it for the purposes of LoS. So when she takes the Bonus Action, the space within 1" of the wall is within her Pulse because it is both within Range and LoS. However, if she were to Drop a Marker in that same space, she would be unable to draw LoS to the Marker because it is a Height 0 model in the Shadow of a Height 1 wall. Does this mean she cannot place the Marker, since she would not have LoS to it and therefore the closest place she could drop it is Marker B's position, or is having LoS to the space on the board she is going to drop it enough? 

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

The cost for Reload is "End the Focus Condition on this model".

I dont think you need to have Focus to use Reload. Just if you have it, end it.

6 hours ago, Adran said:

Yes and no. Its not a timing issue like Terrifying and take the hit.  As I said, Obey has a targeting restriction which take the hit ignores. So if a patrol uses take the hit to become the target of an obey it has been obeyed, so it couldn't be targeted by an obey itself, but it is still able to use take the hit again to be targeted by and obey because Take the hit specifically says it ignores targeting restrictions.

Right, if Amina uses Obey on Izamu, and an Ashigaru uses Take the Hit, BOTH models would be inelegible to be targeted by her second Action Obey because both have already been "targetted" this Activation correct?

4 hours ago, Adran said:

As written you have already targeted an executioner with Obey, so no more obeys on that.

I see the This action can not target a model more than once per activation as a targeting  restriction,  which Take the hit ignores, so If it took the hit on 1 obey, it can still take the hit on another obey in the same activation.

Isnt this just another version of Terrifing and Take the Hit? Wouldnt it count as targeting both models, so neither could be Obeyed?

The Ice Golem would like to respectfully submit an application for the 5 minimum club

Definitely Winged Plague or Benny in crew of cute kitties.

25 minutes ago, Morkai5 said:

Neverborn is maybe the worst faction nowadays, so, you can pick anything!

*cries in Guild*

3 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

One of the problems of miniatures games compared to board games or CCGs is that miniatures games have models, and people love the models.  They buy them, assemble them, paint them, and then are emotionally attached to them, all before they hit the table.  So they mentally want the models to perform well.  If the game is reasonably balanced, a lot of the time it's possible to argue that even a shoddy model "did okay".  After all, a 5 stone model that's a competent scheme runner and dies to a stiff breeze might do the same job as a 4 stone model.  But it did a job.  

In a CCG or board game, if something sucks people just don't build it.  So with Twilight Imperium you don't get someone telling you that Diplomacy is a great pick or Arborec is top tier because no one has a that emotional attachment.  And it's always made conversations around miniatures games hard.

 

I like the focus on keywords that need boosts over models, because it's easier to admit that Sandeep or Dreamer might be a little much, while Euripides and Mei Fang need some serious help.

Out of curiosity, whats wrong with Mei Feng

54 minutes ago, Adran said:

 

In normal circumstances not a bomb prevents the shock wave pulse from happening. 

Why?

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

And one for the head and one for the tail, four in total.

Structural integrity is important.

You have to attack the feet first. Then, once you kill them that you take them off and the body slots into a 50mm base

5 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Clearly it should be a 30mm base, to maximise hyjinks.

https://www.wyrd-games.net/news/2020/6/10/waldos-weekly-welcome-to-the-jungle

It should be two 30mm bases, one for each foot

4 hours ago, LeperColony said:

Yeah, this isn't an original mechanic by any stretch of the imagination.  Warmahordes has extra theme points too.

One issue I did encounter concerns stronger keywords.

People like Som'er I tried to give much less impressive upgrades.  Makes sense at first.  But then the opportunity cost for them to hire OOK/Versatiles is much less.

Of course, my goal isn't to eliminate OOK/Versatile hiring.  But rather, it's to try and fight against "always take" type models, or to provide a thematic alternative to super friends lists.

Idk this feels a lot like simply a clunkier version of what we already have, unless I supposed these new upgrade would be perfectly instituted and never need to be errated themselves. It would mean that keywords with one overperforming model would have all their models nerfed, or weak crews with one strong model would result in that model getting stronger. It feels inelegant, where the solution should simply be to buff one model, or nerf one, or take from one to give to another. 

I've been playing a but of December on Vassal and I'll echo most of your points and add some more. 

1. December's drains more of their own resources than their opponents. 

2. They have a lot of 50mm models, and often mess up their own charge lanes. 

3. In addition to 2, December oftens gives their opponents cover. In order to benefit from Harsh Winter or Sacrifice to December, the model needs to be near a Pillar, which often gives it cover since all your ranged attacks are projectiles. 

4. They have almost 0 useful bonus actions. Most turns I dont use any bonus actions on any models, because they are all extrememly situational and only moderately useful. 

5. Snow Storm sucks. He's very squishy and doesnt being much for 9 stones except anti-shooting. Mostly you hire him to shockwave your crew twice turn 1 and thats it. 

My potential solutions:

1. Allow Ice Mirror models to create a Pillar for free at the start of deployment

2. Allow the Ice Gamin and Golem to move through Ice Pillars. Alternatively, make it a leader ability for Raspy

3. Allow them to ignore Ice Pillars for determining cover

4. They need new bonus actions. Horcats should have Ambush definitely, and shouldnt need to discard a card for it when near an Ice Pillar. Tbh, what I would do is change Ice Pillars to a bonus action. This relieves some pressure and limits the number of Ice Pillars you can put out, so they can be better.

5. Snow Storm should get Hard to Wound if Wyrd wants him to be mele focused, or his bonus actiom should be able to target any minion or non-master December model (including himself) if they want him to fill a supportive role.

Thoughts?

7 minutes ago, cktAvatar said:

What do you mean with this "new" reading? Did I miss something here?

So the FAQ specifies that "Another" always means "Not the model taking the Action" excpet in cases where that doesnt make gramatical sense (ex. Another scrap marker)

In the case of the Richochet trigger, that means RAW you can apply Richochet to the model you attacked (because it is not the model that took the Action and it is always within 3" of itself), so all models with Richochet have their damage tracks increased by 1/2/4.

In addition, the FAQ clarifed that all triggers are subject to Focus and Accuracy Modifiers. So if you spend focus you get a positive to the attack and a positive to an additional 1/2/4 unavoidable damage on the same target. 

8 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

The answer is B for both. 

The model gains the Abilities from the upgrade, therefore the model with the upgrade has done the damage in both cases.

I think you misunderstand, in the case of the Strategy friendly refers to friendly to the enemy. So, if Sparks puts his upgrade on a metal Gamin, that Gamin is attacked by Seamus, and the Blast from Seamus' attack, which was placed by Sparks because of the upgrade on the Gamin, kills a nearby Dead Doxy, who gets the kill credit? Is the Blast considered "generated by a friendly Seamus" or "generated by an enemy Sparks" or "generated by an enemy Metal Gamin" from the perspective of the Dead Doxy

33 minutes ago, Pallas4 said:

Thanks

so I was right but a confirmation may help other player in same case.

If however, the action was a Replace, then it totally would count as the same model. Yan Lo can do this with his Reliquaries for instance

Sparks attaches Bombs In Yer Belly to a friendly model. Later, the Upgraded model is attacked by an Enemy, and the Blast resulting from that attack kills an Enemy. Who gets Bounty Tokens?

A. Sparks, because he placed the Blast Market / Attached the Upgrade

B. Any model friendly to Sparks in LoS, because the Blast was generated by an Enemy Attack Action

C. No one because the damage came from the Upgrade\

Same question, but for the Explosive +3 Demise effect granted by the Upgrade.

Same question again, but with regards to the Vent Steam Action. 

32 minutes ago, Da Git said:

wait???? Ikiryo is weak????

She's quite strong, especially if you can get 2 activations a turn out of her! 2/3/4 IRREDUCIBLE is nothing to sneeze at. Add this to terrifying, Incorporeal & Vengeance and you've got yourself a quality beater whose also quite fast at Mv6 & Incorporeal.

2/3/4 irreducible, Onslaught, and stoning for Coordinated Strike from Kirai... its a blender

6 minutes ago, Adran said:

As far as I can see, there is no difference in what caused you to do something in Hazadous terrain. If you die due to damage from hazardous terrain you don't count as killed by a particular model. (That's what the rule book says).

 

 

I was also refering to Vent Steam. Mei generates the Vent Steam action, but she doesnt generate the Walk action that killed Mad Dog

3 hours ago, Adran said:

Did it ? It suffered the effect of Hazadous terrain because of an enemy controlled ability, but it was killed by hazardous terrain, which is specified to count as not killed by a player/ model or crew (Otherwise you could also claim it was killed by the obey that made it take an action, or the walk the model itself used to move through the hazardous). See page 25 of the electronic rules, section on killed.

That would also apply to models like the Guild Steward when it's working out who killed it.

 

But was it an enemy controlled ability that killed it? The damage was taken because of the models own friendly walk action. Its there a difference between a model suiciding in Hazardous and being moved by and enemy effect inside hazardous with regards to kill credit?

1 hour ago, Trample said:

I probably wouldn't. One should, in my opinion, bring a crew they have a reasonable expectation of completing a standard game. That doesn't mean you always will complete the game, but it seems like a good  point of etiquette to make the effort to do so. 

I'm amazed how often people bring new crews to tournaments. Like, of course you arent going to make it to turn 5 if you've never played the crew. Of course you are going to run out of time if you own 7 crews and only played each twice. A big reason I can finish my games is because I own 2 crews, I've played them dozens of times, and even now 4 months into Rona I can tell you nearly everything about my Chimera models, and absolutely everything about my Foundry models, w/o looking

2 hours ago, Ming said:

Activation control is already good on its own. Plus you get the condition at the start phase, so Tormented can hit you before your activation(s).

Additionaly Monty has extra tricks that prevent you from ending Staggered and damage you for activating with it.

For sure, but that requires Monty being nearby, which can be tough, and having initiative. Like if he puts the upgrade on my Master and I get initiative the staggered doesnt particularly matter. And even if he gets initiative, he has 1 activation to make use of it before I activate the model (which can certainly be all he needs considering he likely On Your Heel's to that model at the end of the last turn)

2 hours ago, Adran said:

I don't have a lot of Jack experience, but I thought the best bit about the upgrade was it was an upgrade, so allows all your card draw, bonus damage etc. 

Oh yea thats all great, but I thought it was weird that the Master's Action Upgrade wasnt as good (or bad?) an upgrade as the Hangeds or the Guilty's. Like I actively try to avoid killing the Guilty or cheat to avoid the Hanged's upgrade, but I dont really care about Jack's.